Dialogue help please

[mjl2010]

So my story finally posted after a long week of waiting. I got some good feedback and I appreciate that.

Wife Christina got some good comments and some good votes. I got some not so nice anonymous emails too. No big deal I can handle that.

Some have said the dialogue is stilted. It doesn't flow well. There have been similar comments. Most people say the story is good. The dialogue isn't so hot. I read the story and wonder.

So what separates bad dialogue from good? Good from great? What makes for really good dialogue.

Thanks in advance

MJL

 

[Darkniciad]

I have to agree that the dialogue feels a little wooden. Part of this comes from the Father-in-law/Boss, but I don't feel there's any problem with him being formal. The proposal also would have a bit of formal flair to the language, so that doesn't really bump too much either.

It's hard to describe what exactly the problem is. Most people don't speak with anything resembling proper grammar. Fragments, slang, split infinitives... they all come out naturally when you speak. I think you may be concentrating a bit too much on having your characters speak with a strong command of the language.

Let them loose a little. Bad grammar in dialogue doesn't count against you ( just watch the spelling! )

I think you could stand to have a little more description in with the dialogue. Describe some body language in there with whatever they're saying. A nod, a shrug, a wink, a deep breath... adds some life to the dialogue.

 

[RogueLurker]

Dark is correct in that most people don't speak formal, grammatically correct english in normal conversations. Contractions, slang .. that is what you tend to hear when people are talking to one another - but don't go overboard in making things too informal.

Sometimes it's a good test to read the dialogue out loud .. that way you can hear it and see if it sounds natural to you.

 

[cloudy]

Dark is correct in that most people don't speak formal, grammatically correct english in normal conversations. Contractions, slang .. that is what you tend to hear when people are talking to one another - but don't go overboard in making things too informal.

Sometimes it's a good test to read the dialogue out loud .. that way you can hear it and see if it sounds natural to you.

Yes, exactly.

Hang out at the food court at your local mall, or any place there's likely to be a good many people just hanging around, talking with their friends, and just listen.

People rarely speak in complete sentences; they shorten/slur words (i.e. gonna, wanna, dunno, etc.), and in the case of good friends, or a couple that has been together awhile, they tend to finish each other's sentences, or just leave out the end of a sentence altogether.

Not sure how good an example this is, but it's sorta what I'm talking about (from one of my stories):

"I guess I'm just tired, y'all...too much studying, or something, I don't know." She pushed her dark hair behind her ears. "I think I'm just going to go to bed. I'll feel a lot better, I guess, after I get some sleep."

"Well...if you're sure." Nicole began. "I sure do hate to leave you in this big house all by yourself. Maybe you should grab a few things, and just stay at my house tonight."

"No, I'll be fine. It doesn't bother me to stay here alone, you know that." Danielle just wanted some peace to figure out what had actually happened in her room that evening.

"I'd rather you came down to my house, but okay, if you'd rather stay here..." Nicole's voice trailed off.

One of my problems is that all my characters tend to speak with a southern accent.

 

[RogueLurker]

One of my problems is that all my characters tend to speak with a southern accent.

Just add an ", eh" at the end and they will magically become Canadian.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Dialogue does a couple of things:

First it lets the reader become aquainted with the character and mentally interact with the conversation. That helps to draw the reader into your story.

The other thing it does, it shows the reader who the character is, how they think and how they react.

Dark and Rogue are absolutely right. Write it like you say it. When you get several characters speaking dialogue you can throw in an idiom or two here and there for each.

Another point - I've seen an argument from time to time (on Lit and elsewhere) about dialogue tags. I've seen some people say you ALWAYS use them. Other say, Why?

Personally, I don't use them much, as I see you didn't in your story. I find it easier to say something like:

"Yes, Harold. I know that's what you mean."

rather than

"Yes," she said (answered, replied, or whatever). "I know that's what you mean."

I think it's cleaner, less repetitive and just as easy for the reader to follow.

 

[sethp]

same here.

I have a very similar problem with my dialogue. My dialogue is almost like an after thought it's one of my weaknesses. Most of my stories have very sparse dialogue. so anyways you aren't alone in this!

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I have a very similar problem with my dialogue. My dialogue is almost like an after thought it's one of my weaknesses. Most of my stories have very sparse dialogue. so anyways you aren't alone in this!

Remember what I commented in the AH? We create these characters in our heads and they rattle around in there, sometimes for years, until we KNOW them. Then when we write the dialogue it comes out more like a person talking.

 

[Darkniciad]

Dialogue does a couple of things:

First it lets the reader become aquainted with the character and mentally interact with the conversation. That helps to draw the reader into your story.

The other thing it does, it shows the reader who the character is, how they think and how they react.

Dark and Rogue are absolutely right. Write it like you say it. When you get several characters speaking dialogue you can throw in an idiom or two here and there for each.

Another point - I've seen an argument from time to time (on Lit and elsewhere) about dialogue tags. I've seen some people say you ALWAYS use them. Other say, Why?

Personally, I don't use them much, as I see you didn't in your story. I find it easier to say something like:

"Yes, Harold. I know that's what you mean."

rather than

"Yes," she said (answered, replied, or whatever). "I know that's what you mean."

I think it's cleaner, less repetitive and just as easy for the reader to follow.

Depends upon the audiance, and how large the cast of currently speaking characters is *laugh*

If you have three or four people talking, it's almost a necessity to use a lot of them. You can only sprinkle in the names so many times before they get out of hand. If you have nicknames for them, that helps, but even then you run into trouble eventually. With the tags, you can shoot for other descriptors ("redhead" or whatever) to mix it up.

I started out using very few tags, then moved toward using them on a near constant basis, and now I'm moving away from them a bit, trying to find a balance.

I find that if there are more than two characters in a scene, I prefer to have more tags than not in there, when I'm reading.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Depends upon the audiance, and how large the cast of currently speaking characters is *laugh*

If you have three or four people talking, it's almost a necessity to use a lot of them. You can only sprinkle in the names so many times before they get out of hand. If you have nicknames for them, that helps, but even then you run into trouble eventually. With the tags, you can shoot for other descriptors ("redhead" or whatever) to mix it up.

I started out using very few tags, then moved toward using them on a near constant basis, and now I'm moving away from them a bit, trying to find a balance.

I find that if there are more than two characters in a scene, I prefer to have more tags than not in there, when I'm reading.

True. If you have two or three people in a conversation. You can usually get away with few tags. I never have more than that in a story with one exception: Main characters talk, but occasionally background characters will interject with a tag. Like a waiter comes to you table during a conversation or something like that.

In my longer pieces, I will have 10 - 15 main characters who speak. That gets tricky without tags.

 

[cloudy]

Just add an ", eh" at the end and they will magically become Canadian.

I do both.

I'm so ashamed.

(add the Saugeen rez accent to the mix, and my accent's totally fucked up)

 

[RogueLurker]

I do both.

I'm so ashamed.

(add the Saugeen rez accent to the mix, and my accent's totally fucked up)

I'm certain I'd swoon if I heard it.

 

[cloudy]

I'm certain I'd swoon if I heard it.

My accent has been labeled "Southern Ojibway" by everyone on the rez.

 

[Many Feathers]

Hey Cloudy!

My accent has been labeled "Southern Ojibway" by everyone on the rez.

Been a while my sweet sister. Wanted to say hello. And BTW...I have that picture of you in your AV.

 

[cloudy]

Been a while my sweet sister. Wanted to say hello. And BTW...I have that picture of you in your AV.

Hi, baby! I sure have missed you.

(you have a pm, btw)

wiin ge ginoo apane giinan giigido.

(I'm learning Ojibway - is that cool, or what?)

 

[Many Feathers]

Nice...

Hi, baby! I sure have missed you.

(you have a pm, btw)

wiin ge ginoo apane giinan giigido.

(I'm learning Ojibway - is that cool, or what?)

DeaseN ne quaa’ deboofoi- sosoni' (And I am learning Shoshone)

 

[cloudy]

DeaseN ne quaa’ deboofoi- sosoni' (And I am learning Shoshone)

Much coolness.

Hey, did you know that Choctaw and Shoshone are related, language-wise?

I have soooo much to tell you.

 

[Many Feathers]

Matter of fact...

Much coolness.

Hey, did you know that Choctaw and Shoshone are related, language-wise?

I have soooo much to tell you.

I learned that. There's a woman I met who's been teaching me Shoshone (Shoshoni). Her name is Choctaw woman in fact. LOL.

And yes...we need to chat. Want to hear all.

 

[mjl2010]

Thanks!

To everyone who responded. I feel a lot better about it now. If you folks had any idea how much time I spent taking thier dialogue from a casual way of speaking to what it is now, you'd all laugh at me.

Now I had started that on the follow ups to that story and will go back and change it to the way it was.

Oh yeah, so it's normal to hear their voices when you're writing? I swear sometimes I can hear them (my characters) speak. Especially in the huge thing I wrote and need to revisit soon. Or am I just nuts?

Thanks again.

MJL

 

[Darkniciad]

Perfectly natural to me to hear the character's voices, but then again -- I'm a bit off *laugh*

My characters take on a full life of their own when I write. Most of the time, I have little more than an outline, and the people running around in the story end up determining how I get there... if they don't run off on their own tangent while thumbing their nose at me.

To everyone who responded. I feel a lot better about it now. If you folks had any idea how much time I spent taking thier dialogue from a casual way of speaking to what it is now, you'd all laugh at me.

Now I had started that on the follow ups to that story and will go back and change it to the way it was.

Oh yeah, so it's normal to hear their voices when you're writing? I swear sometimes I can hear them (my characters) speak. Especially in the huge thing I wrote and need to revisit soon. Or am I just nuts?

Thanks again.

MJL

 

[elfin_odalisque]

To everyone who responded. I feel a lot better about it now. If you folks had any idea how much time I spent taking thier dialogue from a casual way of speaking to what it is now, you'd all laugh at me.

Now I had started that on the follow ups to that story and will go back and change it to the way it was.

Oh yeah, so it's normal to hear their voices when you're writing? I swear sometimes I can hear them (my characters) speak. Especially in the huge thing I wrote and need to revisit soon. Or am I just nuts?

Thanks again.

MJL

I really enjoyed your story - charm, love and respect, with a nice undercurrent of passion.

I agree with most of what Cloudy, Jenny, Dark,Rogue etc. have written, but I have a couple of cents to add.

If you write in the first person (I), dialogue is going to be a bit difficult. It means you are talking/writing to me - bit like high school essays. You probably have to revert to - her father told me to...

If you try third person, (mjl strode forward...) you put the reader in the middle of the action rather than hearing a story. It is always better to be the fly on the wall.

Then, the dialogue flows better - although I would guess this is not from a typical anglo-saxon heritage.

The overall point I would make is that you didn't 'place'your characters. If you read the posts above with the love-fest between Cloudy and Many Feathers, you are drawn in to a native american environment.

I liked your dialogue. I found it respectful, loving and a tad old-fashioned. All I think you have to do is describe a bit more the ethnicity and the timeline of your story.

Please post another one.

 

[Dragonteeth]

Dialogue does a couple of things:

First it lets the reader become aquainted with the character and mentally interact with the conversation. That helps to draw the reader into your story.

The other thing it does, it shows the reader who the character is, how they think and how they react.

Another point - I've seen an argument from time to time (on Lit and elsewhere) about dialogue tags. I've seen some people say you ALWAYS use them. Other say, Why?

Personally, I don't use them much, as I see you didn't in your story. I find it easier to say something like:

"Yes, Harold. I know that's what you mean."

rather than

"Yes," she said (answered, replied, or whatever). "I know that's what you mean."

I think it's cleaner, less repetitive and just as easy for the reader to follow.

A lot also depends on how your charracters are differentiated. It'th eathy to Identhify the one with the lithp, are da one wiv da slang innit. Though of course I'd usually reccomentd you don't charachterize EVERY word, maybe one or two words per sentence should be enough to identify the speaker if they have a distinctive voice.

The question is whether it is clear to the reader, who is speaking. If it's clear from the dialogue, then you don't need to add the "tag" if it may be ambiguous then add some "Non-Verbal" elemets, either the ubiquitous "He Said/She Said" or some of the Descriptors that have been suggested. Remember something like 80% of communication is non-verbal.

I don't think that there is any problem "hearing your Charrachters talk". I often find myself in a state of mind where I'm "in the moment" with the characters. The trick is to get your readers into that state of mind too.

One does one's humble best.

 

[cloudy]

The overall point I would make is that you didn't 'place'your characters. If you read the posts above with the love-fest between Cloudy and Many Feathers, you are drawn in to a native american environment.

Wow - we did that without even realizing it.


Niin aawi sa menishe'.

I'm so embarassed.

 

[DonFox]

Glad you appreciate my feedback, MJL. Hope you understand that it was all meant to be constructive and not in any way derogatory. I like the tone of your story and am anxious to see HONEYMOON CABIN!

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Wow - we did that without even realizing it.


Niin aawi sa menishe'.

I'm so embarassed.

Yeah, course ya did. It was nice.

Hope 'Nin aawi sa menishe' isn't putting a hex on me.