Do I really have to write for 8th graders?

[LadyJane]

I enter first chapters/pages of my mainstream romance in contests occasionally, and today I received one back with my three judging sheets (it's a great way to get a quick $25 critique of your work). One judge wrote a rather disheartening comment:

"First of all, it is very obvious that you are very intelligent and educated. That works against us sometimes in today's marketplace. I've marked words throughout the MS that I'm wondering if you should consider changing. We're to write to an eighth grade reading level. You have a beautifully broad vocabulary. I know you can do it!"

The burning question is, do I want to do it? Why should romance (or erotica) have to cater to the lowest common denominator? There are plenty of intelligent, educated women reading romance, and I think they'd appreciate a literate approach.

Oh, the words she marked..."tawdry," "bellicose," and "reverie." Huh?

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

LadyJane

It's not a genre issue. Agents and editors in all areas of fiction prefer grade levels of about six or lower (using the MS Word grammar checker scale.)

This tends to reflect length of sentences and words. It has nothing to do with literary quality. Run a few bestseller excerpts through the grammar checker and you'll be stunned. The Lovely Bones was about 4+ which is about a low as they tend to go. A Walk to Remember was about an eight, which was among the highest.

For what it's worth, Faulkner tends to have a high grade level while Hemingway's is low. Both won the Nobel Prize for Lit., but Ernie had more bestsellers.

Rumple

 

[LadyJane]

It's not a genre issue. Agents and editors in all areas of fiction prefer grade levels of about six or lower (using the MS Word grammar checker scale.)

Really, I thought this grade level thing was applicable to newspaper articles not works of fiction. I think she was just referring to my word choice, not my sentence structure - believe me, I'm no William Faulkner in that respect! Just kind of a depressing thought...

I will, however, continue to use the words that I believe fit the best. If that makes my MS stand out, then perhaps that's a good thing - agents/publishers are always paying lip service to "fresh" voices.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Weird Harold]

The burning question is, do I want to do it? Why should romance (or erotica) have to cater to the lowest common denominator? There are plenty of intelligent, educated women reading romance, and I think they'd appreciate a literate approach.

Oh, the words she marked..."tawdry," "bellicose," and "reverie." Huh?

There's nothing wrong with the words she marked as far as grade level is concerned. They are a bit uncommon, but if your readers don't know them, it's time they learned them.

However, the answer to your question is YES, you do want to write to a seventh or eighth grade reading level, or even lower if you can manage it.

The reason is simple: Reading Erotica or Romance with a dictionary and thesaurus at hand is not conducive to getting enjoyment from your reading -- it's too much like studying.

In any fiction genre, the idea is to suck your reader into the story and get them to suspend disbelief. The easier your story is to read -- i.e low grade level and high "reading ease index" -- the easier it is to forget about the mechanics of reading and enjoy the story.

Writing to a lower grade level does NOT mean sacrificing "literacy" or flowery descriptions, it simply means writing so that your story is easy to read.

 

[Icingsugar]

Re: Re: Do I really have to write for 8th graders?

Ignorant Bastard Query: What are those "MS" and grade levels you talk about? I understand the principle behind them, some kind of automation for determining vocabulary and grammar use level in a text, right? So, how doees it work? Where can I find the tools to do this on my own texts? And does it work in other languages than English?

And how would "See Spot run" grade?

/Ice

 

[Dirt Man]

How often have I heard on this site: "Why isn't anybody reading my stories?" If your story reads as if it came right out of a high school text book, then that's one of the reasons why fewer people are reading it. More, and more people are dropping out of school each year. Years later when they find that reading can be fun it's because what they can read is the same level of reading material as their children.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[oggbashan]

Been here before

Have a look at this thread:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201536

My horrible example of a 450 word sentence shows how it is possible to fool MS Word.

Og

 

[Svenskaflicka]

LadyJane, I think it's a matter of who you want reading your novels. I consider myself highly literate, but I've never seen those mwords before (then again, English isn't my first language). Intelligent women who are used to reading advanced literature would probably understand it, but a high-school drop-out housewife in the suburbs perhaps wouldn't.
Are you using those words because they are natural to you, or because you think they sound nice in that text?

My own novels are a bit "poetic" when it comes to vocabulary and sentence-structure, but that's because that's the way I speak in normal life, too.

If you want everyone to be able to read your stories, write in plain English. If you want to express yourself, write however the H you want!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It comes down to this: are you writing for yourself or your sales? Are you writing for the commercial markest, in which case you should probably do what they say, or are you writing for your own gratification, in which case you have to write just as you please?

As far as vocabulary goes, I love words and I assume my readers do too. I might not use the word 'bellicose' in a situation where it was crucial to the story, especially if the meaning were not made clear by context, but I have no scriples about talking up to my readers in that regard. I did recently cut the word "sororal" from a piece and replace it with "sisterly" (which is what it means), but I write with an eye (ear?) towards the rhythm and mouth-feel of the prose and I would be very reluctant to dumb it down. But hey, for $$$ I might reconsider.

It so happens that I've been thinking lately about what level I write for, because I think I'm in the habit or writing a little bit down to my readers, not so much in vocabulary, but in how much I explain to them what's going on. It's the difference between:

"How dare you!" she said, shocked that he would think she was that kind of girl.

and just,

"How dare you!" she said.

leaving the reader to reason out why she said it. That kind of thing.

It's a matter of how much I have to spell out for the reader and how much I can expect them to figure out for themselves. Spelling it all out insures that they know what's going on, but leaving them to figure certain things out is (hopefully) another way to get them involved in the story.

If Mable puts on her tight black skirt before her date with Bernie, do I have t tell my readers that she's feeling a little amorous, or can I rely on them to figure this out for themselves? It's part of the art of story telling.

Recently I've been pulling out the stops, mustering all my vocabulary and writing up to my readers, showing them things and letting the figure them out, and the stories in this series have my highest ratings. This is no doubt partly due to the subject, but I think it's also due to the style as well. It could be the richer language might be more acceptable because of the stories' millieu--upper-class, late 19th century--a time and place we generally associate with a fuller and more expressive vocabulary, so the language is more acceoptable. Certainly it's been a lot more fun to write like this.

In any case, I've never received any feedback saying that my stories are too hard to read. I have received comments lately appreciative of the style. I think in porn especially it's kind of nice to know that the story was written by someone with some intelligence. Kind of makes it more acceptable.

---dr.M.

 

[whispering_surrender]

To be honest, I never really thought about it. *shrug*

I write more with an ear for how it sounds. (Yes, to answer your question, I talk out loud to myself while I write. It drives the dog crazy.) *grin*

And whilst writing, I never really think about other people reading it. I've been writing for years, but only recently started letting other people read it. Every time I think about submitting a story, it involves a multiple day arguement (or argument...*sigh*) with myself over whether I "really" want to submit it. Which, I suppose, means that others get to read what I write approximately three days before a dip in willpower. *wink*

Whisper

 

[Pure]

Yes, 8th grade, if you want to sell to that 'mass market' crowd. That is, after all, the level of many of the *better newspapers (outside the editorial page) and, say, Newsweek magazine. Probably the level of, for example, Stephen King.

Relevant to SvenskaFlicka. I've had the thought of writing porn with restricted vocabulary, for English learners. The idea of limiting to about 1300 words is intriguing (also for romance). (The Basic English movement aimed to reach the world with about 1200 words, an 'international second language'. Add to that a hundred sex terms and you're off to the races!)

J.

 

[akt42002]

erotica u want to write---well u have to cater to the masses.
literature and life--u have to go to a better audience.
but most of all believe in youself and do what you think is right and to hell with the critics.
all the best and sorry for calling a spade one

 

[oggbashan]

I found it easier to write using my whole vocabulary. That is why my earliest stories were full of purple prose, Virgilian sentences and were unreadable.

I assumed that my readers were familiar with Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Tacitus, Greek drama, Shakespeare (of course), Trollope, Dickens, Thackeray, Chaucer etc. etc.

I had references to Milton, Cervantes, Moliere, Racine and so on.

I posted some of them on adult Yahoo groups. The general response was "What the f**k are you writing about?". They are now deleted, destroyed or rewritten in English.

It is more difficult to write effectively with a limited vocabulary but it is possible to convey a wide range of effects with simple words.

My favourite author (after Shakespeare) was Thomas Love Peacock. He loved polysyllabic words. Very few people read him now. Many people can't read him because they don't have the education to appreciate him. I found him when I was 12.

Og

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I found it easier to write using my whole vocabulary. That is why my earliest stories were full of purple prose, Virgilian sentences and were unreadable.

I assumed that my readers were familiar with Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Tacitus, Greek drama, Shakespeare (of course), Trollope, Dickens, Thackeray, Chaucer etc. etc.

I had references to Milton, Cervantes, Moliere, Racine and so on.

"Oh, that a man's reach should exceed his grasp / Or what's a heaven for?"

But anyhow, what's a Virgilian sentence? Besides being Latin, I mean.

---dr.M.

 

[Mhari]

It is sad that writers have to aim for a "lowest common denominator" thing. I find it troublesome as well that most "news magazines" look more like comic books than anything else these days. Kinda makes me think that the US, at least, is steadily getting stupider. As an educator, I'm bothered a great deal by that thought.

Ice: I'm not sure if you were asking what an "MS" is or not, but it's an abbreviation for "manuscript". As for those tools that can determine the grade level of an MS, I'm clueless as well.

 

[oggbashan]

Ice: I'm not sure if you were asking what an "MS" is or not, but it's an abbreviation for "manuscript". As for those tools that can determine the grade level of an MS, I'm clueless as well.

In this context MS = MicroSoft.

In MS Word, under Tools: Spelling and Grammar, the options include Readability Statistics. If you turn that on and do a spelling and grammar check you will get reading ease and grade level scores.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

"Oh, that a man's reach should exceed his grasp / Or what's a heaven for?"

But anyhow, what's a Virgilian sentence? Besides being Latin, I mean.

---dr.M.

Above I referred to an earlier thread. In that I had a Virgilian sentence of 450 words.

Virgilian sentences are full of subordinate clauses, divert from the main course of the sentence, go off into byways which have nothing to do with the real argument, for example a byway in the UK may, or may not be, accessible for motorised vehicles, or might only be reserved for horses and pedestrians, and then come back when you have forgotten where the sentence was leading.

"ex quo loco digressus sum" - from the point where I diverted = turn back three pages and you might get what I'm talking about. Cicero who wrote and spoke in Virgilian sentences. As an advocate he was a disaster because no one could follow his plot.

Og

 

[KillerMuffin]

The quality of literature is not defined by one's ability to throw big words into the mix. The quality of literature is defined by one's ability to put words together to form a story. You could never say that John Steinbeck wasn't a literary genius even though he wrote well below the "lowest common denominator".

Your post, however, smacks of intense hubris. Why should you lower yourself to the level of the common person? You are so much more "intelligent" and "eductated" than everyone else, no? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in that you did not mean to imply that you are so much better than the average person intellectually while insulting the vast majority of English speakers, but you did. And that is the problem with connotation. You don't just mean what you say, you mean what you imply.

So few people try to master connotative vocabulary. It's just denotative, denotative, denotative. Yes, yes, it means such and such, but what does it mean mean? This is where Hemingway really polished his brass. He could take a simple phrase and turn it into something with layers upon layers of complexity just by context. That is where literary genius comes from. I'm going to quit before I begin waxing poetic.

That's not to say oops-I-ate-my-dictionary! prose can't be published. It can be; it's just that it's not going to sell terribly well. Publishers know this because they try it and it tanks. It's not hard to pick up the pattern and do the this-is-what-not-to-do math.

 

[LadyJane]

Great responses. Actually, I do use words like that in every day speech (OK, maybe not "bellicose," which I swapped out for a different word even before the judge's comments), and yes, I DO want to sell my work. So far, no agents have complained about that aspect of my writing (lots of other aspects, but not that one). I'm assuming that alone is not enough to cause an agent to reject me, and if I ever do find an agent and then a publisher and editor, I'll edit as they deem necessary.

Oh, and I've never had any complaints about my word choice here at Lit, but then I think that's because my readers are reading for a different reason...so they tell me.

(P.S., when I used MS, I was referring to manuscript, but it's also the abbreviation for Microsoft.)

 

[LadyJane]

I found it easier to write using my whole vocabulary. That is why my earliest stories were full of purple prose, Virgilian sentences and were unreadable.

I assumed that my readers were familiar with Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Tacitus, Greek drama, Shakespeare (of course), Trollope, Dickens, Thackeray, Chaucer etc. etc.

I had references to Milton, Cervantes, Moliere, Racine and so on.

I posted some of them on adult Yahoo groups. The general response was "What the f**k are you writing about?". They are now deleted, destroyed or rewritten in English.

Og

You crack me up.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[Guest]

LadyJ: I found this easily via 'search', I posted it on a favorite word thread once. Just my defense for using whatever words one knows, or "owns".

My only personal advice, write as you wish for whatever reason you wish.

Perdita
-----------

Concinnity: a skillful, harmonious arrangement of parts; deftly joined; elegance or neatness of literary style.

I learned this word from a retired Oxford don. He wrote to me, “May I proceed with the observation that it is pleasing to find through your letters such a concinnity between our interests.”

Later I noted its use in one of his books and he replied, “I think it was concinnity that the California editor took a little exception to, on the ground that most American students would not know what it meant; but he acceded to my defense that if we decline to use such particularly useful words they will die.”

 

[oggbashan]

I'm agreeing with KillerMuffin again.

It is the use you make of words that is important, not the words you use.

We are not writing theses here. If we are writing fiction for publication then we should write in a way that can be easily understood.

Even restricting yourself to a basic vocabulary it is possible to write on more than one level so that other meanings can be inferred.

The MS Word tool is helpful but like any other tool it needs to be used with knowledge of its limitations.

I don't think my readers are any less intelligent than I am. If I write in simple words and short sentences I know that I can be read by a wider group. Some of our readers do not have English as a native language. Even those who do, use variants of English. I can understand US usage. Sometimes the British usage leads to misunderstanding.

Some English speakers are difficult to follow. The English used on the Indian sub-continent is an example. I have to use a special dictionary "Hobson-Jobson" when I am on some Indian sites. Yet people from that sub-continent can understand US English easily.

My best examplar of simple language is Jean Cocteau. His plays are in simple French but the depth of meaning is immense.

I don't write as I used to. Literotica has taught me that there is a better way to tell my stories.

Og

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Re: About those grade level evaluations...

So this great little evaluation tool was created. Now get this, it's based entirely on the number of syllables per word and the number of words per sentence. That's it. It doesn't take into consideration the quality of the words chosen or anything more than the numbers. Huh?!

Yeah. I have no idea why anyone would submit their prose to this kind of nonsensical evaluation. It's like taking the advice of your MS grammar checker for anything other than finding inadvertent gaffes.

---dr.M.

 

[LadyJane]

Your post, however, smacks of intense hubris. Why should you lower yourself to the level of the common person? You are so much more "intelligent" and "eductated" than everyone else, no? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in that you did not mean to imply that you are so much better than the average person intellectually while insulting the vast majority of English speakers, but you did. And that is the problem with connotation. You don't just mean what you say, you mean what you imply.

My take was that the JUDGE implied I was so much more "intelligent" and "educated" than everyone else because I used those three words in a 15-page chapter (she marked no other words). I don't choose the words I do when I write to show how "intelligent" I am - a poor indicator of intelligence anyway, when anyone can use a thesaurus and dictionary to come up with "big" words. When describing something, I just try to come up with different ways to describe it What's so unusual about describing the decor of a bar as "tawdry"? (See, I just used "describe" three times!)

One of my favorite writers always uses the word "alacrity." I kept reading it in her books, never really knowing its meaning, until I finally looked it up in a dictionary. I didn't feel as if this writer were trying to "show off" or write above my comprehension - we all encounter different words. I like words and use different ones frequently just to keep them alive!

Believe me, after receiving multiple rejections on two books from agents and not winning any contests thus far, I don't have any hubris left (that means conceit, right?)