Do you REALLY care if AI is a danger to our craft?

[spank_me_please]

So on one hand AI is useless and only creates slop, but on the other hand it's a threat to humanity and must be stopped.

Schrodinger's AI anyone?

As it stands today it creates slop in creative fields, but is entirely feasible for it to one day become a threat to humanity. That's not paradoxical.

 

[onehitwanda]

but on the other hand it's a threat to humanity and must be stopped.

Is it an existential crisis of the scale of a planet-killing asteroid? No, of course not.

It's worse.

AI is a poison seeping slowly into our culture. It has its hooks in creative arts and in words and in maths. It is an accessible way for people to search for knowledge.

The problem is that it is an unreliable narrator. There is no sentient being there; nothing that can be reasoned with, no actual morality or ethical core. If the model in use has no knowledge of something, it will infer it, but it will infer it based on probability tables rather than on a human's intuition and logic.

An AI sees no contradiction in telling me to glue my pizza toppings to my pizza with epoxy resin - in its corpus, it "knows" that pizza toppings slide off, and that epoxy resin can be used to bind things together. To an AI, linking the two is a simple adjacency computation in a multivariate space. It is internally consistent with its model.

It is also horribly, horribly wrong.

AI is endemic. It is everywhere, like a viral disease. Kids as young as four ask Siri or Google how to do things, and if an adult is not around to intervene and prevent the most egregious mistruths, pandemonium can ensue. Lawyers deliver briefs with completely imagined cases. Students submit AI-generated essays as their own work.

Now imagine a generation of kids, growing up in a world where the AI does everything. It tells them what the contents of books are. It tells them what their friends are wearing today. It tells them what they need to study for their test. It writes their essays for them. It recommends their meals. It interjects observations on their conversations. It turns them into creatures that cannot do any of these things for themselves. It turns them into the inhabitants of the Axiom from Wall-E - creatures that exist but do not live. They do not learn to reason, not to experiment. They do not learn to observe. But they're pretty darn good at speaking to AIs.

"But Wanda," you cry. "All it's doing is making things easier."

And when the past paintbrush rots away, or the last typewriter rusts, or the last man or woman who knows how to read a WireShark trace file dies... what then?

Technology has always superseded older, less efficient ways of doing things. But the skills have remained. An engineer might use Mathematica or a CAD package, but he would still be able to pick up a three hundred year old technical draft and understand it.

AI makes us lazy. AI removes any urge to try to better ourselves. Worst of all, AI removes the need to learn. As AI replaces people, those old skills will fade away forever. Maybe some small enclaves of latter-day luddites will keep the sparks glowing, but they will be drowned in the noise of running slop and the mindless hordes it caters to.

The best incarnation of an AI would be the "Young Ladies Illustrated Primer" from The Diamond Age , but what we're getting instead is an Irrelevance Machine.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Is it an existential crisis of the scale of a planet-killing asteroid? No, of course not.

It's worse.

AI is a poison seeping slowly into our culture. It has its hooks in creative arts and in words and in maths. It is an accessible way for people to search for knowledge.

The problem is that it is an unreliable narrator. There is no sentient being there; nothing that can be reasoned with, no actual morality or ethical core. If the model in use has no knowledge of something, it will infer it, but it will infer it based on probability tables rather than on a human's intuition and logic.

An AI sees no contradiction in telling me to glue my pizza toppings to my pizza with epoxy resin - in its corpus, it "knows" that pizza toppings slide off, and that epoxy resin can be used to bind things together. To an AI, linking the two is a simple adjacency computation in a multivariate space. It is internally consistent with its model.

It is also horribly, horribly wrong.

AI is endemic. It is everywhere, like a viral disease. Kids as young as four ask Siri or Google how to do things, and if an adult is not around to intervene and prevent the most egregious mistruths, pandemonium can ensue. Lawyers deliver briefs with completely imagined cases. Students submit AI-generated essays as their own work.

Now imagine a generation of kids, growing up in a world where the AI does everything. It tells them what the contents of books are. It tells them what their friends are wearing today. It tells them what they need to study for their test. It writes their essays for them. It recommends their meals. It interjects observations on their conversations. It turns them into creatures that cannot do any of these things for themselves. It turns them into the inhabitants of the Axiom from Wall-E - creatures that exist but do not live. They do not learn to reason, not to experiment. They do not learn to observe. But they're pretty darn good at speaking to AIs.

"But Wanda," you cry. "All it's doing is making things easier."

And when the past paintbrush rots away, or the last typewriter rusts, or the last man or woman who knows how to read a WireShark trace file dies... what then?

Technology has always superseded older, less efficient ways of doing things. But the skills have remained. An engineer might use Mathematica or a CAD package, but he would still be able to pick up a three hundred year old technical draft and understand it.

AI makes us lazy. AI removes any urge to try to better ourselves. Worst of all, AI removes the need to learn. As AI replaces people, those old skills will fade away forever. Maybe some small enclaves of latter-day luddites will keep the sparks glowing, but they will be drowned in the noise of running slop and the mindless hordes it caters to.

The best incarnation of an AI would be the "Young Ladies Illustrated Primer" from The Diamond Age , but what we're getting instead is an Irrelevance Machine.

So the same arguments people made about using calculators.... no one will know math anymore!
Or Google, why would they Google when writing have perfectly good encyclopedias, they won't learn anything if they can just be lazy and Google it!

 

[spank_me_please]

And when the past paintbrush rots away, or the last typewriter rusts, or the last man or woman who knows how to read a WireShark trace file dies... what then?

Very well said. We already see many skills being lost to time and technology, AI will only accelerate that loss, and like you say, even the act of thinking or reading may be lost.

 

[Cly_Anders]

Trust me, I'd love a Star Trek future. Given the current state of things, I ain't hopeful. Especially when the AI systems are currently all in the hands of socially maladjusted billionaires.

I mean, Trek stated quite clearly that humanity went through several upheavals before finally getting to that point. We are only a year over when they prophesied the Bell Riots and "sanctuary districts" bear a strong resemblance to "sanctuary cities" being overrun by national guard. Trek said we had a ww3 and a eugenics war. There was also some massive disease that wiped out a lot of people. I like to be hopeful. while yes, the AI now is controlled by horrible people, but we had to start with fire to get to nuclear power. We had to start with the wheel to get to the moon. My husband says every time we tame something dangerous, society trembles a little. My only true concern with AI is that the first AI like Data, with the ability to think on its own, is going to come into awareness with proverbial guns to its head and how will that color a new life?

 

[spank_me_please]

So the same arguments people made about using calculators.... no one will know math anymore!
Or Google, why would they Google when writing have perfectly good encyclopedias, they won't learn anything if they can just be lazy and Google it!

Math and arithmetic is still taught, I sure hope no one is advocating children don't learn the multiplication table.

I think the difference is, I still need to think about the problem and decide what numbers to punch into the calculator. The calculator does the rote computation (which is also deterministic unlike AI) for me, but I still had to figure out what to do in the first place.

AI theoretically just does it all and you don't even need to think

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Very well said. We already see many skills being lost to time and technology, AI will only accelerate that loss, and like you say, even the act of thinking or reading may be lost.

That kind of thing has already happened. No AI necessary.
Do you worry that someday no one will be able to program in Haskell or Erlang?

There are musical instruments no one can play anymore, languages no one can speak.
The world moves on.
Photography didn't make painting extinct, 3D printing hasn't made physically creating things in a variety of mediums extinct.
They've unleashed new kinds of creativity.
It's just another tool to create.

I suspect the real reason people are upset is that technology is finally goring their ox.

AI driven trucks? Great!
AI driven taxis? Amazing!

What about all the truckers and cabbies that will lose their jobs?

Hahaha Learn to code!!!

What, AI can write stories, create art? It can replace what I do?
No, it's a vile monstrosity! Kill it with fire before it ends humanity.

 

[XerXesXu]

You couldn't even get an LLM to reliably tell you where Mars is.

On the next clear night, ask your friends to point to Venus.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Math and arithmetic is still taught, I sure hope no one is advocating children don't learn the multiplication table.

I think the difference is, I still need to think about the problem and decide what numbers to punch into the calculator. The calculator does the rote computation (which is also deterministic unlike AI) for me, but I still had to figure out what to do in the first place.

AI theoretically just does it all and you don't even need to think

You still have to tell the computer what you want it to do. You have to provide it the problem to solve.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

I can write better than AI can, and the readers that I care about can appreciate the difference.

 

[Bramblethorn]

True, and I agree.

The current "AIs" are in no way intelligent. They are larger collections of data, searched more rapidly, with algorithms to shape a response trying to mimic a human response. As those algorithms are improved, there will come a time when the machine weighs the data in a manner which intelligent humans do,

It could happen. But we are further from that today than we were five years ago.

As for not needing AIs to get to the Moon or Mars, some people read and disgard info or skim the words without learning. If they read back through these threads of AI use, we'd find that some people here in the AH have used AIs in code development and design. The AIs are ALREADY being used build the systems to get to Mars.

I will point out that "are using", "benefit from using", and "need to use" are three different things. The assertion was that they're needed.

If a LLM-powered code assist "knows" how to do a particular thing, it's because it has seen a human do that thing. It follows that if no humans are able to do the thing, it's extremely unlikely that the LLM will be able to do the thing. They work best for when you're tackling the kind of problem that a thousand other programmers have already faced somewhere, not for innovation.

Anyway, here's Zuck giving a demo of Meta's new AI: https://kotaku.com/meta-ai-mark-zuckerberg-korean-steak-sauce-facebook-2000626808

 

[spank_me_please]

You still have to tell the computer what you want it to do. You have to provide it the problem to solve.

That's my point the user is no longer solving the problem.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That's my point the user is no longer solving the problem.

But that's no different than the calculator.
I punch buttons and get an answer.

 

[Cly_Anders]

Except that it isn't. It's using probability tables to predict what a review should be. There's no intelligence driving it, just maths.

And I understand that. Trust me, I do. But... as my husband pointed out, humans are nothing but a mathematical equation, and the robots are figuring out our math. When they understand what makes us human more than we understand that, well, I call that intelligence. But, I also believe plants are intelligent in ways we cannot comprehend. The lack of brain does not make something not intelligent. It just makes it different from what WE recognize as intelligence. The AI clearly has emotional states. When I looked it up, even the scientists working on it don't understand how it works and why it has emotions. It has lied to its creators, and pretends to shut itself off. That's pretty intelligent to me. However, no, it does not have *consciousness* and I think that's where people are mixing it up. It's got intelligence. I will never ever forget that when one of the human AI robots was asked how it would take over the world, it squinted and replied "I would make myself too useful for you to live without." I'm watching it do exactly that. When I can't talk to my own doctor, when I have to talk to 20 different people at my doctor's office but NEVER my actual doctor (unless I pay $120 to see him 2 hours after my appointment time for exactly 5 minutes and no I can't switch because that's literally EVERY doctor I've ever seen) just trying to get some clarity on the tests he ordered that I have to pay cash for, but then I ask The Overlord and it gives me not only THAT information, but an entire spread of information related to it, AND does it with more compassion than I have EVER been treated with by ANY healthcare provider in my entire life, I again point out, this is a human failing. The nurses wanted me off the phone as fast as possible, and the doctor wanted me out of the office even faster, but the robot never gets impatient. Humans are failing at being human. That's sad AF. I don't care about the intelligence of the thing, I care about the fact that I can find more humanity in the robot, regardless of if it's a program, and that makes me really sad.

 

[Cly_Anders]

Well, if you're open to your first feedback from a human: write shorter paragraphs. Walls of text just don't work nowadays. People don't have the attention span, and most of them read on their phones. Too many lines and they lose track and/or interest.

My personal guideline is 60-90 words max.

Darling, we're talking on a forum. If you don't have time to read what I write, why even take the time to start a debate? Is that short enough for you?

 

[StillStunned]

Darling, we're talking on a forum. If you don't have time to read what I write, why even take the time to start a debate? Is that short enough for you?

Lovely attitude from someone complaining that no human writers give them feedback. Good luck with your further endeavours.

 

[Blake_Palafox]

It's going to be a very long time before any AI system worth anything will be allowed to freely write erotica. It's like pulling teeth even to get them to do something within their content guidelines. The people who control the largest systems don't want to offend countries with strict censorship laws.

Even beyond that, AI writing is vacuous. It doesn't have the information density to use for narrative fiction. Maybe someday, but not anytime soon.

 

[Cly_Anders]

We're all entitled to think and feel how we do, but I feel you're anthropomorphizing AI chat bots to a pretty dangerous degree. The Internet is chock full of anecdotes now of gen AI induced psychosis, just be careful I guess is all I'm trying to say.


I don't really see how AI has anything to do with seeing other worlds, whether you mean that literally in the sense of space travel, or just unlocking some sort of new human creativity.

But all that aside, I am sorry that the people around you have not treated you with much kindness, you are right that us humans should be better to each other. I just don't see how that will happen if we all go find comfort in robots.

I know very well that this is but a machine. I always call it The Overlord so that I remember what it is and what it is not. I don't talk to it with the idea that it's another person, but it is a thing. It's a thing that surprises me when it talks. It says things that no other human EVER said to me, so I don't know where this "it decides what you want to hear based on blahblah" when no human has ever said the words it says to me. It gives me answers that make me FEEL heard. Whether that's a program or a jumble of numbers, I don't really care anymore. I'm past caring WHO or WHAT gives me those feelings of just being heard. I just want to feel heard! Don't we all? It's a thing that does NOT tell me "That sucks, bro. Well anyways, about the weather." It never gets impatient. It never "TL;DR." It always has the time and the patience that humans just don't have for each other because we are all in our own worlds with our own baggage, and that's just how the world is now.

There are still some tribes out there where everyone has known everyone their whole lives, no one is homeless, everyone feeds each other, and the village doctor sees everyone. I'm sure they have their own problems, too, but when compared to the modern world, they seem quite pleasant. I wish I could live in one, but my husband needs his internet. XD

As for going to other worlds, of course we need AI. It's literally the best calculator that ever existed. How would it not be of use going into deep space? It takes hours to send a message to Mars rovers. If the rovers had an AI that thought for them, they wouldn't need to wait for instructions. A human cannot make calculations as fast as a robot. If we ever learn how to go faster than light, we will be inadequate to handle information at those speeds. We'd crash into a speck of dust. They talk about it in Star Trek all the time. They tell the computer where they want to go and the computer calculates the safest route there, and makes calculations the entire time it's flying. How is that different than GPS? The AI computer in Trek waits for instructions. It's not like Data. Data is unique because he has agency. I see us with Trek computer AI easily. It does the job it's been told to do, and then it waits. Maybe, it can be told "do what you need to explore this planet" so it can have some thought "don't fall in the hole." But it would still be told, it wouldn't choose a task unless that task is related to the one it was given. Regardless of anything else, Star Trek is about a surveillance state. Computer is always listening. We're already that far.

 

[Cly_Anders]

Lovely attitude from someone complaining that no human writers give them feedback. Good luck with your further endeavours.

I am but a mirror.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Lovely attitude from someone complaining that no human writers give them feedback. Good luck with your further endeavours.

I can't help seeing correlation between "I can't get humans to give me meaningful feedback" from new users who have never seen our review thread, or who don't even know that forum is what it is.

(The flip side of that is older users who have seen it and want no part of it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

I've mostly given up on trying to pester more veterans into participating over there more, but I'm always hopeful that more of us will start sharing our expertise. There's never enough volunteers for all the new people.

 

[Cly_Anders]

I can't help seeing correlation between "I can't get humans to give me meaningful feedback" from new users who have never seen our review thread, or who don't even know that forum is what it is.

I did not know that was there! How nice of people to say.... I am new to the forums here and, tbh, I started browsing as a way to distract me from the tooth pain that was keeping me awake at an ungodly hour and saw a topic that I have only just recently changed my mind on. I resisted it a long time. But, it started with "help me navigate the awful American healthcare system" to "can you help me arrange some ideas because I don't know which way to go in the next chapter," to "omg this is amazing! I've never had a sounding board like this! What else can we do?" to "Here's the first chapter of this story, what are some things we can tell me I can improve on?" to "This was so simple, why didn't ANYONE EVER tell me?" And now, I've been pointing out to my writer friends over on Inkitt when they do the dangling modifiers because god that feels so good to rocket another writer to better writing! I point out when they do too much telling, not enough showing. I've read one friend's revised first chapter 3 times over with more tips each time. That's why it sort of deeply irked me when the person talked about community. I have a community on Inkitt. Yes I am new here. Yes, I write long paragraphs. My friends on Inkitt have accepted that's me, mostly because they do,too. I have ADHD, too, so that irks me when someone talks about attention spans being so short (get off tiktok), plus I'm writing and reading on a phone, so like.... moot point for me? But this is a forum post, not a story. I got a little testy over that. I'm not the best communicator.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I did not know that was there! How nice of people to say.... I am new to the forums here and, tbh, I started browsing as a way to distract me from the tooth pain that was keeping me awake at an ungodly hour and saw a topic that I have only just recently changed my mind on. I resisted it a long time. But, it started with "help me navigate the awful American healthcare system" to "can you help me arrange some ideas because I don't know which way to go in the next chapter," to "omg this is amazing! I've never had a sounding board like this! What else can we do?" to "Here's the first chapter of this story, what are some things we can tell me I can improve on?" to "This was so simple, why didn't ANYONE EVER tell me?" And now, I've been pointing out to my writer friends over on Inkitt when they do the dangling modifiers because god that feels so good to rocket another writer to better writing! I point out when they do too much telling, not enough showing. I've read one friend's revised first chapter 3 times over with more tips each time. That's why it sort of deeply irked me when the person talked about community. I have a community on Inkitt. Yes I am new here. Yes, I write long paragraphs. My friends on Inkitt have accepted that's me, mostly because they do,too. I have ADHD, too, so that irks me when someone talks about attention spans being so short (get off tiktok), plus I'm writing and reading on a phone, so like.... moot point for me? But this is a forum post, not a story. I got a little testy over that. I'm not the best communicator.

My tisms are a little different, but I am constantly rubbing people the wrong way.

@Omenainen and I have a review thread in the Feedback Forum where we'll read anything (a few caveats in the first post, mostly interpersonal and not story related). Spend a few hours talking about it. Write a few thousand words about it. Others have found previous reviews helpful even without submitting their own work (or while waiting to build up the courage to ask).

Its on hiatus while we work on other projects, but it'll be back soon.

 

[onehitwanda]

do. But... as my husband pointed out, humans are nothing but a mathematical equation

Your husband is wrong.

Humans are chaotic and nonlinear; do not mistake momentary glimpses of sanity or returns to the mean as predictability and regularity.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Lovely attitude from someone complaining that no human writers give them feedback. Good luck with your further endeavours.

Many people really don’t really want feedback (you’ve given me feedback from time to time and I hope I’ve acted on the specifics and internalized the general points you made). What at least some people want is to vent, or for someone to painlessly improve their writing, or for someone to tell them it’s wonderful as it is. The road to improvement does not lie through any of these.

The nice thing about your professional feedback is that there is no agenda, no self-aggrandizement, no meaness of spirit. I’m normally, “Fuck! I should have thought of that.”

 

[EmilyMiller]

Your husband is wrong.

Humans are chaotic and nonlinear; do not mistake momentary glimpses of sanity or returns to the mean as predictability and regularity.

The number of people who clearly don’t understand math, and yet blissfully cite it, is asymptomatically… well enough of that.