Derry British Army Barracks to Close

[kotori]

I'm so glad that many of you enjoyed yesterday's discussion on Sinn Féin in Westminster. It seems that Ireland is the one place there is a significant crack in the "special relationship" between Britain and the U.S. The discussion of terrorism is particularly timely.

This is from today's RTÉ (Radio-Telefís Éireann / Irish National Broadcasting) News Update:

DERRY BRITISH ARMY BARRACKS TO CLOSE
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ebrington British Army barracks in Derry is to close, Sir Ronnie Flanagan announced today. The Chief Constable of the North's Police Service said that the 500 troops are to be moved back to England. He also said that another watchtower in South Armagh is to be dismantled.

Meanwhile, the Northern Secretary has called on all political parties in the North to support the police service in its efforts to arrest paramilitary killers. Dr John Reid insisted that police were doing everything possible to arrest and charge those behind the killings. He said that the full backing of every political party was vital in aiding their efforts.

In a separate development, David Trimble has condemned British government plans to grant amnesties to Republicans who are technically on the run. The amnesty would apply to those whose offences were committed before the Good Friday Agreement was signed.

The two governments had described the proposals as a "natural development" of the early release scheme under the Agreement. The Ulster Unionist leader said today that it would be "outrageous and morally unacceptable to allow IRA exiles to return while doing nothing for those forced out of Northern
Ireland by the IRA".

Mr Trimble was speaking following talks at Downing Street this morning with Tony Blair. He said that he had made clear to the British prime minister that there would be "a negative impact on public confidence" if he proceeded with the amnesties.

A Downing Street spokesman later told RTÉ News that it could be some time before the amnesties were introduced and that British officials were still "working through the cases case by case".

He said: "It's a complex issue and you need to find out what you're dealing with." The proposals had been put forward in a communiqué issued by the two governments following talks between the Taoiseach, Mr Blair and the Northern parties at Weston Park in Shropshire last summer.

* * *

Glossary:
Derry--a city and county in the north of Ireland refered to the British as "Londonderry." Successfully withstood a Jacobite seige in the 17th Century, it was also the birthplace of the modern Catholic civil rights movement which lead to the current "Troubles."
North's Police Service--successor to the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary), a name which had become so associated with official government sponsored terror, it was impossible to integrate.
Ulster Unionist Party--majority party in the Northern Ireland Assembly, generally centrist; rules in coalition with other Loyalist (pro-British) as well as Nationalist (pro-Republican) parties.
Downing Street--shorthand for the current British government, in the same way "White House" is shorthand for the current American administration.
Taoiseach--pronouced "tee-shack;" the Irish Prime Minister, currently Bertie Ahern of the Fianna Fáil party (which has ruled the republic for most of it's existance).

 

[Cherry]

DERRY BRITISH ARMY BARRACKS TO CLOSE

Sounds like a step in the right direction.

The towers are not only an eye sore to the countryside, but a thorn in the side to the Nationalist neighborhoods.

I really have to admire Tony Blair's courage and fairness lately. He doesn't seem to be faltering to the objectors ... he's making some very tough and unpopular concessions, much to the dismay of the "NO" vote. For those who would argue the point, deregulation is as integral of a part of the Belfast Agreement as any other component. Compromise and concessions are more effective than name calling and blame.



Meanwhile, the Northern Secretary has called on all political parties in the North to support the police service in its efforts to arrest paramilitary killers. Dr John Reid insisted that police were doing everything possible to arrest and charge those behind the killings. He said that the full backing of every political party was vital in aiding their efforts.


It certainly would encourage good faith in the community when arrests and prosecution of the Loyalist parliamentaries were forthcoming. For too long, Loyalist terrorism has been blessed by the police force (RUC collusion), while Nationalist sympathizers are jailed/treated unfairly for being even sympathetic.

On a side note, I wish that Sinn Fein would accept the challenge of changing the inequities while serving on the new police force. It doesn't comply fully to the Patten recommendations, but they may be able to have a better influence to change the development while becoming a part of the start. The SDLP took the high road on that issue, I believe.

 

[kotori]

The SDLP always take the high road

I really have to admire Tony Blair's courage and fairness lately.

On a side note, I wish that Sinn Fein would accept the challenge of changing the inequities while serving on the new police force. It doesn't comply fully to the Patten recommendations, but they may be able to have a better influence to change the development while becoming a part of the start. The SDLP took the high road on that issue, I believe.

I agree, it's time for engagement (and not in the military sense). But you really have to credit Blair for making all this happen. Look at how long the cease-fire went on while Major dicked around with his old hard line. I consider the Canary Warf incident firmly and forever in his lap. It was only lucky that Labour came in when they did, or the whole thing could still be back where we were during the reign of Butcher Thatcher.

 

[Topher]

Re: The SDLP always take the high road

I consider the Canary Warf incident firmly and forever in his lap.

I consider that incident to be firmly and forever in the laps of the murderers who planted that bomb - the IRA, Sinn Féin, and Gerry "the IRA aren't terrorists" Adams.

 

[Cherry]

Yes...

and there has been a lot of water over the damn (pun intended) since February 9th, 1996

I would say the IRA gave as good as they got.

 

[Topher]

Re: Yes...

and there has been a lot of water over the damn (pun intended) since February 9th, 1996

I would say the IRA gave as good as they got.

Yeah, they really showed those two Arabs they killed!

 

[kotori]

Canary Wharf

My point was that John Major and the Tories could have acted in the way Blair did, prior to Canary Wharf, and thereby preventing it. When Blair decided to address the 'situation' rather than simply perpetuate the stalemate, things began to happen, to move toward Good Friday. This Major could have done.

At some point, someone has to jump first. The cease-fire held for eleven months (if I recall) and still Major and the Conservatives always had to ask for more and more before they would start talking.

 

[Topher]

Oh, ok, I retract my statements. Killing innocent people is, on second thought, a legitimate form of protest/persuasion.

 

[delite]

Couple of questions.
Do you really believe that any member of the british armed forces wants to go to Ireland?
when people talk of the british getting out of Ireland do they just mean the army or are they just reiterating an age old slogan of the Irish, Cause that one started way before the Ira and the Loyalist Paramilatries.
And what would be the American reaction to the sparodic but continuous bombing of it's innocent civilians?

 

[Astro]

kotori where do u live?

I live here and I would prefere to have those watchtowers and barracks to increase in number.

By putting terriosts in government and then reducing the number of troops in this country the British Government are bowing to pressure. I'm sure people who dont know the true facts will be glad, but I myself see a war coming.

 

[kotori]

Astro, thanks so much for your comments and questions. As it happens, I now live in Kentucky, USA, and I'm from Co Westmeath, so either way, I wouldn't be directly effected. I decided to post these clips from RTÉ because I thought there might be some good conversational / debate subjects there.

Looks like I was right.

It's true, the British Government is bowing to pressure. All governments bow to pressure. The ultimate pressure a government feels is at the ballot box--they either stay or go.

The "true facts" you mention are here (as again, almost always) different depending on where you stand. But your most interesting comment was the last, viz.:

"I myself see a war coming."

Will this be sectarian, just between the Irish, Loyalist and Nationalist? Will the British Army be involved? Will you be involved as a combatant? What is the way to prevent it? Is there something I can do to prevent it? Is there something you can do to prevent it? Do you want a war?

By the way, just to difuse any prejudices, I'm not RC, but CofI--a minority anywhere in Ireland.

 

[Astro]

The fighting in Ulster is not about religion, I am not Christian, and so find the differences between R.Catholic and Protestant religion minor.

The British Government are not bowint to ballot box pressure, they are bowing to the bullet and the bomb. Anytime the SF/IRA dont get what they want a 'Splinter Group' kills people.

The war will be when the weak British Government sells Northern Ireland to the South. The British Army will pull out and all hell will result. In this way it will be a cival war between Ireland, and those loyal to the Crown in Ulster.

Before I say more, what is your view on the long term as well as short term for the northern six counties?

 

[kotori]

The fighting in Ulster is not about religion, I am not Christian, and so find the differences between R.Catholic and Protestant religion minor.

I agree they should be minor, but you can't deny that's how things fall-out. I just wanted to mention my religious affiliation so distinguish it from my nationality.

The British Government are not bowint to ballot box pressure, they are bowing to the bullet and the bomb. Anytime the SF/IRA dont get what they want a 'Splinter Group' kills people.

And when it goes the other way, a Loyalist 'Splinter Group' does the violence--so that seems a draw.

The war will be when the weak British Government sells Northern Ireland to the South. The British Army will pull out and all hell will result. In this way it will be a cival war between Ireland, and those loyal to the Crown in Ulster.

If Westminster were to dissovle the Union, do you think the Loyalists would set up an independent 'monarchy' in the Six Counties? Would the Royal Family accept that? Would there be a flight of Loyalists (as there was in the States after the revolution, or indeed the Republic after the Free State) out of Ulster, and then to where? Great Britain? Some Commonwealth countries?

Before I say more, what is your view on the long term as well as short term for the northern six counties?

Short term, well, I'd like to think the Assembly in Belfast could operate the province, and that eventually (mid-term) Ulster, Scotland, Wales and England could be more like a federation of states, keeping international relations in Westminster. There could be much more cross border cooperation within Ireland on things that are mutually agreeable. Long term? The longevity of the nation-state within the E.U. is questionable.

 

[Astro]

The people in and out of the province who think religion is the most important factor are mistaken. This is over land and loyalty.

THe loyalist splinter groups dont bomb - remember Omagh?

I think Ireland would not be able to keep the northern six counties if it's people went to war. Britain invested heavily and has over 20,000 troops here. Ireland doesnt have 20,000 troops at all, never mind to keep here on a permanant basis. Furthermore those Irish troops have not had the combat experience of the British troops, nor do they have the backing of world class intelligence and recon.

The UK is being weakened by the splitting up into smaller regions. I think the assembly is handicapped but might work given time.

 

[kotori]

<snip>I think Ireland would not be able to keep the northern six counties if it's people went to war. Britain invested heavily and has over 20,000 troops here. Ireland doesnt have 20,000 troops at all, never mind to keep here on a permanant basis. Furthermore those Irish troops have not had the combat experience of the British troops, nor do they have the backing of world class intelligence and recon.

I agree--that's why I said that in real life, I don't think the Republic would want to absorb the Six Counties--not in the current state of things. I'm sure Westminster could just wish Northern Ireland away (like India / Pakistan or Cyprus or Palestine), but it's too close and there's just too much history.

The UK is being weakened by the splitting up into smaller regions.

It certainly won't be "United." But I think as there is more integration into Europe, each region will be able to express their interests as they see fit. Sometimes with the others, sometimes not.

I think the assembly is handicapped but might work given time.

For sure. And I think it's worthwhile trying to make it work. Don't you?

 

[Astro]

I agree! I think many in the mainland just dont know why there is a problem and would love to see it dissapear. However this attitude in Government is dangerous for my country.

I dont trust Europe yet, I understadn all the buisiness and economic reasons for one massive US of Europe. However Europeans have been figthing each other for hundreds of years, so it is hard to trust your once-enemies. THis applies in Ireland as well, Ireland has been united in the past, but only one one of the Kings of the Provinces beat up the otehr three to become High-King and then again united under the English Throne.

The assembly has to work for all people, I know this sounds bad, but it is biased towards Nationalists atm. As such I cannot put my trust, and so my vote, in support of a body that is killing my Police force and weakened my army.

 

[kotori]

I agree! I think many in the mainland just dont know why there is a problem and would love to see it dissapear. However this attitude in Government is dangerous for my country.

I wish we could get some opinions here from the folks on the other side of the Irish Sea.

 

[Andreina]

I wish we could get some opinions here from the folks on the other side of the Irish Sea.

ASTRO!!!! Where the heck have you been? Missed you! (((hugs)))

 

[Astro]

Sorry darling, I have been stressed over my exams and turned of the computer - to big a distraction. Then I havn't been sober much since the exam

What are your opinion Lil'Devil on the Ulster siutation?

 

[Andreina]

I honestly have to admit that I havent been really following the news lately as I have been working my (sexy) ass off for mah exams (and no, me poor bitch hasn't finished like you lucky bastard )

Regarding the situation in Ulster - hmm... I think both arguments are valid. In my opinion it was a good move to put Adams into the Westminster picture - although he doesn't have any votes. We might see how (possible) future co-operation would look like and work out. I think it is time to mature for the British Government, as well as Sinn Fein (a bit oxymoronic since it means 'Ourselves Alone', eh?)
As I see it we should wait for 6 months before make any statements, let's see how it goes, how it will work out; let's see if Adams is capable of doing what he promised.

But then... I'm neithe British nor Irish, so I have no right to judge it from a Isle/Ireland point of view, but thanx for inviting me into the discussion anyway.

 

[Astro]

It is because you are neutral that I am glad you are.

As for the Westminster affair, the reason they were not allowed in is becasue they refuse to swear loyalty to HRH Queen Elizebeth 2nd. Not because they are nationalist, the SDLP party have been Westminster for years.

 

[Andreina]

I know, same as about 1/3 of the Scottish Parliament hehehe

 

[kotori]

Well aware of the irony

<snip>Sinn Fein (a bit oxymoronic since it means 'Ourselves Alone', eh?)<snip>

But maybe telling in that it really shows how none of us is alone, and the only way to really make any progress is to "get over it" (whatever the "it" is), and work together. The hard part will be keeping the hot-heads and those that can't put it behind them in line so they whole thing don't come crashing down.

 

[Andreina]

#>

<snip>Sinn Fein (a bit oxymoronic since it means 'Ourselves Alone', eh?)<snip>

geeeez kotori, watch where you are snipping.... ya almost cut my ( o Y o ) off there

 

[Astro]

But little mister Adams wants to be in charge of the country. He isnt a hot head, and he is smart, however his agendy is for his own power, not for the good of the people.