Do you get Suspicious When...

[Colleen Thomas]

I have a lot of H's. I keep a lot of them.

4.79 304 65093 Lesbian Sex (English) approved
4.77 209 48985 Lesbian Sex (English) approved
4.80 377 91682 Lesbian Sex (English) approved

These are more or less typical of my long standing stories. It would take an extremely dedicated troll to hit them hard enough to drop them. Not that it couldn't be done, only that it would take a lot of work, and the rash of ones would get removed in the first sweep, making a troll start over again. And unless someone brought it to my attention, I wouldn't even notice the effort. I just don't check my memberpage often enough.

In general, I pick up 70 to 90 votes on anything New I put out in pretty short order. I have a readership who don't just read me if they happen to notice something of mine on the new list, they actively check my member page and quite often send quries as to when something new is coming out.

On a memorable day, when I first got popular, I actually held all ten of the top spots in the Lesbian sex cat. I did a print screen, because within 45 minutes of someone pointing it out, I held exactly no spot in the top 50.

Trolls watch the top lists, and probably quite happily bomb anyone up there. I began to wonder if maybe it wasn't the author who held most of the spots "protecting" her turf. It's a natural reaction.

I realized quickly however a single juan, hitting the top ten lesbian stories because he dosen't like lesbians, will really adversely affect new writers, while tending to bring the people I had seen up there regularly back to the top.

The bottom line, is that a one dosen't make much of an impression on a story with 300 or more votes while it can truly alter a story with fewer than 25. For a troll to really make a dent in one of mine, he/she has to catch it early and even then, the effect is somewhat mitigated by the volume of votes from my regular readers.

You very rarely see writers with 30 or more stories protesting trolls. It isn't so much that we don't care about our votes as it is, we have, in general, stopped fretting over them. If I spent the kind of time neccessary to know when a uni-bomber attacks, I would have little or no time for writing. I have never asked Laural to remove votes on my works, I simply accept the occasional one bomb as the price of putting my work out in a public forum.

There may well be an author who protects his/her spot or who has a fanatical fan who does so, but I think the more likely answer is that most of the top list regulars have so many votes, the uniform one bomber simply makes no perceptable impression on their works.

It's a mathematical fact that my work with a 4.61 average and 400 votes is going to be less damaged than yours with a 5.0 and 11.

Put another way:

4.61 * 400 = 1844
1844 +1 =1845
1845/401 = 4.60

5.00 * 11 = 55
55 + 1 = 56
56/12 = 4.66

 

[impressive]

Colly gives good word.

There is an enormous amount of Top List trolling of poetry. Most poems there -- hell, most poems in general -- have fewer than 20 votes. The one bomb has a huge impact.

 

[carsonshepherd]

I have 23 submissions; 20 have H's. The 3 that don't aren't as good as the other 20... the readers know it. I have a fan base *shrug* People who read in my category (gay male) know my name after 20 submissions.

I'm not even writing for Lit at the moment so have't kept up with my scores in awhile. After awhile, the need to check them compulsively goes away, I think.

to Helene.

 

[oggbashan]

I have over 100 story submissions. Several have been posted for years without reaching 10 votes.

Those that have 10 votes or more tend to be clustered around the 4.30 to 4.60 rating. I think, I haven't checked today, that only a third of my stories have Hs. Some lose that mark, some gain whenever I enter a competition.

I know that my quality is variable and that some of my stories are of limited appeal. Some are crap. The ratings do not reflect my own opinion. Why should they? I usually write for a specific audience, not for myself. If that audience is pleased with a poor story that hits the target for them, should I complain?

Back to the Earth Day contest. One posted, three partially completed, and two of those will be my version of crap. The other - depends whether I can correct the timeline. I'm now making a spreadsheet to try to get the ages of the several generations to work. If grandmother is 96, how old is her son? and her granddaughter? and the granddaughter's uncles and aunts? The grandmother's eldest son did something specific in 1932. How old was he then and was his act feasible for that age? I wish I hadn't started this tangle. I think the premise is good. The mechanics are another matter.

Og

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think it's a combination of trolls and genuine response. For example, I had one series that hit the tops of ex/voy for a while - there were a few golden days when I had the top three slots. Then they got voted down to where, I would have to say, they still don't belong, because I think them fairly bad writing. They're grammatical, but I hadn't learned very much about switching POV when I wrote them and they are my own excessive verbiage at its worst. Those, I think, got voted down simply because they deserved to go down. They probably deserve to go down more. I think that they attracted attention after shooting to the top because some people - like me - use the top lists as one way to select reading material. Because those people are interested in finding the best writing, I think they're more likely to vote something down if it's not stellar. Hence one explanation for a phenomena with which, I think, nearly all of us are familiar - the story that debuts with a 5.0 and then sinks relatively quickly.

There is, of course, the other possible explanation - that someone is "trolling" stories that rise near the top, either to defend his/her own material or out of sheer vindictive trolly-ness. This, too, I would argue that I have seen. Twice "Will" has breached the top 10 in its category; both times it was hit with a 2-vote. I will stretch out my neck and say that I have great difficulty believing that someone actually read it - all 9 pages - and came to the sincere conclusion that it's a 2, particularly when it's superior to the aforementioned series that still clings to its H's. That one looks pretty clearly like trolling. And that's frustrating, yes. On the other hand, I had the right support to take the blow with. Everyone whose opinion I care about has liked it, and some gave PC's or feedback that meant the world to me. Knowing that I had pleased them, I was satisfied. Knowing that I had surpasse dmy own previous writing, I was deeply pleased. And knowing that I've re-read the story several times now and still love it, I feel I have all I can ask for.

It's true, some writers have enormous followings. I seem to think I saw someone on the "favorites" portal with something like 75 listings. That's immense! And I supposed that you are right in thinking that someone with that size of following might - if said following is relatively uncritical - lose perspective on his or her own stories. I acknowledge it quite possible, as I also acknowledge that from time to time, I cannot fathom the choice of winners in a contest. But those writers are doing something to attract that readership. You don't get 75 passionatlely devoted fans for nothing. The real question for me is whether I want to be in that position. If I do, I will study those with large followings and try to write more like they do. If, as it happens, I don't, then I will continue to write pornography in the form of the diary of an 18th-century poet. That seems to do a nice job of keeping me from becoming "too popular."

Shanglan

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don't check Top Lists. I don't check my scores either, after the first week or so after a story's up. Once it has 25-30 votes, you pretty much know ow it was received.

I also realize that there are all sorts of shenanigans that go on in contests and awards. There are writers who keep lists of fans and actively solicit votes. There's nothing really unethical about that, but it always surprised me how badly some people want to win. And of course, there's always a flurry of voting at the eleventh hour, when people try to boost or sink stories before the scores can be adjusted.

There's something else we don't talk about, but I'll stick my neck out, and that's the Gay bias. It seems that gay stories win an awful lot of contests, way out of proportion to the gay population of Lit, I would think. I really don't think it's because a lot of straights are suddenly blown away by gay stories, but rather because gays vote more and vote as a block.

There's nothing sinister about this, but it does serve to illustrate something about the dynamics behind voting and top lists.

 

[carsonshepherd]

There's something else we don't talk about, but I'll stick my neck out, and that's the Gay bias. It seems that gay stories win an awful lot of contests, way out of proportion to the gay population of Lit, I would think. I really don't think it's because a lot of straights are suddenly blown away by gay stories, but rather because gays vote more and vote as a block.

I would agree with you, Doc... except on one point. In my own humble experience, and may or may not be generalizing, yada yada, most of the fans who devotedly read and vote on gay stories are female. They read, they vote, and they vote high. I thank them, but I also realize a solid dedicated fan base skews things.

Just my thoughts.

 

[carsonshepherd]

If, as it happens, I don't, then I will continue to write pornography in the form of the diary of an 18th-century poet. That seems to do a nice job of keeping me from becoming "too popular."

Don't ever, ever change.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Another thing that's sort of bothering me about this new favorite's feature, though, (since I'm already kind of being cunty,) isn't it kind of unfair to those who do not frequent the boards, therefore have not had the same opportunities to build a fan base because they don't have that same familiar interaction?

My writing alt is not widely known here. In fact, only a very few know, but it's on the favorite portal (and I don't think it's on the favorites list of any from here who know my writing alt.)

 

[Erlikkhan]

My writing alt is not widely known here. In fact, only a very few know, but it's on the favorite portal (and I don't think it's on the favorites list of any from here who know my writing alt.)

I used to only write stories under this name, and used an alt for the boards (two actually - different personalities). It never seemed to impact the voting or the following of my stories. I have 54 posted with over 75% rated H and for the most part I would agree with the voters on my good and bad works. My average number of votes is between 150 and 200. I am thinking of going back to strictly an alt and keeping E for the stories. I think people like the stories better when they don't have to deal with the author's personality as well.

 

[NoJo]

Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone in this. I didn't want it to be yet another "why aren't I number one? I blame the trolls" rant, but more like a glimpse into the minds of those long time observers who usually remain silent on the issue.

I aggree with your statement on the importance of feedback vs votes, but the shot at cash prizes or a publishing deal would be kind of cool you have to admit.

I had a story nominated here for a monthly award. I entertained a brief hope that I would once day get published in the second Literotica book, which never materialized. Writing is a field where you have to deal with a lot of rejection and watch people who you don't feel deserve it, do better than you. It's tough, tough, tough, when you take it seriously.

I've recently come to the opinion that I'm not single-minded enough, or even driven enough, to make a full-time career out of writing. So I just try to do it when the mood takes me, and I've lowered my expectations so that all I hope for is to entertain a few people. But in the back of my mind, I keep thinking about doing it for a living.

 

[NoJo]

I don't check Top Lists. I don't check my scores either, after the first week or so after a story's up. Once it has 25-30 votes, you pretty much know ow it was received.

I also realize that there are all sorts of shenanigans that go on in contests and awards. There are writers who keep lists of fans and actively solicit votes. There's nothing really unethical about that, but it always surprised me how badly some people want to win. And of course, there's always a flurry of voting at the eleventh hour, when people try to boost or sink stories before the scores can be adjusted.

There's something else we don't talk about, but I'll stick my neck out, and that's the Gay bias. It seems that gay stories win an awful lot of contests, way out of proportion to the gay population of Lit, I would think. I really don't think it's because a lot of straights are suddenly blown away by gay stories, but rather because gays vote more and vote as a block.

There's nothing sinister about this, but it does serve to illustrate something about the dynamics behind voting and top lists.

Thank God the Oscars at least are free of bias.

 

[raphy]

If the people I care about like what I write, then I feel like I've done my job - And damn everyone else

Of course, I'm not trying for mass popularity or to make a living doing this, so I have the luxury of being selective in whose opinion I listen to.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Don't ever, ever change.

Because then I might start scooping some of your readership?



One word from you is worth a dozen 5's.

shenanigans

I just love that word.

You're right, though. It does surprise me how much people get into the competition element. Or I should say, the elements of competition that don't have to do with how well a story is actually written. But then, we all come here for different things. I'm mostly here to learn and practice, so I'm more interested in knowing what's wrong than in being told it's all right. I'm keen to improve, and I tend to look at the stories I write as being mostly valuable to me in whatever they've each done to increase my understanding of the craft. If I looked at each as the apotheosis of my perfected style, then I suppose I might be more "pushing" about where they stand. I don't know. I suppose it helps, too, that I recognize that what I'm writing will not please most people from the start. It helps me to be more relaxed about their voting status. I know that I've included barriers to many readers, and that some will choose to resent those barriers in their voting.

Shanglan

 

[yui]

Hi Helene,

I think everyone has already said anything I would tell you; except, when you are on the New Stories list, it's much better if you can stay there with a score (4.5 – 4.7ish) that will keep you off the top of the Top Lists. Because, like everyone has already said, once you hit the top lists, you are actively trolled by the trolls that be. My impression is that most regulars read off the new list, so not being on the Top List for your category won't really negatively impact your views/score. But being bombed off the first page of the Top List can significantly lower a story without a goodly number of votes. At least that's what happens to me.

Much luck to you,

Yui

 

[LadyJeanne]

Colly gives good word.

There is an enormous amount of Top List trolling of poetry. Most poems there -- hell, most poems in general -- have fewer than 20 votes. The one bomb has a huge impact.

Ah, yes, poetry...the poetry Top List is a bad, bad place. I like reading poetry, so after I make my way through the new poems, I'll sometimes go to the Top List to find other, older poems that I didn't see the first time around.

The volatility of that List is incredible! It's actually rare to find poems on the list that are older than, say, Dec of 2004, and it's even rarer to find poetry there from authors who don't frequent the Poetry Forum. I'm not saying the poems that stay on the list aren't good, but the relatively small number of votes each poem gets makes it very difficult to stay on the list unless you do have a dedicated fan base.

Most of my favorite authors/poems are new authors and never make it onto the Top List, or drop off after a week or two. I don't know if it's trolling, but if it is, they're smart trolls and vote 2's and 3's rather than 1's, since those aren't likely to be swept but have a devastating effect on the poems anyway.

 

[sophia jane]

Ah, yes, poetry...the poetry Top List is a bad, bad place. I like reading poetry, so after I make my way through the new poems, I'll sometimes go to the Top List to find other, older poems that I didn't see the first time around.

The volatility of that List is incredible! It's actually rare to find poems on the list that are older than, say, Dec of 2004, and it's even rarer to find poetry there from authors who don't frequent the Poetry Forum. I'm not saying the poems that stay on the list aren't good, but the relatively small number of votes each poem gets makes it very difficult to stay on the list unless you do have a dedicated fan base.

Most of my favorite authors/poems are new authors and never make it onto the Top List, or drop off after a week or two. I don't know if it's trolling, but if it is, they're smart trolls and vote 2's and 3's rather than 1's, since those aren't likely to be swept but have a devastating effect on the poems anyway.

I had one poem make it to the top list for poetry; it lasted less then 24 hours. Why? Don't know. It is hard to get votes on poems and every low score there has a huge impact. I have finally started to not look at my scores on my poems, and instead focus on feedback that I've gotten.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

I'm mostly here to learn and practice, so I'm more interested in knowing what's wrong than in being told it's all right. I'm keen to improve, and I tend to look at the stories I write as being mostly valuable to me in whatever they've each done to increase my understanding of the craft. If I looked at each as the apotheosis of my perfected style, then I suppose I might be more "pushing" about where they stand. I don't know. I suppose it helps, too, that I recognize that what I'm writing will not please most people from the start. It helps me to be more relaxed about their voting status. I know that I've included barriers to many readers, and that some will choose to resent those barriers in their voting.

Shanglan

The attitude here is good, and I think everyone here is writing to learn except those who take the place far too seriously. I will say that, if you haven't tried already, "Meer Kass" is definitely publishable in the non-Lit. literary world. Sci-Fi magazines would certainly have an interest. Just my thoughts. Haven't read "Will" yet, 9 pages is daunting.

Anyway, on the topic at hand, yeah, you've got the trolls and the troll-sweeping, but it works both ways. I've recently lost a 5 on my newest story (giving my grand total votes a shock--7 now. ). The voter fraud is tested either way, not just the one-bombs, but the higher votes that aren't fairly recieved are looked into as well. i don't know who would have cheated to get my score up, but if that's what happened, sobeit. I'll take what I earn.

I haven't checked out the favorites portal just yet, but basically, on the site, everything is subject to popularity, for whatever reason that popularity is earned. It's the basic way of life. We can all think of famous writers whom really shouldn't be famous, who we don't feel are all so great. But they're popular. The same works here; it's not the Lit. system, it's the entire Art-oriented world. I mean, Christo hangs sheets over something and everyone gives a fuck? What the hell? You'd think he was competing with DaVinci (I may have misspelled that; my high school art teacher would gut me for that) or Michaelangelo, and all he really does is hang sheets over bridges?

Sorry, ranting.

Q_C

 

[carsonshepherd]

One word from you is worth a dozen 5's.



Shanglan

Ditto. Really.

 

[wishfulthinking]

Helene, I couldn't find your stories in your sig line? I'm too lazy to look for it.

But, I a may be alone on this, but it is easier to win awards with less votes than more.

Eg. [to steal collies idea]. 2 stories have 4.80, but one has 52 votes, the other 109, and both receive 1 [detectable] troll vote.

(4.8 x 52) - 1 /51 = 4.87
(4.8 x 109) - 1 /108 = 4.83

There are writers who keep lists of fans and actively solicit votes.

Guilty :d But it is for a different reason. I probably write a story every 1-2 months, and unfortunately all my stories are chapters (otherwise I would never get anything finished!) The only feedback I got for a month period was about 3 emails a day saying "when are you posting your next story"? And I can tell you, people can be pretty rude about it So I thought fuck this, stop emailing me and putting pressure on me, I'll Fucking email you when I'm done. (I think I said it nicer than this though).

 

[espeteroh]

... you see fellow authors with approx. 30 or more stories up, and all or most of them have recieved and maintained "H" status within the course of 3 years time?

I haven't decided yet whether I'm just a really crappy writer in denial who's got a serious case of the green eyed monster, or if folks are actually rigging it this way by logging into various internet sources and drive-by-voting. Either theories kind of annoy me.

Yeah, I know... votes don't matter. Blah, blah blah. Usually, the ones who preach that are the ones who have won multiple cash prizes and appear in the top stories category with every new submission.

Don't get me wrong... I do have a firm belief in the existance of the infamous 1-bomber, which is also why I find it difficult to accept that those with the most consistant highest rankings aren't being bitch slapped the way the rest of us seem to be. Wouldn't you think they would be attacked first?

End rant.

A question and a request. I'm still pretty new around here so what is "H" status? Can you include a link here to one of your stories. I'd like to read a couple.

Anyway, isn't wirting what you do to please yourself? Sort of a rhetorical question because for me the answer is, yes, absolutely.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Helene, I couldn't find your stories in your sig line? I'm too lazy to look for it.

Wishful,

Having 15 minutes on my hands before the tip-off of the Baylor-LSU basketball game in the women's Final Four, I tracked down the link to Helene's latest story:
http://english.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=180681 ]My First Musical Score[/URL]

IMHO, it might benefit from some tweaking, but it's pretty damn good. Let me know what you think.

Rumple Foreskin

ps: espeteroh - You posted while I was writing my weary words of wisdom. Welcome to the AH. The letter H stands of Hot. Stories with over ten votes and a score of 4.50 or higher earn them. (W = contest winner, E = editor's choice). rf

 

[BlackShanglan]

Anyway, isn't wirting what you do to please yourself?

We call that "wanking" at my house ...

 

[carsonshepherd]

We call that "wanking" at my house ...

*groans while laughing hysterically*

 

[BlackShanglan]

*groans while laughing hysterically*

Sounds like I'm on the right track at last!