Do you own your body?

[adrina]

Birth control needs to be removed because women don’t need it. If a woman is having sex and doesn’t want to get pregnant she can mentally shut down all the reproductive stuff. If a woman is pregnant she 100% made that choice on her own.

Surely you've got to be joking.

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

Birth control needs to be removed because women don’t need it. If a woman is having sex and doesn’t want to get pregnant she can mentally shut down all the reproductive stuff. If a woman is pregnant she 100% made that choice on her own.

Damn straight.

 

[LittleDixie]

Not a one. I have no issue with it whatsoever because I don't confuse an acorn with a tree and I don't elevate a fetus above a woman - or above all of humanity for that matter. You and the ant-abortion fanatics do.

All of society operates on the legal process. Especially now that women's bodies are open going to be open for regulation. You're the one being illogical about fetus "rights". You and the anti abortion hysterics want to give rights to a fetus that no other human being has. And you can only justify it by saying 'well they had sex'.

Which makes this more about moral judgement than logic or even legalities. There are very few - insanely few - voices in the anti abortion movement (pro life is bullshit) that speak about the embryos disposed of at the IVF clinics. It is only the fetus in the uterus that is worthy of this attention.

I wonder why.

You get the right to defend yourself. Abortion is an act of self defense. It's just that damn simple.

Now for the umpteenth time, why should a fetus get rights that no person has?

Well, for the umpteenth time, a fetus does not get any special rights that any other human being has had. All human beings get the same rights from conception on - namely not to be murdered because they are inconvenient for someone else.

Again, I am more pro-choice than pro-life. I actually believe that women should have the right to choose to have an abortion. I just think your arguments are stupid.

I don't see a clear line where a fertilized egg becomes a person, but at some point it does, and I'd rather any abortions be done as early as possible to avoid torturing and murdering something with any degree of awareness.

But, frankly, your "my body is my property and I get to kill anyone who is in it without my permission" argument is vapid.

 

[adrina]

Well, for the umpteenth time, a fetus does not get any special rights that any other human being has had. All human beings get the same rights from conception on - namely not to be murdered because they are inconvenient for someone else.

Again, I am more pro-choice than pro-life. I actually believe that women should have the right to choose to have an abortion. I just think your arguments are stupid.

I don't see a clear line where a fertilized egg becomes a person, but at some point it does, and I'd rather any abortions be done as early as possible to avoid torturing and murdering something with any degree of awareness.

But, frankly, your "my body is my property and I get to kill anyone who is in it without my permission" argument is vapid.

That you don't recognize that giving a fetus the right to a woman's body without her consent is a special right is insane.

If you don't own your body, then who does?

 

[icanhelp1]

No woman sees abortion like that. You're an idiot.

You're the idiot if you believe that. There are women protesting for laws that sanction unchallenged, wholesale abortion regardless at what stage they're at during a pregnancy, some even after birth took place. They bellow no restrictions, period so don't try selling me your bullshit no woman see abortion like that. Most women are in the middle and truly believe that abortion is a traumatic experience

Talk to a woman sometime about the joys of reproductive health.

No greatness was ruined because of an abortion. Plenty of idiots exist because of the lack of one

Again, for the folks in the back. No other human being has that right. If you all want to say that the fetus is a person, whatever. Again, no person has that right. No person can use another person's body to provide material physical support to preserve or sustain their life without their permission.

Laws are based on precedents - not feelings.

Why do fetuses get this right - especially with this whole ridiculous push to personhood - that no person gets?

What basis of logic do these "elected representatives"/you use for this conclusion? Why do fetuses get special rights?

Because a fetus can’t defend itself. The right to life is an actual right, abortion is a legal decision rendered forth by a group of activist judges that went outside the purview of their judicial authority. The decision of Roe vs Wade was unconstitutional, the court wrested the legislative authority from the states to decide, but be advised, there is no mention in the constitution of abortion being a right. You can believe the right to privacy and stretching or contorting the fourteenth amendment to magically grant rights that don’t exist as an argument, but then your belief falls outside the realm of democracy or the democratic process. It’s activism or tyranny by the courts. When, in your mind, you decide that the fate of a fetus, the determinate of the viability of personhood strictly based on a cluster of cells.. for millions of people those cells become more of a moral issue for reasons that science cannot totally and without prejudice refute or deem a fetus as not viable or does not meet the lawful status of personhood. Our legal system can only speculate and try to rule in a way that benefits both parties and that's by educating the electorate and let them decide, presently it doesn't. A fetus with a soul at conception is faith based but can't be proven by science either, so, what comes into focus is why are we here, what is the purpose and meaning of life? What sets humans apart from other forms of life? Placing the issue back to the states releases it from the federal domain *one size fits all* and allows each state to legislate the laws they feel represents their belief as how they want to be governed. People will have a vote and the will of the people have to be abided by, blue states will be strong advocates for abortion and red states will not. Laws can be amended as science improves or people just change their minds on either side of the argument. The democratic process will deem what can be legally enforced whether you as an individual agree to it or not.

Even the most fervent pro lifers are not suggesting, for the most part, the survival of a fetus over the health and welfare of a mother. The same holds true for rape, incest or a damaged fetus but pro choice advocates consistently uses that straw man argument to push their agenda based on a flawed premise.

Abortion laws for the last 300 years has changed from time to time but common law dating back to the first supreme court justices have always held a great respect for the sanctity of the fetus and a need to protect it upon its first movement in the womb.

IMHO

 

[adrina]

And the only defense a woman has on the attack on her body from a fetus is abortion. Your argument is non-sensical. The fetus is the attacker.

This isn't about life or personhood or humanity. It's about control. You fanatics would conscript a woman to physical slavery to a fetus. "For the most part"... the fact that ANYONE isn't is insane.

If you want to prove you care about humanity, then you should start, ya know, caring about humanity.

Until then you're just another fanatical anti abortion hysterical hypocrite.

 

[ll74]

You're the idiot if you believe that. There are women protesting for laws that sanction unchallenged, wholesale abortion regardless at what stage they're at during a pregnancy, some even after birth took place. They bellow no restrictions, period so don't try selling me your bullshit no woman see abortion like that. Most women are in the middle and truly believe that abortion is a traumatic experience




Because a fetus can’t defend itself. The right to life is an actual right, abortion is a legal decision rendered forth by a group of activist judges that went outside the purview of their judicial authority. The decision of Roe vs Wade was unconstitutional, the court wrested the legislative authority from the states to decide, but be advised, there is no mention in the constitution of abortion being a right. You can believe the right to privacy and stretching or contorting the fourteenth amendment to magically grant rights that don’t exist as an argument, then your belief falls outside the realm democracy, it’s activism or tyranny by the courts. When, in your mind you decide the fate of a fetus or determine the viability of personhood based on the multiplication of cells.. for millions of people those cells become more of a moral issue for reasons the science cannot totally and without prejudice deem a fetus as not viable or does not meet the lawful status of personhood. Our legal system can only speculate and try to rule that benefits both parties but doesn't. A fetus with a soul at conception is faith based and can't be proven either so comes into focus why are we here, what is the purpose and meaning of life. What sets humans apart from other forms of life. Placing the issue back to the states releases it from the federal domain *one size fits all* and allows each state to legislate the laws they feel represents their opinions as how to be governed. People will have a vote and the will have to abide by their vote, blue states will be strong advocates for abortion and red states will not. Laws can be amended if more scientific info developes or people change their minds one way or another. The democratic process is what deems what can be legally enforced whether you as an individual agree to it or not.

Even the most fervent pro lifers are not suggesting, for the most part, the survival of a fetus over the health and welfare of a mother. The same holds true for rape, incest or a damaged fetus but pro choice advocates consistently uses that straw man argument to push their agenda based on a flawed premise.

Abortion laws for the last 300 years has changed from time to time but common law dating back to the first supreme court justices have always held a great respect for the sanctity of the fetus and a need to protect it upon its first movement in the womb.

IMHO

Pregnancy is hard child bearing is hard. You're minimizing what it is and trashing women in the process....and somehow believe you're holding some moral high ground. That's laughable
The people getting abortions aren't the people you think are getting them

 

[windar]

Actually you did get to live inside another human being. You just don’t remember. We had abortion laws before the 1973 Roe decision, we’ve had abortion laws since Roe, and we’ll have abortion laws after the Dobbs decision comes down. They vary from state to state.

I got to live inside another person WITH THEIR PERMISSION AND CONSENT.

But you ducked my question. Tell me how you propose to ENFORCE abortion bans. I dared you and you chickened out...

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Bull fucking shit. The anti abortion movement started as an anti woman sexist move against midwives. Then when segregation fell the religious bigots - see you - took up anti abortion as another means of control.

Again, name the fucking precedent that allows you to compel a person to provide physical material support to another against their will.

Your hysteria isn't precedent.

Legislative and judicial precedent is abundant. You can Google “abortion laws in the US“ and quickly discover they were widespread by the early 1800s and still are. See New York and Connecticut as examples. You can also look at abortion laws currently in place in the US and discover that many states have restrictions pertaining to late term abortion, parental notification, risk notifications and other things that have been upheld by the courts. Roe and Casey did not open the door to your desire for unrestricted abortion across the US. States can and do place limits on the practice.

 

[ll74]

Legislative and judicial precedent is abundant. You can Google “abortion laws in the US“ and quickly discover they were widespread by the early 1800s and still are. See New York and Connecticut as examples. You can also look at abortion laws currently in place in the US and discover that many states have restrictions pertaining to late term abortion, parental notification, risk notifications and other things that have been upheld by the courts. Roe and Casey did not open the door to your desire for unrestricted abortion across the US. States can and do place limits on the practice.

Abortion rights should be codified. Viability as the measuring stick.

Medical care should not differ from state to state.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Well, for the umpteenth time, a fetus does not get any special rights that any other human being has had. All human beings get the same rights from conception on - namely not to be murdered because they are inconvenient for someone else.

A human fetus has rights to the extent that the do not infringe upon the rights of another, in this case the woman carrying the fetus. You cannot have two entities with equal rights occupying one body, because one will automatically have veto power over the other, and by definition this precludes "equal rights".

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

You don't respect the law or the constitution. You're just another fucking liar. First it was states rights, then it will be a national ban. Then birth control. Spare me. Hell you support the J6 insurrectionists and believe that pathetic piece of shit Trump won. Don't patronize us.

Women's rights, gay rights, medical rights - all on the chopping block because of religious fanaticism with roots in racism.

Fuck off liar.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. The Constitution and judicial interpretations of it exist. Your respect or my respect for those facts are irrelevant.

You’ve now pivoted to groundless speculation about future laws, and have resorted to making things up about me. Your assertion that I support the J6 rioters is a complete fabrication. They are idiots and I fully support their prosecution under the law. I accepted the outcome of the 2020 election in November of that year and have never claimed that Trump won.

Pro Tip: Ignoring well-documented facts, making unsubstantiated predictions about the future, making things up about people you disagree with, and resorting to name calling and insults will not strengthen your case.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

I got to live inside another person WITH THEIR PERMISSION AND CONSENT.

But you ducked my question. Tell me how you propose to ENFORCE abortion bans. I dared you and you chickened out...

I’m sorry if I missed your question. The answer is I actually don’t support full abortion bans. I support the the pending Dobbs decision because I believe Roe was a gross misinterpretation of the constitution. I support letting each state make its own determination through the democratic process. I haven’t put forth any legislative proposals for any particular state. I think it will be tough for any state to enforce a full ban, but it will be up to each state to figure that out.

 

[Dribble]

The Nebraska Governor is on record that rape victims MUST CARRY the child to birth because it was God's Will. Well Republicans...understand...what goes around comes around. Our actions will be also considered God's Will.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I’m sorry if I missed your question. The answer is I actually don’t support full abortion bans. I support the the pending Dobbs decision because I believe Roe was a gross misinterpretation of the constitution. I support letting each state make its own determination through the democratic process. I haven’t put forth any legislative proposals for any particular state. I think it will be tough for any state to enforce a full ban, but it will be up to each state to figure that out.

An ectopic pregnancy will result in the death of both the mother and the fetus. A full ban will ensure that both will die. Ergo, your "I support letting each state make its own determination" is politically driven ignorance. As such, go fuck yourself and may the good Lord visit ecotopic pregnancies unto your loved ones as divine retribution. God is not mocked.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

An ectopic pregnancy will result in the death of both the mother and the fetus. A full ban will ensure that both will die. Ergo, your "I support letting each state make its own determination" is politically driven ignorance. As such, go fuck yourself and may the good Lord visit ecotopic pregnancies unto your loved ones as divine retribution. God is not mocked.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Even what I referred to as “full bans” contain exceptions for lifesaving care for the mother. Which states ban, or will ban abortions for ectopic pregnancies?

 

[adrina]

Legislative and judicial precedent is abundant. You can Google “abortion laws in the US“ and quickly discover they were widespread by the early 1800s and still are. See New York and Connecticut as examples. You can also look at abortion laws currently in place in the US and discover that many states have restrictions pertaining to late term abortion, parental notification, risk notifications and other things that have been upheld by the courts. Roe and Casey did not open the door to your desire for unrestricted abortion across the US. States can and do place limits on the practice.

All of the anti abortion legislation - especially in the past 50 years since Roe - hasn't been based on medical science. It's been based on hysteria and lies. I'm going to call you out on that bullshit and for the liar you are.

You can say look towards precedent but oddly all the ones you point to came after Roe.

All of this rationalization and not one word, not one bit of reasoning in law which allows a right to a fetus which NO PERSON has.

 

[adrina]

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. The Constitution and judicial interpretations of it exist. Your respect or my respect for those facts are irrelevant.

You’ve now pivoted to groundless speculation about future laws, and have resorted to making things up about me. Your assertion that I support the J6 rioters is a complete fabrication. They are idiots and I fully support their prosecution under the law. I accepted the outcome of the 2020 election in November of that year and have never claimed that Trump won.

Pro Tip: Ignoring well-documented facts, making unsubstantiated predictions about the future, making things up about people you disagree with, and resorting to name calling and insults will not strengthen your case.

Again, you are a liar and don't give one shit about the law or constitution except for how you can use it to control others or place your hysteria based agenda into law.

Don't dare lecture me about facts. You think J6 was a peaceful protest. Just another conservative hypocrite with control issues.

 

[adrina]

I’m sorry if I missed your question. The answer is I actually don’t support full abortion bans. I support the the pending Dobbs decision because I believe Roe was a gross misinterpretation of the constitution. I support letting each state make its own determination through the democratic process. I haven’t put forth any legislative proposals for any particular state. I think it will be tough for any state to enforce a full ban, but it will be up to each state to figure that out.

Yeah until a national abortion ban is on the table and you will vote for politicians who will vote for it.

All of you anti abortion fanatics are liars. Every single one. I'm sick of you guys sitting there in your holier than thou goal post moving hysterical reality. Excuse after excuse. You will support a national abortion ban. Why? Because you won't vote for anyone else. Just fuck right off with your lies.

 

[windar]

I’m sorry if I missed your question. The answer is I actually don’t support full abortion bans. I support the the pending Dobbs decision because I believe Roe was a gross misinterpretation of the constitution. I support letting each state make its own determination through the democratic process. I haven’t put forth any legislative proposals for any particular state. I think it will be tough for any state to enforce a full ban, but it will be up to each state to figure that out.

Since so far as I know, you don't sit in any legislature, your position is not determinative. The democratic process is tainted by gerrymandering, money and the power of incumbency and very often reflects minority interests. Without court checks, some states will jail women for getting or trying to get abortions, including by ordering pills from places where it is perfectly legal. For God's sake Missouri wants to criminalize travelling to other states (perhaps other countries as well) to get an abortion. Just think of the intrusion and massive over-reach of state power. Troopers at the Mississippi bridges, "Why did you travel to Illinois, ma'am?" Opening mail from other states and countries to see if there are abortion pills inside.

That you hope or believe that won't happen is immaterial. The decision you support provides literally zero protection against that. Zero.

 

[LittleDixie]

That you don't recognize that giving a fetus the right to a woman's body without her consent is a special right is insane.

If you don't own your body, then who does?

Okay, well, I would point out that the woman's body MADE the fetus.

If you don't give consent to have a fetus in your body, then don't fucking MAKE a fetus in your body.

 

[LittleDixie]

A human fetus has rights to the extent that the do not infringe upon the rights of another, in this case the woman carrying the fetus. You cannot have two entities with equal rights occupying one body, because one will automatically have veto power over the other, and by definition this precludes "equal rights".

The fetus is not infringing on the rights of the mother. The fetus was created by the mother.

 

[Vetteman]

Okay, well, I would point out that the woman's body MADE the fetus.

If you don't give consent to have a fetus in your body, then don't fucking MAKE a fetus in your body.

The shithead liberals will never understand this. If a woman is pregnant it’s only because she wanted to get pregnant. If she didn’t want to be pregnant she would have shut her reproductive system off.

 

[adrina]

Okay, well, I would point out that the woman's body MADE the fetus.

If you don't give consent to have a fetus in your body, then don't fucking MAKE a fetus in your body.

Ahhh so then under that logic marital rape doesn't exist.

And again, so it's only the fetuses in a uterus that count. Not the IVF throw aways. Wonder why.

So, tell me again how this isn't a moral judgement for having sex.