Do folks want honest feedback or not

[alice]

Constant requests for feedback. People give it to you, then when someone says she didn't like something or that some elements could be better, folks complain they did they're best and why can't anybody see that?

Why bother writing any of you? Really. Are any of you ever satisfied?

alice

 

[ShamelessFlirt]

Constant requests for feedback. People give it to you, then when someone says she didn't like something or that some elements could be better, folks complain they did they're best and why can't anybody see that?

Why bother writing any of you? Really. Are any of you ever satisfied?

alice

There are ways to critique something that people can't argue with. I'm not talking about sugar coating, I'm talking about pointing out technical mistakes such as grammer and spelling as well as talking about what worked from your viewpoint, your personal opinion.

You can give feedback, in the hopes of helping the writer, or you can give feedback to make yourself feel smarter, or to be just plain malicious. Your intentions don't matter if the writer doesn't see them in your response.

All of us feel a certain connection to our writing. I know one poet who calls her poems her "children". I think we tend to be defensive of our work because we know what we meant to convey when we wrote it.

For me, I turn on feedback in the hopes of finding someone who liked my stuff, not to get an education on grammer. One might say "I'm flattery operated".

We're all creatures of habit and of course we all want to be better writers but in a sense we have to discover what works on our own. I'll happily listen to what someone would have liked to hear, or what rule I'm breaking. But some problems are hard to fix. And if it's said to me in a way that's confrontational, I'm not likely to listen.

Personally, I'm satisfied with my poems. I'm sure I can be a bit heavyhanded with the cliches, and some of my poems would be stronger if I changed the imagry or explaind pieces in greater detail. And I need to be told this to become a better writer.

I hope you never hear me make any excuses for what I've written. And I hope people continue to tell me what works for them when they read my stuff. And I hope I'm intelligent enough to not only listen, but hear what's being said.

 

[alice]

Shameless Flirt

Hopefully, a writer has enough confidence and humility to decide if the critic has a valid point. That's all.

alice

 

[WickedEve]

alice

Why bother writing any of you? Really. Are any of you ever satisfied?

Who are you referring to? All the poets here? Or the ones requesting feedback and not dealing well with it? I'm not quite sure when you say, "any of you."
I'd like to know before I comment.

 

[Dillinger]

Yes. I do. But I'm more interested in having someone tell me how my writing made them feel... for better or worse. I honestly don't need someone telling me if my punctuation met their standards or that I didn't follow the approved and accepted form for the style of poem they expected me to write.

I know when I dropped a punctuation mark. I know what a cliche is - tell me if it worked or not - but you don't need to tell me its there - I'm not a fool. Tell me the cliche stood out and distracted from the rest of the poem... that's cool. I've got a cliche in my latest poem - "Heavy Silence" - I remembered a comment made about a cliche in the team effort I was involved with in the first round of the Olympics. And it made me do something I don't often do - question my instincts. I spent a lot of time thinking about that line. Trying to re-write it - remove the "cliche" - you know what? It was the RIGHT line. It works. It says exactly what I wanted to say. I ended up keeping it. I know its there. Thanks.

I get a bit frustrated with people picking a poem to the bones... practically to the point where they're almost questioning whether a word is in the dictionary or not. You can't. You can't break it to pieces and have it maintain its meaning. Too many people overlook the gestalt. Some lines cannot exist in isolation from other lines. Take them out of the poem and they have no meaning.

I'm not saying you can't question what works and what doesn't - but you have to do so in context of the whole. Otherwise any critical feedback is meaningless.
Did my poem or my story make an impact? That's what I want to know. Did I make you smile? Did I make you cry? Did I make your cock hard, your pussy wet? Did I make you think "what a fucking asshole." Did I affect you at all?

 

[Whispersecret]

Oh, Dill, my hackles are up, mainly because I feel like you're referring to me, at least in part.

I want to reply in detail, but I haven't the energy right now and I planned to get to bed early to have some great sex. So, I'll get back to you.

 

[mskittykatt]

did i miss somewhere on here where you offered feedback that wasn't taken the way you meant it?

 

[Whispersecret]

Not sure if Kitti is talking to me or not, but I'm replying as if she was.

It's difficult to answer. Not everyone to whom I've given feedback has responded, not that they're required to. I just take umbrage at the tone of Dill's post and the fact that he seems to think that pointing out punctuation errors and the presence of cliches is useless.

My purposes in giving feedback are:

--to help the writer improve, using whatever knowledge I have (or think I have) to analyze what I feel might be lacking,
--to give the writer my perspective when I read it, which may differ greatly from his intention,
--to use my ability as a proofreader to help writers avoid making embarrassing errors when posting a work for public consumption,
--to point out areas in the work that I felt worked well, so the writer can mark that as an area of strength in their own capabilities,
--and to help the writer feel like they are part of a group (as hopefully I am, as well) that shares a common bond--the desire to write well.

Now I'm going to go have an orgasm or two or ten and to give one. I'll address Dill's post tomorrow.

 

[perks]

Constant requests for feedback. People give it to you, then when someone says she didn't like something or that some elements could be better, folks complain they did they're best and why can't anybody see that?

Why bother writing any of you? Really. Are any of you ever satisfied?

alice

I love feedback. I expect it to be complete. If you make a statement about my writing, provide an example. Give me a suggestion for a solution. Don't just say there is a problem. The feedback might be that you just don't care for it. How does that help my writing? I feel that feedback is for me, not for the person reading the poetry. It's about how I can hone my skill, my knowledge.

I also expect to be able to discuss my writing, to defend it, to debate specific points of it. The person writing the feedback shouldn't think that one writing of an opinion is the end of the story. Feedback is a process. It's an opening of debate.

in my opinion,
perky

 

[mskittykatt]

<hugs>

Whisper,
my post was not directed at you! <<<hugs>>> but it is good to see what feedback really means to you! it seems to be different for different people.

 

[Dillinger]

I only have a minute... have to head to the airport but didn't want to leave this hanging.

WS - not directed at you or anyone in particular. Just a general rant. *smile*

All comments - any feedback - any help is appreciated. I guess what I'm aiming at is that it seems, to me, that the bigger picture too often gets lost in the details. I understand that people are trying to help but first and foremost is - did the poem MOVE you... everything else is secondary to that.

I'll take a flawed poem that SPEAKS to me any day over a technically correct poem that is sterile.

So again - not directed at anyone. And WS - you know I value your comments and your support or I'd never ask you for your advice, as I have and will again.

 

[alice]

good discussion

Wicked Eve,

"Any of you" was general. Not picking on one person. If it doesn't apply I don't assume someone is talking to me.

perky, discussion is great. Dialogue gets things clear. Simply being defensive doesn't accomplish anything.

mskitty, I read more than I post. I usually send my comments private. Yes, I have seen folks here either fail to acknowledge someone has taken the time to write them or complain. Disagree is an option.

Dillinger, telling you a comma or word is misspelled is offering help.The reader knows it was on purpose? If the error bothers me then I am telling you that I disliked something about your poem.


alice

 

[daughter]

picking a poem apart

I am not frustrated when someone points out areas of concern in a poem. If you bake a cake without egg it directly affects the whole. I know that I am guilty at times for not being thorough in explaining why a particular thing in a work irks me. I am also guilty of failing to say why I like something as a whole. I'll work on it.

As far as things like punctuation and spelling, I argue they are important enough to discuss. When someone misspells or leaves out syntax, I do ask if it's effective. If I'm complaining about it, then I am saying it has a negative effect on the read as a whole. If you run a red light into oncoming traffic, that's a problem. That is how I feel when I think punctuation is needed. Conversely, one of my favorite poets, Sonia Sanchez is a master of syntax free verse so I am not against the lack of punctuation. I dislike poor application of technique.

Whether I agree with a critique or not, I believe the proper etiquette is to thank the critic for taking time to comment. If I believe I have a legitimate reason for doing something the reader disliked, I will share it. I won't argue the reader should accept my explanation no more than I would expect a writer to accept my critique simply because I pointed out things I found troublesome. How many times can we say, "Toss or use"? All parties should substantiate their argument and let it stand. There is no debate. Either points are accepted or rejected.

Dillinger, I'm frustrated, too. Do I have to spend more time worrying if what I say bruises a sensitive poet or can I honestly talk about a poem without being criticized for being mean? I want to talk about poetry, words on a page and how they affect me. So I am analytical. That doesn't mean I don't see the whole picture. I talk in parts, because I think your efforts have merit. I'm not going to chuck it as a whole rather I'm going to illuminate on the parts that failed the whole.

I can count on one hand how many bother to tell me what isn't working in my favor. Frankly, I need help and I am frustrated that so few will tell me, "D, if you work on 'x', I think it would enhance the read."

I don't need a cheerleader. We all have fans and thank God for them. I need someone with the gumption and willingness to help me become a better writer.

Peace,

daughter

 

[perks]

I don't need a cheerleader. We all have fans and thank God for them. I need someone with the gumption and willingness to help me become a better writer.

god, this is so completely true. Let me add. I also need a critic that can take criticism of their critique. Case in point, the first poet I critiqued on here was daughter. I was aggressive. I made points, and she came back at me. It was THRILLING. One of the best poetry experiences I've had. I stuck by some of my original opinions, but in the debate, in the defense of her poetry, her thought, her spoken word, I was able to see clearly some things I hadn't before. I learned more about my art, by critiquing another's.

This is what criticism is all about, the give and take, the sharing of opinions, what works, what doesn't.

I will continue to be aggressively defensive of my "children", I also will take the criticism of them. I think it is important to stand strong for points about your writing that make it what it is. Without certain parts of my style, my poetry wouldn't be noticeable as mine. If someone reads your poetry, do they know it is yours? Unequivocably, people know my voice.

Daughter stated that my vulagrity<hubby calls them my 4C's(cock, cum, cunt, clit)>,matched with my "voice", is like an SUV in a 50's movie. God I totally understood what she said. It was poignant, and she has a great and valid point. However, <smile> If my only goal were to be writing in an archaic style I would agree. We know this is not the case. I do, however, realize that my buzz words aren't completely working, because of her opinion. I will not change them just to fix the style, I will try to find a better way to incorporate them to better showcase my "voice". Criticism is wonderful, it is important to the sculptural qualities of your poetic "voice". It's the way you choose to use that tool that makes you a better writer or not.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Some want it, some don't.

In the Story Feedback forum I learned to only give my critique to those who specifically ask me for my critique. The same will now apply here.

There are some writers who want to be lied to. I don't lie. I am not going to spend my time and a great deal of effort on a critique to have someone come back at me as if what I said has no merit simply because it's not a glowing accolade. I will not spend the hour or so it takes for me to make a critique just so that I can be tossed off with "well, if that's not your cup of tea, there's nothing that I can do about it."

Quite frankly, when I make a critique, I don't care if it's the best the writer can do. I don't care what kind of circumstances surrounded the creation of the poem. I don't care if the writer cannot separate him or her self from the poem. I don't think about the writer's feelings at all. I think about the story or poem, how I reacted to it, what I liked and what I didn't like about it. I think about the technical aspects and I think about the communication aspects. I think about the piece, not the writer.

No more Critiques unasked for. That's it, I've had it with whining, bawling primadonnas. I'm not a mother. I'm not a best good girlfriend. I'm not a lover. I critique. I don't patronize.

Color me highly pissed off over this entire fiasco.

 

[daughter]

KillerMuffin

Whenever the mood strikes you, I would appreciate your opinion. I respect and welcome your stance.

perky, you know i gotcha back. I don't foresee ever revoking your sista card. LOL

Peace,

daughter

 

[Ded Poet]

tear it up

For my part, my reason for submitting material to
this site was expressely for the purpose of receiving criticism. I am under no illusions about the quality of my work--I am a rank amateur, and i NEED criticism. I need to know how and why specific poems suck in order to write better in the future. Just getting a few nice words here and there or 'it didn't work for me' does nothing to improve my writing.

I think a good idea might be to start a thread where people submit poems to be critiqued--that way they are asking for it. I would be first in line.

I can understand how many people want to simply write for emotional catharsis, or to entertain a certain segment of the public, etc. Those people perhaps have a right to pursue their agenda without being subjected to the treatment some of us are begging for. If Dillinger thinks his poems are all right as they are, who can tell him otherwise? Is he asking for criticism?

I will say that if you ask for it, you better be willing to take it, although there's nothing wrong with defending your work if you really believe a certain jot or tittle (or lack thereof) has merit.

Write on,

DP

 

[Whispersecret]

Long assed post warning

Amazing what good sex and enough sleep can do for your disposition.

I agree with everything I just read. Many good points about criticism there.

It's impossible to know when you critique someone's work if they will be able to objectively look at your comments or will instead slam those shields up and flail about reflexively, hearing nothing. It's a risk I take when I offer a critique, and when I find someone who doesn't seem to be listening, or whose arguments in defense of their work seem weak, I am discouraged. Like KM, I wonder, what did I waste my time for then?

I assumed that anyone who participated in the Poetry Olympics wanted honest feedback, which I what I gave. If I forgot to mention what a particular poem meant to me, you'll have to forgive me. I always try to include at least one positive comment in my critiques, and if I failed to do that for anyone, I apologize.

As far as what daughter said about stop lights and punctuation, I agree. However, I understand that I am a teacher and errors like that are red flags to me, while they may not be to someone else.

BUT...

Frankly, if a mark belongs there and helps ANYONE read and understand the poem better, then why not include it? WHY? What's the reason for leaving it out? Don't talk to me about the visual aspect, because I can't see that a tiny pixel makes that much difference. If it does, perhaps the rest of the poem isn't strong enough.

Anyone who has ever argued about their decision to leave out a comma, period, etal. has always seemed to be more interested in deviating from the norm and making some rebellious statement about not conforming to the standard than anything else. Yes, I am a teacher, genetically predisposed to enforce the adherance to proper English, but I'm also objective enough to recognize when the breaking of a rule is valid. You'll just have to take my word for it that I've read un-punctuated, ungrammatical poetry and not been bothered.

Furthermore, Dill, I know that you're an intelligent fellow, but I just cannot blithely assume that anyone, including you, who does not include a punctuation mark in their poem is doing so ON PURPOSE. Unfortunately, and perhaps this is a personal flaw of mine, I assume they've made a mistake. Judging from the vast majority of posts, poems, stories posted on this forum, I don't think that's a strange assumption to make.

And cliches? On principle, I dislike them, however, one cliche within a poem does not a stupid poem make. I can excuse a poet or writer their use of a cliche if the rest of the work is strong enough to support it. But there is a point at which the burden of relying on cliche becomes too much and the poem becomes trite and uninspiring.

Now, someone please take this soapbox away from me.

 

[ShamelessFlirt]

We are the children who disappointed their parents

Allow me to speak hypothetically and to generalize for a moment. I don’t wholly agree, but I believe this may explain part of the reasons some people have a problem with feedback.

You speak to us as though we’re all professional writers when we’re really just wannabes hoping for recognition still learning to express ourselves on a site full of people we revere.

You’re who we aspire to be, who’s achievements we challenge and who’s shadow we live in. Part of the reason we write the way we do is because we don’t have the understanding you do. We read your words and see the talent, recognize that there’s something there and yet we’re unable to emulate it.

Personally, I appreciate feedback. Muffin critiqued a story of mine, and I think I thanked her for a week straight. I’d like to think my latest story benefited from her critique. But I didn’t ask her to look at it. Not because I was afraid of hearing anything negative, but because I was afraid of falling short. Repeating the same mistakes I made last time. Why should I waste her time if I can’t listen to her in the first place?

You are the people we admire. When you say something we feel we should have seen, we not only feel stupid but defeated. If it’s out of ignorance or arrogance, you have to realize that if we knew what we were doing was wrong, we wouldn’t have done it in the first place.

You’re helping us to see our words through your eyes. We know you’re right, that’s why it stings. We didn’t see it in the first place.

I know I need to be told what I’m doing wrong in order to correct it. I appreciate being able to benefit from everyone’s experience, not just the veterans. I’ll dust myself off, and get back up and keep going.

But the next time someone whines, ask yourself if it’s because you’re wrong or because you’re right.

 

[SA Storm]

.

 

[daughter]

WhisperSecret

Girl--

I hear on the lovin'! LOL I got me some, too. You know I was thinking of you when I read this thread and you know we're on the same page.

Once folks make it clear that they're not interested in the effort and time I make, it's okay. Takes too much time to worry or write. I need to spend more time on my own work, and I'll write to those who are interested. It just ain't that serious.

Now, you know we're too big to share this itty bitty box, so get off already. LMAO

Peace,

daughter

 

[Dillinger]

If my stories and poems are as poor as getting my point across as my posts here have been, I really need A LOT of help... *smile*

I do want and appreciate comments and criticisms. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. The one point that I am trying to stress is to not neglect the whole at the expense of the particular.

I thank any and all of you who have ever read my work or ever will and I do appreciate your comments. I never meant any of my statements to imply that my work cannot stand improvement. I was only trying to inject a bit of perspective into this discussion.

 

[Whispersecret]

Rest easy, Dill, I got your point. I know you appreciate criticism. I see your point about the whole vs. the details. Both are important and yet the details can hinder appreciation of the whole, so why take a chance?

My rant was more a general frustration with people who have no committment to their work, beyond the need to defend it with excuses or hide when the honesty hits its mark.

Edited to add: That is not to say that rational discussion in defense of one's choices in the course of their writing is not the same as making excuses. The difference is in whether the writer listened to the criticism, thought about it, and then defended with solid reasons.

 

[RisiaSkye]

I appreciate feedback immensely. To me, this includes everything from "you skipped a comma" to "that story really made me hot," and everything in between. The kind of in-depth analysis that people like Whisper, Muff & daughter are wililng to offer is an invaluable help to me as a writer both trying to reach an audience and looking to improve. In fact, one of the best feedbacks I ever got was from Whispersecret, over a year ago when I was a new writer to Lit. The gist of it was "there are major flaws here, (details), but I really think you've got promise. I hope you keep working." In the end, this was more motivating than 50 anonymous "good job" responses could ever be.

Like a lot of people, sometimes my first instinct is to defend my work. Call it immature, call it shallow, call it whatever you will, that instinct is there. Usually, I fight it until it goes away and I can really hear the critique. Then, that critique can be tremendously helpful.

Sometimes I'm a child. But, I'm a child that's ready and willing to learn, once I can play grown-up long enough to take a little instruction.

After all, if I wanted cheerleaders, I would have gone into sports or politics, where cheerleaders and yes-men abound.

 

[Whispersecret]

In fact, one of the best feedbacks I ever got was from Whispersecret, over a year ago when I was a new writer to Lit. The gist of it was "there are major flaws here, (details), but I really think you've got promise. I hope you keep working." In the end, this was more motivating than 50 anonymous "good job" responses could ever be.

Wow. This is the second time that someone mentioned my critique of their work making a big impact on them, when, to be honest, I'd forgotten I'd even said anything to them. (Yes, I'm going to be forty LOL and my memory is like a bucket with a hole in it.)

Like a lot of people, sometimes my first instinct is to defend my work. Call it immature, call it shallow, call it whatever you will, that instinct is there. Usually, I fight it until it goes away and I can really hear the critique. Then, that critique can be tremendously helpful.

Hey, I'm childish too. UP recently commented on a poem of mine and the back of my neck got all hot, and rationalizations flared up in my mind as quick as you please. However, I must be maturing, because a couple of years ago the hackles would have been up for a day or so, but now that outrage (that someone would dare criticize my masterpiece) only lasts a couple of minutes. Course, it helps that he said something nice too.