Do I really have to write for 8th graders?

[raphy]

I'm very ambivalent when it comes to ADD and DAMP and diseases like that. I think it's hard to tell who's really got a disease and needs special attention, and who is just plain lazy and stupid and pretends to have such a disease to get out of disciplinary work.

It's too bad, because it reflects badly on people who have it and are doing their best to live a normal life, like sweetnpetite. I strive hard to keep an open mind, but it's difficult, because I've seen so many brats flaunting their condition as an excuse to get out of normal discpline in school.

Exactly, 'flicka..

 

[Black Tulip]

I feel I have to say something on this topic after all.

My son has a learning disability, about as dyslexic as you can get, and always was a very active kid. No wonder, reading was not something he could enjoy. Building treehouses and holding playback shows in the back garden were more to his taste.

On the one hand, he never let it bother him and he kept trying to learn what he wanted to know. No lazy bones there, on the contrary. If it would have been me, I would have given up a lot sooner.

On the other hand in the course of time different people asked me how I could cope. A single parent with such an overactive kid. To be honest, the first time my mouth dropped open. I had assumed I was lacking in patience sometimes, never even thought he could be "at fault".

Sure I could have opted for pills, but why would I? My patience was obviously enough. Everybody wants to plaster their kids behind the wallpaper every now and then. That's nothing out of the ordinary. Certainly not reason enough to make him nice and quiet with those lovely pills.

In my opinion a lot of kids get labeled as difficult or whatever, not because their is something wrong with them, but with their parents. They simply do not understand that having kids means you have to set your own wants aside from time to time. Mind you, not always. Kids need to learn to consider other people.

Apart from those who have a serious problem and need help and encouragement from loving parents and good schools, a lot of kids could do with just a parent who would let them be a child. You know, exploring the world and searching for boundaries. And yes, that is annoying the hell out of you at times. You should not have gotten kids then.

Amen.

 

[Guest]

Tulipa Negra, I appreciate what you said and how you said it. You sound a very precious mother.
---------------

On another note, speaking as someone who needs to take certain medication in order to live as well as possible I do take offense at those who would tell me to just "get over it" or that if I set my mind to it I would not get depressed or suicidal. Life is hard but I want to live it well, and my neurotransmitters merely need a bit of help. I can recognize, from a distance of years now, how my own mother might have made things easier for me, but it does not matter now. I feel grateful to be alive and able to take care of myself (most of the time). Good friends help too, more than I can say.

Perdita (hope this means something to someone)

 

[sweetnpetite]

Well now, I never said I wasn't lazy

I'm very ambivalent when it comes to ADD and DAMP and diseases like that. I think it's hard to tell who's really got a disease and needs special attention, and who is just plain lazy and stupid and pretends to have such a disease to get out of disciplinary work.

It's too bad, because it reflects badly on people who have it and are doing their best to live a normal life, like sweetnpetite. I strive hard to keep an open mind, but it's difficult, because I've seen so many brats flaunting their condition as an excuse to get out of normal discpline in school.

 

[sweetnpetite]

It means something to me.

I was just about to say, sometimes kids do need that medication and it isn't for the parent. My son was on medication for ADD, he needed it in order to help him slow down and learn the tools he needed in order to function. Now that he has learned some of them, he may be able to come off the medication. But we would have never been able to get were we are today without the meds.

Some kids are so far beyond the realm of searching boundaries that it is dangerous for them to not be on medication. Some children with ADD have a difficult time getting enough stimulation- and they will do very dangerous things to get the stimulation that they crave. Some have other difficulties that lead them to use/abuse stimulants or other drugs in an effort to feel 'normal' Lots of undiagnosed ADD folks drink 20 cups of coffee a day or other such things.

ADD has to do with neurons and neurons are not controlable for the most part by will power or a can-do attitude. I haven't solved all of my problems related to ADD by far, I just wanted to illustrate that ADD doens't mean 'can't' it does sometimes mean obstacles that others often don't understand.

I also think that I suffer from depression which has never been treated. Right now, I don't have any insurance either. I would love to talk to you about the topic, Perdita if you are interested.

I am not offended, exactly, by anyone here- or at least if I am I won't take it personally. But i think that there are so so so many misconseptions about ADD and they really get on my nerves. It is not an evil lable that keeps kids down. It is not an excuse for special treatment just cuz we are lazy. It is a disability, same as being in a wheelchair or being blind and it sometimes requires special accomodations. It's usually not easy to ask for these accomidations, because we know that many people will think that we are being lazy or whatever, because they can not see our disability.

It is not lazy to ask for more time to take a test when the words and numbers look like they are swimmimng on the page. It's freakin' hard to take a test like that! Just remember everyone, just because you don't understand someone elses difficulty doesn't mean it's not real. there is often more to a situation than meets the eye.

Thanks perdita,

Sweetnpetite

Tulipa Negra, I appreciate what you said and how you said it. You sound a very precious mother.
---------------

On another note, speaking as someone who needs to take certain medication in order to live as well as possible I do take offense at those who would tell me to just "get over it" or that if I set my mind to it I would not get depressed or suicidal. Life is hard but I want to live it well, and my neurotransmitters merely need a bit of help. I can recognize, from a distance of years now, how my own mother might have made things easier for me, but it does not matter now. I feel grateful to be alive and able to take care of myself (most of the time). Good friends help too, more than I can say.

Perdita (hope this means something to someone)

 

[Guest]

Sweet, I was going to PM but perhaps this will be of interest to others.

This para is from the UK site:

"A depressive disorder is a "whole-body" illness, involving your body, mood, and thoughts. It affects the way you eat and sleep, the way you feel about yourself, and the way you think about things. A depressive disorder is not a passing blue mood. It is not a sign of personal weakness or a condition that can be willed or wished away. People with a depressive illness cannot merely "pull themselves together" and get better. Without treatment, symptoms can last for weeks, months, or years. Appropriate treatment, however, can help over 80% of those who suffer from depression. Bipolar depression includes periods of high or mania. Not everyone who is depressed or manic experiences every symptom. Some people experience a few symptoms, some many. Also, severity of symptoms varies with individuals." [me: 'appropriate treatment' is not merely meds.]

UK site

NIMH: Women and depression

The U.S. NIMH is a very fine site and has information for all concerns. Just in time (I mean that literally) I discovered that educating myself was the best thing to do for myself. Then I educated my family and my best friends.

take care, sweetie,

Perdita

 

[sweetnpetite]

Sweet, I was going to PM but perhaps this will be of interest to others.

This para is from the UK site:

"A depressive disorder is a "whole-body" illness, involving your body, mood, and thoughts. It affects the way you eat and sleep, the way you feel about yourself, and the way you think about things. A depressive disorder is not a passing blue mood. It is not a sign of personal weakness or a condition that can be willed or wished away. People with a depressive illness cannot merely "pull themselves together" and get better. Without treatment, symptoms can last for weeks, months, or years. Appropriate treatment, however, can help over 80% of those who suffer from depression. Bipolar depression includes periods of high or mania. Not everyone who is depressed or manic experiences every symptom. Some people experience a few symptoms, some many. Also, severity of symptoms varies with individuals." [me: 'appropriate treatment' is not merely meds.]

UK site

NIMH: Women and depression

The U.S. NIMH is a very fine site and has information for all concerns. Just in time (I mean that literally) I discovered that educating myself was the best thing to do for myself. Then I educated my family and my best friends.

take care, sweetie,

Perdita

so as not to hijack:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215570

I replied to this post in a new thread that I started just for that purpose.

 

[Vincent E]

Sex story for the barely literate masses.

See Jane?
Dick sees Jane.
Jane strips.
Dick sees Jane strip.
Strip Jane, strip.
Dick sees Jane spread.
Spread Jane, spread.
Dick humps Jane.
Bob sees Dick hump Jane.
Hump Dick, hump.
Hump Jane more.
Dick humps Jane more.
Bob strips.
Dick and Jane see Bob strip.
Strip Bob, strip.
Bob humps Jane.
Hump Bob, hump.
Dick humps Bob.
Stop Bob, stop.
Bob does not swing that way.
Swing Bob, swing.
Jane sees strap-on.
Jane straps it on.
Dick spreads for Jane.
Spread Dick, spread.
Jane humps Dick.
Hump Jane, hump.
Bob jerks off.
Jerk Bob, jerk.
Bob shoots his load.
See bob shoot his load?
Shoot Bob, shoot.
Jane finishes Dick.
Jane looks at Bob.
Bob says, "What the fuck. Why not?"
See Bob spread?
Spread Bob, spread.
Jane humps Bob.
Hump Jane, hump.
Bob now swings.
See Bob swing?
Swing Bob, swing.

The End

 

[reohoko]

I enter first chapters/pages of my mainstream romance in contests occasionally, and today I received one back with my three judging sheets (it's a great way to get a quick $25 critique of your work). One judge wrote a rather disheartening comment:

"First of all, it is very obvious that you are very intelligent and educated. That works against us sometimes in today's marketplace. I've marked words throughout the MS that I'm wondering if you should consider changing. We're to write to an eighth grade reading level. You have a beautifully broad vocabulary. I know you can do it!"

The burning question is, do I want to do it? Why should romance (or erotica) have to cater to the lowest common denominator? There are plenty of intelligent, educated women reading romance, and I think they'd appreciate a literate approach.

Oh, the words she marked..."tawdry," "bellicose," and "reverie." Huh?

I find it so incredible that this thread is here. I started college a few weeks ago and my biggest fear was that I wasn't going to be able to write on a high enough grade level to come across like I should be in college. Years of chat atmospheres, online gaming, writing erotica and other lower grade level reading things.

I am happy to report that my papers are coming out on the 12th grade of that thingy. Now... I am having to edit my stories four million times to keep them under 10th .

HELP!!!! *cry

 

[reohoko]

I just wanted to say BIG HUGS TO EVERYONE!!!

I have two children with speech impediments, they struggle in school and become stubborn with English. I figure that sometimes it is hard. I remember having the same problem as they do when I was little (my New England accent is as much my inability to make the "r" sound as it is an accent, but has improved over the years).

Recently many of my friends have recommended I find out if I am ADHD. I, personally, think all doctor's are quacks (no offense to anyone, of course), and that most of the time I am better off finding my own solution(which I usually do ). I am happy with things the way they are, even if I am not completely perfect, short attention span, and never know where anything is. LOL

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: Do I really have to write for 8th graders?

I find it so incredible that this thread is here. I started college a few weeks ago and my biggest fear was that I wasn't going to be able to write on a high enough grade level to come across like I should be in college. Years of chat atmospheres, online gaming, writing erotica and other lower grade level reading things.

I am happy to report that my papers are coming out on the 12th grade of that thingy. Now... I am having to edit my stories four million times to keep them under 10th .

HELP!!!! *cry

You may be surpised to find that yourprofessors will mark you down for writing to a grade level higher than the essay needs.

The quickest way to bring down the grade level of your writing is to search for the word AND to replace it with a period if it is not absolutely essential to the meaning of the sentence.

The second quickest way is to find and remove all of the passive voice in your essay.

Finally, replace most polysylllabic words with acronyms after they're used once -- most useful for chemistry papers; spelling out the full name of most chemical compounds just once can raise the grade level rating by a tenth or more in a moderate length essay.

Writing to a "grade level" is NOT synonymous with writing for a grade.

the need to "write to an eight grade level" is probably better expressed as "The less work your writing is to read, the better it will be received." That applies equally to college professors and "seekers on perversions online."

 

[reohoko]

Re: Re: Re: Do I really have to write for 8th graders?

You may be surpised to find that yourprofessors will mark you down for writing to a grade level higher than the essay needs.

The quickest way to bring down the grade level of your writing is to search for the word AND to replace it with a period if it is not absolutely essential to the meaning of the sentence.

The second quickest way is to find and remove all of the passive voice in your essay.

Finally, replace most polysylllabic words with acronyms after they're used once -- most useful for chemistry papers; spelling out the full name of most chemical compounds just once can raise the grade level rating by a tenth or more in a moderate length essay.

Writing to a "grade level" is NOT synonymous with writing for a grade.

the need to "write to an eight grade level" is probably better expressed as "The less work your writing is to read, the better it will be received." That applies equally to college professors and "seekers on perversions online."

Oh, I thought the better I wrote the smarter I sounded.

That is seriously depressing. Well, I am glad you told me, no one else has so far. Thank you!!! I want a 4.0 GPA, any advice that gets me that is good advice.

HUGS HUGS HUGS

 

[SlickTony]

I was gratified to find that I had a very low incidence of passive voice in my stuff, at least according to the readability stats.

 

[KenJames]

In this context MS = MicroSoft.

In MS Word, under Tools: Spelling and Grammar, the options include Readability Statistics. If you turn that on and do a spelling and grammar check you will get reading ease and grade level scores.

Og

Grammar checker - ugh! Although I'm totally dependent on spell check, I've found the grammar checker can be dangerous if you're doing creative writing. If used slavishly, it will ruthlessly obliterate all traces of personal style.

 

[KenJames]

In this context MS = MicroSoft.

In MS Word, under Tools: Spelling and Grammar, the options include Readability Statistics. If you turn that on and do a spelling and grammar check you will get reading ease and grade level scores.

Og

Grammar checker - ugh! Although I'm totally dependent on spell check, I've found the grammar checker can be dangerous if you're doing creative writing. If used slavishly, it will ruthlessly obliterate all traces of personal style.

 

[Quasimodem]

No, it is not a prerequisite!

Still: "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a spell checker for?"

 

[KenJames]

Grammar checker - ugh! Although I'm totally dependent on spell check, I've found the grammar checker can be dangerous if you're doing creative writing. If used slavishly, it will ruthlessly obliterate all traces of personal style.

Talking to yourself again, Ken. Stop that! (Slap! Ouch!)

The MS Word grammar checker has actually improved and is no longer so fascist in its recommended changes, at least at "casual" level. I still tend to keep it turned off, except when I want to amuse myself by checking readability statistics.

It's sort of humbling to check my stories and find they tend to be slightly below the fifth grade level. I guess I don't have to worry about writing down to my audience . . .

 

[SlickTony]

You don't have to follow all Grammar Check's suggestions. In fact, I ignore 98% of them because I have so little faith in it. As I've pointed out before, it labels all sorts of sentences as "sentence fragments" when I know damn well they're not.

 

[Weird Harold]

You don't have to follow all Grammar Check's suggestions. In fact, I ignore 98% of them because I have so little faith in it. As I've pointed out before, it labels all sorts of sentences as "sentence fragments" when I know damn well they're not.

True, but do you bother to figure out WHY the grammar check thinks there's something wrong with the "fragment?"

I had a lot of trouble with the grammar checker in a story with a character named Frank. The Grammar check had trouble distinguishing the proper sentence structure because "frank" is both an adverb and a verb as well as a name.

Also, you do know that you can turn off various checks in the grammar check to create a custom "style" that causes it to find only the things you find useful and or select "ignore all" for those functions you find annoying.

 

[Boxlicker101]

To continue with the unhijacking of this thread, I have run some of my stories through Spellchecker and I am looking at the readability statistics. Most of them have been 8 and a fraction and that surprised me. I believe I have a good vocabulary, and I have never tried to write down to anybody and I am told I am writing at the level of a Freshman in High School! I think it is based on the average number of words in sentences and that is misleading, as is almost anything that depends on averages. I like to mix long sentences and short ones, and I think it makes the stories flow better. If I have a three word sentence, followed by a 47 word sentence, the average will be 25 words, which says nothing about anything.

I have read rants against grammar checker, and I tend to agree. I usually ignore it because it is usually wrong. Even when it's right, it's usually wrong because it tells me I am using sentence fragments. Frequently, the dialogue will include sentence fragments, because that is how people talk. Q: "Are you going?" A: "Not today." The latter will be called a sentence fragment, and it is intended to be one. Sometimes I even use fragments in the narrative if I think it is effective. Once in a while, though, I will make a mistake, especially when I edit something and neglect to change the verb to agree with the number or something like that, and sometimes I have an extra space between words. Those things I want to catch and correct.

Frequently, I will refer to "my cum" and the checker will tell me that is the wrong order. I don't know what that means but I know it is the right order so I ignore the checker. It makes other dumb mistakes sometimes and I also ignore those. I do use spell checker.

 

[Weird Harold]

Most of them have been 8 and a fraction and that surprised me. I believe I have a good vocabulary, and I have never tried to write down to anybody and I am told I am writing at the level of a Freshman in High School!

No, you're not writing AT the level of a freshman in high school, you're writing FOR a freshman level reader!

I think this is probably the thing that is most misunderstood about grade level ratings -- they are READING levels, NOT writng levels.

I don't know of any formal rating system for "writing grade levels," but I do know that "writing levels" are almost always inversely related to reading levels -- a Freshman in High School generally will write with long, run-on sentences and use ans many big words as they can to "look smarter" and that equates to a reading level of 12th grade or higher.

Conversely, a well educated 12th grader or college student will have learned better grammar and writing technique and naturally write to the lowest reading level required of the material, so that their message can be read easily.

The whole point of "writing to a grade level" is NOT about "writing down to your readers," but about making your readers work no harder than necessary to get your message.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I have been trying it on a story I have in process and I was at 9.7 when I started. I noticed that my sentences were averaging rather long so I went back and broke some down. The last time I checked, it was at 9.0, and I expect it to be lower when I finish the story. 8+ seems to be a good place to aim.

I also notice that the more dialogue a story has, the lower the readability. I guess that dialogue has shorter sentences than narration, which makes sense. I don't use short sentenses during my narration but characters often say things like "Okay.", "Thank you.", or other very short sentences. I don't actually believe that this makes it any more readable but some bureaucrat-type persons might.

 

[Weird Harold]

I don't actually believe that this makes it any more readable but some bureaucrat-type persons might.

Save a copy of the story you're working on (preferably at the original 9.7 GL.)

Finish your edit.

Read each version aloud.

I think you will notice a difference in how easy the lower GL version is to read -- especially if you manage a coresponding increase in the Reading Ease Index as you reduce the GL rating.

However, if by "readable," you actually mean "enjoyable," then I doubt you'll notice much of difference between the two versions by simply breaking long sentences into parts.

 

[Guest]

The whole point of "writing to a grade level" is NOT about "writing down to your readers," but about making your readers work no harder than necessary to get your message.

Harold, that does not make sense to me. I can understand writing at certain levels for young children still learning to read (e.g., developing their vocabularies), but after a certain age (or grade), one is writing "down" if one writes "below" their own level, it seems to me. If I wrote so that a certain grade of reader would not need to work to understand my message I would be writing down to them and below myself.

Perdita

 

[Boxlicker101]

Save a copy of the story you're working on (preferably at the original 9.7 GL.)

Finish your edit.

Read each version aloud.

I think you will notice a difference in how easy the lower GL version is to read -- especially if you manage a coresponding increase in the Reading Ease Index as you reduce the GL rating.

However, if by "readable," you actually mean "enjoyable," then I doubt you'll notice much of difference between the two versions by simply breaking long sentences into parts.

I'm less than halfway through the story now, and I always edit as I go along. I never save pre-edited versions of a story because, if I did, I would have hundreds of versions of the one story.

I have a very low opinion of bureaucrats, because they tend to not think when they are working. If I were to write a story (which I won't) with what Og calls "Virgillian sentences" in the first half, and a lot of very short sentences in the second half, a bureaucrat would look at it and say "Average sentence: 20 words. Good, just what we want, and never mind that the first half is unreadable and the second half is frustrating. Length of words is not a problem, because I tend to use short words anyhow, with a few long ones where they are appropriate. The average length was about 4.5 in everything I have checked. That is the average length of "cock" and "pussy", which explains the consistency.

As an aside: McKenna, as a devout ass-man, I REALLY love your AV.

As another aside: Weird Harold, did you take your name from the "Fat Albert" series?