Dialog

[Ray Dario]

Here's a question for all you wonderful writers her at Lit.

How much "other stuff" can/should be included with dialog?

Take this example:


Becky walked into the room. "You bastard!" She slapped Mike full on the left cheek, leaving a bright red mark. Turning to Greg she put her hands on her hips and glared at him for a second before reaching into her purse and pulling out a small envelope. She emptied the contents onto the low coffee table. "He photographed us together and then tried to blackmail me into having sex with him." Her eyes flicked back up to lock onto Greg's face as the photo's registered on his face.


Is it better done this way?


Becky walked into the room.

"You bastard!" She slapped Mike full on the left cheek, leaving a bright red mark.

Turning to Greg she put her hands on her hips and glared at him for a second before reaching into her purse and pulling out a small envelope. She emptied the contents onto the low coffee table.

"He photographed us together and then tried to blackmail me into having sex with him." Her eyes flicked back up to lock onto Greg's face as the photo's registered on his face


Would you rewrite it some other way? What is the best general rule for this?

Ray

 

[KillerMuffin]

You missed the most important piece of dialogue. It takes two.

I don't know about you, but if someone called me a bastard and smacked me upside the head, I'd get pretty hot under the collar. I wouldn't even wait for her to explain it before at the least demanding to know why.

"You <I>bastard!</I>" Becky slapped Mike full on the left cheeck, leaving a bright red mark.

"What'd you do that for?!" Mike rubbed his cheek.

She yanked a small envelope out of her purse and dumped its contents on the coffee table. She glared at Greg. "He photographed us together and then tried to blackmail me into having sex with him."

Shocked blossomed on Greg's face as the photos registered. "Oh my God."


Dialogue is generally more exciting when more people are doing it.

Incidentally, you're using too many words and describing things that aren't necessary. I'm not sure what came immediately before Becky came into the room, but unless she's not walking you don't need to point it out. Everyone walks into rooms. Walk is the wrong verb, though. One simply does not "walk" into a premeditated confrontation.

Use both dialogue and actions to tell the story. You don't need to have a chunk of speech and then narrative to describe the scene when dialogue interspersed with action will do it for you.

You aren't using dialogue to its full potential. DoctorMuffie prescribes dialogue exercises. Pick a story at random by an author who does a less than spectacular job with dialogue, pick a single scene with speech in it and rewrite it. It's better to do this someone else's stuff than your own because you have no vested interest in the story and you aren't thinking about how to make the story better. Idea!

Ack. Oh well. The HTML is a habit when Lit's on the brain.

 

[Ray Dario]

Thanks KM, everything you said was right, but it wasn't where I was really going with this. My fault for writing such a bad example My only excuse was that I hurried way too much. Let me try again.



Becky charged into the room, her cheeks flushed and eyes narrowed. "You bastard!" She slapped Mike full on the left cheek, leaving a bright red mark. Without giving Mike a chance to respond she spun to Greg and yanked a small envelope out of her purse. Dumping its contents on the coffee table, she glared at him. "He photographed us together and then tried to blackmail me into having sex with him."

Mike grabbed her shoulder and spun her back around. "You stupid bitch! No one hits me and get's away with it." He drew back his hand but before he could swing, Greg's fist slammed into his face. The sickening sound of breaking cartilage filled the room and Mike fell back clutching his bleeding nose.


Or


Becky charged into the room, her cheeks flushed and eyes narrowed.

"You bastard!" She slapped Mike full on the left cheek, leaving a bright red mark.

Without giving Mike a chance to respond she spun toward Greg and yanked a small envelope out of her purse. Dumping its contents on the coffee table, she glared at him.

"He photographed us together and then tried to blackmail me into having sex with him."

Mike grabbed her shoulder and spun her back around.

"You stupid bitch! No one hits me and get's away with it." He drew back his hand but before he could swing, Greg's fist slammed into his face.

The sickening sound of breaking cartilage filled the room and Mike fell back clutching his bleeding nose.


Again, while EVERYTHING KM said was right and great editing, the question is. How much other stuff should be clumped together in the paragraph with dialog.

We all know that with a change of speaker you start a new paragraph, right? But when the speaker doesn't change, how much stuff can/should be included between the talking? Maybe this segment could even be done like this.


Becky charged into the room, her cheeks flushed and eyes narrowed.

"You bastard!" She slapped Mike full on the left cheek, leaving a bright red mark. Without giving Mike a chance to respond she spun toward Greg and yanked a small envelope out of her purse. Dumping its contents on the coffee table, she glared at him. "He photographed us together and then tried to blackmail me into having sex with him."

Mike grabbed her shoulder and spun her back around. "You stupid bitch! No one hits me and get's away with it." He drew back his hand but before he could swing, Greg's fist slammed into his face. The sickening sound of breaking cartilage filled the room and Mike fell back clutching his bleeding nose.


So, ignoring my poor writing and concentrating on what is clumped together with dialog, which version of this segment is the best and how would you rewrite it.

Ray

 

[Ask For More]

Just my humble opinion...

I would prefer this version, although altered slightly..

Becky charged into the room, her cheeks flushed and eyes narrowed.

"You bastard!" She slapped Mike full on the left cheek, leaving a bright red mark.

Without giving Mike a chance to respond she spun toward Greg and yanked a small envelope out of her purse. Dumping its contents on the coffee table, she glared at him.

"He photographed us together and then tried to blackmail me into having sex with him."

Mike grabbed her shoulder and spun her back around.

"You stupid bitch! No one hits me and get's away with it." He drew back his hand but before he could swing, Greg's fist slammed into his face. The sickening sound of breaking cartilage filled the room and Mike fell back clutching his bleeding nose.

I think those last two lines would be more comfortable together. Splitting them up makes it a little more disjointed than I would like. Now each paragraph is for a different action.

It does sound much better now that the original piece you had.

 

[MysteryWriter]

gee whiZ

Goes to show I thought you wrote dialogue like people really talk. I had no idea there was more than one way. Wow live and learn I guess.

 

[Ray Dario]

Re: gee whiZ

Goes to show I thought you wrote dialogue like people really talk. I had no idea there was more than one way. Wow live and learn I guess.

The words they say should definently be the way they really talk. It's the other stuff packed around those words that I'm trying to get a discussion of. And if you feel my little segment is not how people really talk ... well you may be right, but it's not the point.

Just so that everyone knows. This is not coming from a story I'm writing or anything else, I just whipped it up on the spur of the moment to serve as an example of what I was asking.

This whole thread comes from me seeing stories here on Lit done so many different ways. I always seperate dialog; sometimes I throw in another sentence to let the reader know who is talking, sometimes I don't. Some writers just sort of mingle it in to whatever paragraph is there at the time. Some more do something in between. I just wanted to start a discussion about it, 'cause I think that it's interesting.

Ray

 

[KillerMuffin]

Well that makes a bit more sense.

Same principle applies here, Ray. If you want to have action that feels fast and furious you'll want to have more paragraphs and less words in them. Go for feel. If you want to have action that's slower, then use longer paragraphs.

I think that in a scene like this one you'll want it to feel like there's a lot of fury in the room. You'll want it to feel like everyone is about to explode. You'll want your descriptors to be hard words and not end in -ly if you can avoid it. You'll want your sentences to be shorter and to feel accusatory or snappish.

The best method is to intersperse dialogue and action no matter who is speaking. To make it feel more natural you can stick in a sentence or two as a response from another character.

"You bastard!"

Mike clenched his fists.

"How could you?" She slapped him full on the cheek.

I know that's not what you're after, exactly, but it's just to illustrate something.

See when a reader moves quickly down a page the reader feels like something fast is going on. When a reader moves slowly down a page, the reader feels more calm about what's happening. Large blocks of text will slow the reader down and take away from the impact of the scene. You'll want to keep paragraphs and sentences relatively short, but not full of simple sentences.

An important thing to look for is connotation of your words. "Bright, red mark." Bright is a happy word. It's accurate, but it's happy. Angry is a popular one with words associated with bodily injury. It's also emotive. An angry red mark tells a stronger story than a bright red one.

 

[wildsweetone]

Didn't there used to be a rule of thumb something along the lines of 'new thought, new paragraph'?
God forbid that i think anyone should start following rules tho

 

[WildLynx]

I hope you don't mind a comment by a reader.

I prefer short, hard hitting dialogue with the absolute minimum of added prose. Killermuffins' last post is an example of what I prefer.

When long blocks of prose are appended to a conversation, my eyes glaze over, and I loose my concentration on the story.

In fictional dialogue I expect to hear a conversation between two or more characters, without the authors' "voice-over" describing non-verbal action.

or maybe I have attention deficit disorder...

sorry for interrupting.

 

[Axeltheswede]

Dialogue

No interruption at all, Wildlynx. You make a very valid point. One of the major things to look for as a story is revised is overwritten dialogue. It is hard to make it crisp and clear who is speaking. The author knows. But it is a constant balance between too many attributions and too few.

 

[MysteryWriter]

at the risk of sounding redundant

If you watch a woman who is angry go at people, you can get her vibes without an explaination of her every move. Most of the extras dont really add to the story... I wouldnt care as a reader if the coffee table was low. I dont even care that the slap left a red mark.

Sally stormed in, went directly to Ed ,then slapped hell out of him.

She turned to Paul, "That bastard tried to blackmail me."

"What?" Paul asked.

"He had pictures of us. He tried to use them to force me to have sex with him."

I can tell from the reading she is really really pissed. She has given all the information to Paul that she needs. She has also given it to the reader now the reader knows she is pissed and knows why. It is all the reader wants to know. Also to justify slapping hell out of The first guy. It is how a person acts. It is my opinion which probably isnt worth anything at all.

 

[wildsweetone]

Ray, dare i make a suggestion...?

how about trying the 300 or less thread and seeing how it works to write a short story. that will give you some good training about being specific and brief whilst keeping the flow of the story virtually untouched.

 

[MaxSebastian]

In my opinion it's fine to add three or four words of description or labelling to a piece of dialogue, but no more usually.

Dialogue is the greatest gift there is to fiction writers, because it breathes life into narration. It's the same in journalism - you have to have quotes. But if you hide dialogue in hefty paragraphs, you're wasting the prime opportunity dialogue gives you to put a bit of oomph into your prose.

For me, there's no one better at dialogue than Elmore Leonard - read any of his novels and you'll see how he maximises the flow of the speech and keeps the reader's eye moving onwards by refraining from cluttering his dialogue with too much decription.

And it's okay to start a new paragraph when the same person is still talking, I think - if another character can't get a word in edgeways. Particularly if you are forced to put a descriptive sentence directly after a quote - then I'd definitely start the next sentence of speech on a new line.

But I agree with KM completely - dialogue should wherever possible have more than one character, otherwise it isn't technically 'dialogue', it's monologue.

Don't waste your dialogue, people!

 

[MysteryWriter]

as usual

We are again trying to improve on life. Maybe someone can do it. For me writing is not some great complicated endeavor. It is simply telling tale to a few friends. If it reads like a story between friends, then it is right. If it reads like a college project, then it isn't going to be really anything but one.

Try getting an audio read program. Have your story read to you. If it sounds cumbersome then it is.

 

[Ray Dario]

I give up.

Okay, I give up. Sorry for wasting space here on the board. Since absolutely no one got what I was asking I am obviously to blame. My chosen example sucked and threw everyone off the intended subject. Not that the ensueing discussion was bad. It wasn't, in fact, it was great, but it wasn't about what I had hoped for. I think what threw people off was my (possible) misuse of the term "dialog". I used the word 'cause I don't know what else to call it when I quote something the character says. I didn't mean the full blown interaction between characters, I was going for a much more nitty-gritty paragraph formation kind of discussion.

Damn, I just can't walk away without trying one more time.

How much stuff that the character does not say should be included IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH with what the character does say?

Should it be limited to no more than a single sentence letting the reader know who is speaking or can spoken words be included in a single paragraph with many other sentences that are not what a character says?

 

[KillerMuffin]

*smack* Stop apologizing. You didn't do anything wrong. You didn't waste space. Your question is perfectly legitimate and it's a question a lot of people have.

There's an easy answer. How much stuff around the dialogue? Enough, but not too much. How can you tell? What's the rule? You can't tell and there is no rule.

Keep a few things in mind:

It is difficult to read large blocks of text. Large blocks of text will make a reader start to skim just to get through it. Large blocks of text feel like molasses to get through.

What's that got to do with the stuf around dialogue? Easy. If you've got one person talking, then doing a few things, then saying something again, you need to break it up. Why? Large blocks of text feel like molasses to get through.

Words don't just have a meaning. They have a connotation, feel if you will, and they have sound. Sound plays straight to feel. A rock is different from a stone. Rocks are jagged and rough. Stone are smooth and easy. Sentences also have a feel to them. The more words you use the calmer they feel, the more relaxed. Using less words is terse and it can have a lot of impact to a reader. A caveat-- do not use strings of simple sentences.

The best way to figure out how to intersperse action and dialogue is to read it. Like Max said, Elmore Leonard. Even if you don't police fiction the man is a master with dialogue.

This is what I, personally, prefer to see:

"Dialogue from Character 1." Action Action Action.

Action, preferably from another character.

"Dialogue from Character 1." Action Action Action.

Action Action Action Action.

I like to see smaller paragraphs and I like to see characters interacting. If there is more than one character present, make them interact even if there is only one character speaking or doing most of the movements. Character development is essentially Action and then Reaction.

Does that help? If not ask more questions, please. You're not only learning yourself, you're teaching me, too.

 

[Ray Dario]

*smack*

Oooh, I got smacked by KillerMuffin Makes it all worth while

Does that help? If not ask more questions, please. You're not only learning yourself, you're teaching me, too.

Yes KM, that is exactly what I was asking! Thanks.

Now I know that KM IS the definitive authority here but how about some dissenting opinions.

Ray

 

[wildsweetone]

The more words you use the calmer they feel, the more relaxed.

i'm trying to agree with this sentence KM, but finding it very difficult. surely it depends on the words used?

 

[WildLynx]

Readers Perspective Again

How much description, or character rumination to include in the same paragraph with the characters dialog? From my perspective the only correct answer is... that depends.

Don't you just hate that?

In your example Ray D, the emotional state of the characters requires a minimum of added exposition so the reader gets the feel of an intense confrontation.

At least in part, the pace of the dialog, and the characters state of mind dictates the amount of material you can add before a reader gives up. The hotter the argument, the less you add.

Hmm. I sound like a professor, sorry.

Keep talking, I am learning a lot too. Thanks for allowing me to join in..

 

[Whispersecret]

My opinion

Your first example was too much. My rule of thumb is not to include too much "other stuff" along with the dialogue. Like someone above said--each new idea should have its own paragraph.

The main idea of a dialogue paragraph is the dialogue, plus maybe one action that goes on while the speaker is speaking.

If there is a several-sentence description of action either preceding or following, it deserves a paragraph of its own too. The main idea being a chunk of action.

Readers are programmed to expect one idea per paragraph. When you start messing with that, it will feel discordant to the reader. At the very least, he may not realize that the story isn't as smooth as it should be, but it will subtly interfere with his enjoyment of the story. At the most, your narrative will be confusing.

Hope that helps.

 

[wildsweetone]

Like someone above said--each new idea should have its own paragraph

recognition at last! ty WS, it means so much.

 

[MysteryWriter]

can we do that

If we can recognize ourselves I would like to say MW had a hell of a piece of dialogue there.

 

[wildsweetone]

wake up MW

i was thanking whispersecret, dear. one should always thank ones superiors, it's respectful

u gotta put ya specs on so u can tell the difference 'twixt us.

 

[wildsweetone]

but i do have to agree

that was a hell of a piece of dialogue there, dear.