Diversity. Debate. Dissent.

[lavender]

 

[seXieleXie]

i think i'm glad you're back lavy

i also think you have ruined teddy ruxpen (sp?) for me forever.

and i also think i need to stay the hell off lit until i'm done studying for my midterm.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I thrive upon dissent, discussion and debate. This desire for this type of communication is not because I seek controversy, it's not because I wish to be aggressive, it's not because there is anger in me that needs to be vented. My love for diversity, my longing for debate, and the love of dissent has more to do with my feelings about how we learn, how we as individuals and society evolve.

i agree with you lavster. i come here mostly for intellectual stimulation. i want to be forced to think about my ideas, opinions, actions and feelings. i post fluff too, because i also like to laugh and have a good time. but for me, the meat of the board is in the rambling discussions about any number of topics.

i appreciate the diversity here, because there is so little of it in my offline world. i live in a white town, participate in a mostly white sport, and can go weeks without laying eyes on a person who's not 'just like me'. sometimes, the sameness makes me crazy. but i log on here, and can talk to many people who i wouldn't ever get an opportunity to interact with in my daily life.

i crave diversity, crave well thought out, respectful argument, crave dissent in the sense that it makes me think about why i think the things i do. if everyone agreed with me, i'd be bored out of my skull.

and you thought your post was rambling...

 

[Tim1]

Ok

I'm going to respond to your thread although as you probably know, I'm one on "those " who come here for fun.

The quote is right on. I agree with every word of it. Although I don't feel that for a change Pres. Bush had a good speech writer.

Lots of people come to the boards for different reasons. As you know Lav some come to disrupt, while others come to spew shit.

You see I haven't been here that long and I don't think,as opposed to feel that there must be an effort to try to change the boards. True alot of the threads are well.....less than creative. But on the other hand as you stated you can start a thread which requires someone to think. I will probably even read it, but may not enter in it.

Since I don't belong to any other boards I guess I don't see things the same as you. I first and formost came here to get away from the same ol shit I do every day at work and to entertain myself while I'm here. Much as many people watch stupid sitcoms. Some are good while others aren't.

I love to enter into discussions as you discribe, but not usually while I come here FOR FUN.

If i was here all the time I may think differently but since I'm here off and on as time allows, please pardon me if I come here for fun

Oh BTW I do understand where your coming from I just don't agree.

 

[Guest]

 

[Texan]

Aaaaaaahh.... lavender...."sigh"

You finally agree with something G.W. says enough to quote him in favorable terms...... and you have to go spoil it by saying, "For once, Bush had some good speech writers."

Let down your guard darlin... I know that deep down inside, you are really a conservative who wants to come out of the closet....

Just kidding..... welcome back to the fray...

I wanted to make a more constructive reply, but I couldn't find anything in your post with which to disagree. You already know I love a good debate, and I'm not much into "fluff".

 

[patient1]

Yeah ,it's easier to say you come here for fun, and pass those threads up.

But I understand that we're not always in the mood for that sort of thing, like my disastrous grand jury vs. preliminary hearing thread....well maybe the narrow focus was the reason for the failure, but it was an example of one Lavvy wasn't in the mood for.

But I think it's great that you , Lavvy,



take the responsibillity upon yourself to post the kind of thread you want to see more of, the way that I started a positive thread in response to a flood of negativity.

 

[riff]

I come here for fun

I come here for fun. Everything that I come here for is described in lavender's initial post. Someone said "Intellectual Stimulation." That's fun. Texan said "fluff." That is fun too.


Have I ever not had fun on lit? U bet. But it's why I come here.

 

[Desdemona]

I agree with the substance of the quote.

However, I come here for fun. I get all the debate, dissent and diversity one woman could ever ask for 5 days a week; every single week. I think you have every right to get your quota of debate, dissent and diversity here. I may read these types of threads from time to time but will rarely participate. That would make me very one dimensional, considering how I spend my time at work.

So... I'm asserting my right to come relax, be silly or flirt most of the time. Please, don't put anybody down for having a good time. It really doesn't make us less intelligent or valuable to the community. We just have diverse needs.

 

[riff]

Re: I agree with the substance of the quote.

However, I come here for fun. I get all the debate, dissent and diversity one woman could ever ask for 5 days a week; every single week. I think you have every right to get your quota of debate, dissent and diversity here. I may read these types of threads from time to time but will rarely participate. That would make me very one dimensional, considering how I spend my time at work.

So... I'm asserting my right to come relax, be silly or flirt most of the time. Please, don't put anybody down for having a good time. It really doesn't make us less intelligent or valuable to the community. We just have diverse needs.

HERE! HERE!

~raises glass to Desdemona~

 

[thumbs2_ca]

I come here to relax

I deal with the public 5 to 6 days a week.
I am mentally tired by the end of the day and I have had enough debate and conflict by the time I come to the board.
If that makes me one dimensional, because that is the side of me you see the most, then I guess I am.
I enjoy Lit very much and I enjoy reading the so called intellectual threads as much as the fluff, although sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.
I understand people coming here to have debate and conflict if that is what they are looking for then all the power to them.
We all come here for different reasons and to escape different things.

 

[lavender]

 

[patient1]

Debate is not strife, so long as it remains issue-oriented & respectful. Judging another's morality is the bridge between issue & person.

 

[riff]

More thoughts on the quote?

"In a free society, diversity is not disorder. Debate is not strife. And dissent is not revolution."

OK, my pitch:

Free society- What is "free?"
Disorder- What is "disorder?"
Revolution- What is "revolution?"

Anyone, tell me.

Society is us.
Diversity is variousness, multitudenousness.
Dissent is active disagreement.

Those I think I understand.

The spirit of the line is well-meant, I think, but I find the first 3 terms I listed problematic.

 

[scrymettet]

More thoughts on the quote?

"In a free society, diversity is not disorder. Debate is not strife. And dissent is not revolution."

Unlike you, i can't forget who is saying that. The whole sentence looks like a ad for lobbyist. Don't go on the street to demonstrate but in our cozy offices. Contribute.

 

[InternationalFunboy]

There are alot of reasons why I don't debate or argue with people online.

1)Squaring off with a person that you are wholly unfamiliar with (values, morals, state of mind) can just be a waste of time. Even the best laid argument may not sway a person who will stand their ground out of hard headed pride or just confuse with fickleness. So why bother? I'd sooner argue with the wall of my bedroom which has my vintage Cheryl Tiegs poster, one of those wrinkled old lady laughing machines with the tongue that wags in and out and an exact mold of lavender's uterus and vagina, from which I was birthed two weeks ago today, cast in foam rubber.

2) I think that alot of people speak from the heart when they debate online but my experience has been that most would be debaters try to impress with diction and their ability to form a written argument complete with clever references and snippy little barbs at other debaters rather than the heart of the matter. It turns into a one-up contest with the ease of info-gathering on the web making one-upping easy as pie.

3) I suck at it. Even in real life.....I hardly do it here either. I was alot more active in debate as a teen but I realized that any question that spawns endless debate has no right answer - nobody ever wins and it got boring hearing the same arguments again and again and again.

In my posts I try to create a new reality....one in which everyone can be funny and attractive, creative and open and silly and accepted. Nobody's feeling are hurt, nobody's temper flairs. A place that is timeless.

Plus the only real debates here seem to be about politics, which i could honestly give two shits and a fuck about.

 

[NoRegrets]

Shrub should lead by example!!!

While I also like the quote it is fascinating to contrast it with what bush said post 9-11 while lining up the coalition to rearrange the rubble in Afghanistan. I do not know the exact quote but my best recollection is, if you are not with us you are the enemy.

I find the inconsistency troubling.

There are some things worth fighting for. Even as a left leaner I feel that a military response was appropriate. Yet to imply that disagreement makes you the enemy was a blatant attempt to prevent legitimate public discourse.

Would I still be the enemy if I objected to bombing the "Axis of Evil"?

What ever happened to; I deplore what you say but defend your right to say it?



Thanks Lav I will try to start a thread or 2 like this myself because complaining is silly. I do sometime wonder if a moderator might agree to move some of the posts to the personals forum. Maybe there should be a sports forum as well considering the volume.

 

[riff]

There are alot of reasons why I don't debate or argue with people online.

1)Squaring off with a person that you are wholly unfamiliar with (values, morals, state of mind) can just be a waste of time. Even the best laid argument may not sway a person who will stand their ground out of hard headed pride or just confuse with fickleness. So why bother? I'd sooner argue with the wall of my bedroom which has my vintage Cheryl Tiegs poster, one of those wrinkled old lady laughing machines with the tongue that wags in and out and an exact mold of lavender's uterus and vagina, from which I was birthed two weeks ago today, cast in foam rubber.

2) I think that alot of people speak from the heart when they debate online but my experience has been that most would be debaters try to impress with diction and their ability to form a written argument complete with clever references and snippy little barbs at other debaters rather than the heart of the matter. It turns into a one-up contest with the ease of info-gathering on the web making one-upping easy as pie.

3) I suck at it. Even in real life.....I hardly do it here either. I was alot more active in debate as a teen but I realized that any question that spawns endless debate has no right answer - nobody ever wins and it got boring hearing the same arguments again and again and again.

In my posts I try to create a new reality....one in which everyone can be funny and attractive, creative and open and silly and accepted. Nobody's feeling are hurt, nobody's temper flairs. A place that is timeless.

Plus the only real debates here seem to be about politics, which i could honestly give two shits and a fuck about.

Know whatcha mean, know whatcha mean.....

 

[Cheyenne]

Lavy, of COURSE you enjoy the dissent and debate- you're going to be a lawyer! You coach a debate team! Dissent and debate is your life! And there is nothing wrong with that. It just isn't for all people.

Like some of the others here, I get plenty of dissent and debate during my working hours. Sometimes I just want to come here and read what others say. I don't want to have to come up with a well-thought out opinion and a well-worded post. Other times my RL is kind of quiet and I come here to join a good discussion. What I post here depends on my mood before I even turn the computer on. Wouldn't this place be boring if it turned into ALL dissent and debate? Everyone posting serious opinions all the time? I guess that is where the diversity comes in. I like the diversity of the board, too.

 

[Thomas Paine]

More thoughts on the quote?

"In a free society, diversity is not disorder. Debate is not strife. And dissent is not revolution."

Thoughts? Sure...

I think a lot depends on how you look at what Curious George said. If you view it as his embracing the Three D's (diversity, debate and dissent) as positive parts of the American experience, then his quote is quite admirable. He would then appear to be distinguishing the positive, moderate activities from their unwanted extremes, and implying that, in each case, we are enjoying the former and rejecting the latter.

However, George W. has never seemed to me to be a guy who particularly embraces diversity, debate or dissent. I don't think it's unfair to deconstruct his quote a little and consider that he may mean just the opposite, that some people are trying to disguise disorder as dissent, strife as debate and revolution as dissent. I realize that Lavender presented this pearl out of context for a reason, but I'd like to know the ambience that surrounded it before I decided for myself which way W's wind was blowing that day.

 

[Texan]

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/ea/uschina/bushqinghua.htm

Here is a link to the text of Bush's speech in China on Feb 22nd. The link is to the Department of State's official page.

 

[Dillinger]

Well - now that we're all diverse and happy to disagree - lets get to the topic at hand?

"In a free society, diversity is not disorder. Debate is not strife. And dissent is not revolution."

Its got a nice ring to it. And when you actually take a close look at the component parts it says quite a bit in a few short words. It sounds good - and it has some real meaning. Excellent speech writing.

Diversity is not disorder. Hell yeah. I'm not sure he actually believes that but it sure sounds good. I believe it.

Debate is not strife. It shouldn't be. But it often is. Those who truly know how to debate issues rather than personalities, who back their points with knowledge and research, can debate without strife. Unfortunately what most people call debate is actually arguement and that IS strife.

Dissent is not revolution. Not per se. But dissent can lead to revolution - especially in non-Democratic countries. Dissent in the United States is not revolution - in the best of times it leads to debate and change. In the worst of times we have incidents like the 1968 Chicago Democratic National Convention. But even then, that became part of our history and had its place in leading to some changes that have perhaps improved our society. Certainly gave at least some of a wake up call, if nothing else.

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -- Frank Zappa

 

[seXieleXie]

"In a free society, diversity is not disorder. Debate is not strife. And dissent is not revolution."

i love that quote, now if only it were true.

i think the following sentiments were expressed in "born on the 4th of july" but i can't really remember. if i'm plagarizing, i apologize.

i don't believe in the catch phrase "america, love it or leave it." i do love america, but i don't think it's perfect. there are real problems in this country that aren't being solved. there is real need for change. i can disagree, i can dissent, i can argue. it doesn't mean i want to overthrow the government and burn the white house.

 

[lavender]

 

[Laurel]

But, in many instances it is the people who express dissatisfaction, who challenge the system, who hold the system accountable for its flaws and failures, that are the true patriots.

Hell yeah. As our forefathers pointed out:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

Protest and debate is what America is all about.