Do PYLs punish themselves while punishing pyls?

[Kailey_86]

In the "Where do you sleep?" thread several people mentioned that their PYL doesn't send them to sleep on the floor as punishment because they would feel punished as well. Sir seems to feel differently about this. He says that He will punish me even if He is feeling punished too. This just makes it all the more painful for me. He warns me not to hurt or dissappoint Him (very powerful words to my ears). i find this the worst part of any punishment. Just knowing that i have displeased Him.

Do You, as a PYL, punish Your pyl even if it hurts You too?
Do You, as a PYL, think that it isn't right for You to hurt as well because You shouldn't have to?
Do you, as a pyl, think that it intensifies the punishment if you know that your PYL is being punished as well?

 

[WriterDom]

You mean something like no sex for a month? That would be insane. I think you fit the punishment to the sub, not the sub to the punishment. Focus more on positive reinforcement and reward and if you have to punish do it quickly and move on.

 

[chris9]

I don't think that *only* punishment will get the desired results. That way the pyl would do whatever out of fear for negative consequences. As far as I understand the desire to please the PYL are far more effective in *making* the pyl do what the PYL wants. Also the fear of disappointing the PYL is a strong motive to obey/stay within the rules.
In my theoretical opinion the PYL would not be 'punished' by punishing the pyl, but disappointed by the pyl's behaviour leading to such punishment. So the PYL might not like to have to punish the pyl.

I believe in this thread you'll find something to the use of punishment in relationships. You might also want to read through the relevant part of the library.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't think I would say F is willing to punish himself to punish me, thus he doesn't make me sleep elsewhere just because some fiction and sites say that is how you 'should' treat a slave...IOW, he is his own man and doesn't need to refer to a manual on how to do it and carry on accordingly even if it puts him in the position of denying himself something to make a point to me. I think he gives me credit with having enough intelligence to see that is not a very effective way to go, nor to be impressed by it.

What he does say is he does not like to punish me because it causes a range of emotions in him such as disappointment, frustration, anger, emotional pain, but that will not stop him from doing what he feels is necessary. He is able to separate his feelings from the punishment in that he does not feel he is punished as well, and he is more than capable of making sure he does not miss out on anything he needs and desires because I have messed up...why should he when there are so many ways to punish which need not impact on him in a way which denies him his rights and priviledges as my owner?

Catalina

 

[Bredon]

OT: Chris-- I've enver seen so many PYLs is one sentence I can never read it properly because I always think of PIL (the band) for some reason *lol*

Bredon

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I hate when I have to punish My slave, but I do what I have to do.

She does beat herself up pretty damn good when she disappoints Me.

 

[Netzach]

If I repeatedly have to "punish" a slave, its obvious to me he's not going to work out as a slave.

I've never had to do more than give a short corrective speech to mine after making this much clear to him. No major skin off my butt, but it's not like it feels great to do either.

Sleeping on the floor is a matter of course, whatever I might have used him for up to that point, but that's what I like.

With my husband, who I don't consider owned property, the issue of punishment also takes a back seat to discussion and compromise, so it's also not an issue.

 

[myinnerslut]

i hate hate hate dissapointing or hurting Sir. he knows that and uses it against me. he once restricted me from cuasing myself any pain (as im a masochist, and in a LDR, not with him, this was a pretty big punishment.) he told me that if i did anything to cuase myself pain even though i was forbidden to, he would hurt himself twice as much as i had. he ISNT a masochist. there would be no pleasure in his pain. the idea that i would cuase him that pain was almost unberable. i burst into tears when he told me. needless to say, i didnt dare try hurt myself while forbidden.

 

[Kailey_86]

What he does say is he does not like to punish me because it causes a range of emotions in him such as disappointment, frustration, anger, emotional pain, but that will not stop him from doing what he feels is necessary. He is able to separate his feelings from the punishment in that he does not feel he is punished as well, and he is more than capable of making sure he does not miss out on anything he needs and desires because I have messed up...why should he when there are so many ways to punish which need not impact on him in a way which denies him his rights and priviledges as my owner?

This is more along the lines of what i was thinking in terms of Him feeling punished too. He ends up feeling that range of emotions which hurts Him. The knowledge that i did it to Him hurts me.

....But He is very happy and proud of me right now. i am so happy i don't know what to do with myself. That's a little off topic though, back to the subject at hand...

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is more along the lines of what i was thinking in terms of Him feeling punished too. He ends up feeling that range of emotions which hurts Him. The knowledge that i did it to Him hurts me.

.

I once was in that place but have learned with his help to accept no amount of trying can make me perfect so punishment is apt to be needed occasionally. It is not frequent, but while I take it seriously, I have gotten past beating myself up over it and learned to move forward and accept it as one of life's little realities.

Catalina

 

[insertcutename]

This is more along the lines of what i was thinking in terms of Him feeling punished too. He ends up feeling that range of emotions which hurts Him. The knowledge that i did it to Him hurts me.

I know what you mean. My Daddy is disappointed with me right now, and its something I hope to never do again intentionally. It hurts me more than I can ever explain knowing that i've done something wrong in his eyes.

 

[Etoile]

I'm just musing here...

I think the important thing to remember is that relationships move past temporary pain. Even if a pyl has done something to upset their PYL, and they feel awful because of it and the PYL isn't happy either, life goes on. Similarly, if the PYL chooses to make the pyl sleep on the floor as punishment and thus goes without a warm body in bed, life goes on. If it is habit that the pyl sleeps on the floor, then it's not really punishment, it's just life.

We all disappoint the people we love at times, PYLs and pyls alike. Beating yourself up over it is a natural human response but it doesn't need to be prolonged. Accept the punishment dictated by the PYL, because they are the one who decides what is appropriate. And then, move on.

 

[s_red830]

I'm just musing here...

I think the important thing to remember is that relationships move past temporary pain. Even if a pyl has done something to upset their PYL, and they feel awful because of it and the PYL isn't happy either, life goes on. Similarly, if the PYL chooses to make the pyl sleep on the floor as punishment and thus goes without a warm body in bed, life goes on. If it is habit that the pyl sleeps on the floor, then it's not really punishment, it's just life.

We all disappoint the people we love at times, PYLs and pyls alike. Beating yourself up over it is a natural human response but it doesn't need to be prolonged. Accept the punishment dictated by the PYL, because they are the one who decides what is appropriate. And then, move on.

Good advice, Etoile. Beating yourself up endlessly is pretty counterproductive... that's what makes punishment effective (sometimes), in the sense that you do something wrong, you're punished, it's over with.

As to the question at hand, I might punish myself as a consequence to punishing him if I thought it was something that he really needed to get through his head, but I don't think I'd ever hang it over him or use punishing myself as a means to punish him. That's not my style, and I don't think it'd be that great for the relationship.

 

[tiez]

Do You, as a PYL, punish Your pyl even if it hurts You too?
Do You, as a PYL, think that it isn't right for You to hurt as well because You shouldn't have to?
Do you, as a pyl, think that it intensifies the punishment if you know that your PYL is being punished as well?

Patriotic Youth League ?
Press your luck ?

Help

 

[CutieMouse]

Patriotic Youth League ?
Press your luck ?

Help

PYL- Pick Your Label for Dom/Dome/Top/Master/Etc

pyl- pick your label for submissive/sub/slave/bottom/etc

 

[tiez]

PYL- Pick Your Label for Dom/Dome/Top/Master/Etc

pyl- pick your label for submissive/sub/slave/bottom/etc

Thank you for that.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Do You, as a PYL, punish Your pyl even if it hurts You too?
Do You, as a PYL, think that it isn't right for You to hurt as well because You shouldn't have to?
Do you, as a pyl, think that it intensifies the punishment if you know that your PYL is being punished as well?

Let me start of by saying this...

I do NOT "punish" my slave. I discipline her.
Punish - 1 a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation
2 a : to deal with roughly or harshly b : to inflict injury on : HURT

Discipline - 1 : PUNISHMENT
2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION
3 : a field of study
4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : SELF-CONTROL
6 : a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity

To punish someone is a reactive way of dealing with an error, as part b indicates, in retribution for an offense. Discipline, on the other hand, is a more proactive way of correcting problems, as indicated by the 4th, 5th and 6th definitions. (Thank you Webster!) I don't need to lay a hand on my slave to discipline her. I can give her The Look. Or speak to her in The Voice. I will gather information from her about why an infraction took place, and either change my instructions to be more clear, or I will teach her the skills necessary to accomplish the task assigned, or make sure she has the tools, knowledge and skills necessary.

If she fails at a task I've assigned, it's because something was missing from the equation. It is MY job as her owner to find out what was missing and to fix the problem so that she can accomplish the task. Her failure to complete is MY failure to prepare.

I can't stand dorknuts who assign a task to a submissive or slave, knowing the pyl does not have the skills/knowledge/tools/ability to complete an assignment, in order to have the pyl fail in order to have an excuse to "punish" the pyl. Fuck that noise. Be honest, tell him/her to get their ass bent over and take the swats because you want to give them.

Or teach the pyl to freaking ASK when they need a beating. Hello... stop playing passive-aggressive games. We keep spouting words like "open", "honest", "communication", and "transparency". That takes something more than mind games.

Even worse than the bozos who set up deliberate failure in order to "punish" their pyl's are the asshats who do it in order to belittle, humiliate, and/or destroy the self-esteem of their pyl's. If humiliation scenes are your turn on, that's all well and good. But do it in the context of a SCENE, not within the relationship. As Owners, we should want our pyl's to be champions, not losers. I don't want to own worthless crap, I want to own priceless treasure!!!

'Nuff said! *grin*

 

[CutieMouse]

Mr. Geoff m'dear, may I say I think I love you in a totally-platonic-geeking-on-someone-who-"gets it" sort of way?

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Let me start of by saying this...

I do NOT "punish" my slave. I discipline her.
Punish - 1 a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation
2 a : to deal with roughly or harshly b : to inflict injury on : HURT

Discipline - 1 : PUNISHMENT
2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION
3 : a field of study
4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : SELF-CONTROL
6 : a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity

To punish someone is a reactive way of dealing with an error, as part b indicates, in retribution for an offense. Discipline, on the other hand, is a more proactive way of correcting problems, as indicated by the 4th, 5th and 6th definitions. (Thank you Webster!) I don't need to lay a hand on my slave to discipline her. I can give her The Look. Or speak to her in The Voice. I will gather information from her about why an infraction took place, and either change my instructions to be more clear, or I will teach her the skills necessary to accomplish the task assigned, or make sure she has the tools, knowledge and skills necessary.

If she fails at a task I've assigned, it's because something was missing from the equation. It is MY job as her owner to find out what was missing and to fix the problem so that she can accomplish the task. Her failure to complete is MY failure to prepare.

I can't stand dorknuts who assign a task to a submissive or slave, knowing the pyl does not have the skills/knowledge/tools/ability to complete an assignment, in order to have the pyl fail in order to have an excuse to "punish" the pyl. Fuck that noise. Be honest, tell him/her to get their ass bent over and take the swats because you want to give them.

Or teach the pyl to freaking ASK when they need a beating. Hello... stop playing passive-aggressive games. We keep spouting words like "open", "honest", "communication", and "transparency". That takes something more than mind games.

Even worse than the bozos who set up deliberate failure in order to "punish" their pyl's are the asshats who do it in order to belittle, humiliate, and/or destroy the self-esteem of their pyl's. If humiliation scenes are your turn on, that's all well and good. But do it in the context of a SCENE, not within the relationship. As Owners, we should want our pyl's to be champions, not losers. I don't want to own worthless crap, I want to own priceless treasure!!!

'Nuff said! *grin*

very well put Geoff.

 

[Andante]

Amen!

Let me start of by saying this...

I do NOT "punish" my slave. I discipline her.
Punish - 1 a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation
2 a : to deal with roughly or harshly b : to inflict injury on : HURT

Discipline - 1 : PUNISHMENT
2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION
3 : a field of study
4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : SELF-CONTROL
6 : a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity

To punish someone is a reactive way of dealing with an error, as part b indicates, in retribution for an offense. Discipline, on the other hand, is a more proactive way of correcting problems, as indicated by the 4th, 5th and 6th definitions. (Thank you Webster!) I don't need to lay a hand on my slave to discipline her. I can give her The Look. Or speak to her in The Voice. I will gather information from her about why an infraction took place, and either change my instructions to be more clear, or I will teach her the skills necessary to accomplish the task assigned, or make sure she has the tools, knowledge and skills necessary.

If she fails at a task I've assigned, it's because something was missing from the equation. It is MY job as her owner to find out what was missing and to fix the problem so that she can accomplish the task. Her failure to complete is MY failure to prepare.

I can't stand dorknuts who assign a task to a submissive or slave, knowing the pyl does not have the skills/knowledge/tools/ability to complete an assignment, in order to have the pyl fail in order to have an excuse to "punish" the pyl. Fuck that noise. Be honest, tell him/her to get their ass bent over and take the swats because you want to give them.

Or teach the pyl to freaking ASK when they need a beating. Hello... stop playing passive-aggressive games. We keep spouting words like "open", "honest", "communication", and "transparency". That takes something more than mind games.

Even worse than the bozos who set up deliberate failure in order to "punish" their pyl's are the asshats who do it in order to belittle, humiliate, and/or destroy the self-esteem of their pyl's. If humiliation scenes are your turn on, that's all well and good. But do it in the context of a SCENE, not within the relationship. As Owners, we should want our pyl's to be champions, not losers. I don't want to own worthless crap, I want to own priceless treasure!!!

'Nuff said! *grin*

You said it all - and very well. I agree completely.