Derivative works

[SimonDoom]

I don't see how in a world where things like fan fiction and DEEP FAKE PORN exists, we're even having this discussion.

How is it immoral to take copy-righted characters and write original, non-canon stories with them for free?

---

There are a lot of issues at work here.

1. Whether or not you think it's immoral, characters in copyrighted stories enjoy copyright protection, which means that writing a story that incorporates the characters of someone else's copyrighted story is, presumptively, copyright infringement. No, it's not OK under the law. Might it be fair use, within the meaning of the copyright law? It might be, but you should not assume that it is. The mere fact that you make no money off it does NOT make it a fair use, all by itself. The law is not at all ambiguous on that point. The fact that you are not making money doesn't give you a "get out of jail free" card.

2. There's also the issue of how to treat other Literotica authors versus how to treat famous published authors. I think it's fair and right to take a more restrictive attitude toward fellow Literotica authors. I would never attempt to write a sequel or derivative work of a fellow Literotica author without unequivocal, express permission. I think writing fanfiction stories based on works of famous published authors is more of a gray area. This appears, as best as I can tell, to be the policy adopted by Literotica, based on Laurel's statement.

3. I personally don't think that law and morality are completely coextensive on the issue of copyright infringement, but in general I think it's "morally" wrong knowingly to infringe another's copyright, or to plagiarize another's work. I think the better practice is not to do this, and to interpret permissions narrowly to avoid ethical and legal conflicts.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

The original author bearing the responsibility to self police Lit to keep their characters out of categories or themes incongruent with your vision seems problematic to me.

If they're on Lit that much, it should be easy to reach them. The OP is asking about an author last contacted 17 years ago.

Try your best to contact them. But if you can't, I don't see the difference between that and Star Wars.

If you think all fanworks are immortal, then I understand. I disagree, but I get it.

But if you think it's okay to write Star Wars fan fiction and not okay to write Test Subjects fanfiction (after all reasonable attempts to contact me fail), then I don't understand the difference.

 

[Omenainen]

But if you think it's okay to write Star Wars fan fiction and not okay to write Test Subjects fanfiction (after all reasonable attempts to contact me fail), then I don't understand the difference.

Do you understand the difference between fan fiction and finishing other’s story like the OP wants to do?

 

[Euphony]

Try your best to contact them. But if you can't, I don't see the difference between that and Star Wars.

Pond size.

I continue Star Wars it isn't a drop in the ocean for all the reach Star Wars has.

Somebody writes a continuation of my characters' love story here, it has far greater impact.

 

[SimonDoom]

But if you think it's okay to write Star Wars fan fiction and not okay to write Test Subjects fanfiction (after all reasonable attempts to contact me fail), then I don't understand the difference.

I think there's a significant difference between using a world-famous property like Star Wars and using a property by a fellow Literotica author.

Star Wars generates billions of dollars. Fanfiction stories, even if legally infringing, are like a tiny unnoticeable mite on the skin of the monster. The monster, if it wanted to, might be able to take legal action against the mite, but it probably won't, for a variety of practical (not ethical) reasons. So the mites keep doing their thing, knowing that their legal status is uncertain but that practically they'll be tolerated.

There's no reason whatsoever to apply this same logic to a Literotica author. We're not making money off this. We do it for personal reasons. I think there is an unspoken understanding among us that we will treat each other with a level of personal respect that does not exist when it comes to dealing with the Star Wars property. A kind of unspoken contract. I see that contract as entailing the requirement of getting permission before writing a derivative work of another author's work. Laurel's statement appears to support that view. And going back to what I said before, I think the burden of proof is on the person who wants to use another's work, not on the original author. Be cautious. Interpret permissions narrowly. This is the way to treat others with respect and to avoid conflict. Assume that you do NOT have permission unless you very clearly do.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I think there's a significant difference between using a world-famous property like Star Wars and using a property by a fellow Literotica author.

Star Wars generates billions of dollars. Fanfiction stories, even if legally infringing, are like a tiny unnoticeable mite on the skin of the monster. The monster, if it wanted to, might be able to take legal action against the mite, but it probably won't, for a variety of practical (not ethical) reasons. So the mites keep doing their thing, knowing that their legal status is uncertain but that practically they'll be tolerated.

There's no reason whatsoever to apply this same logic to a Literotica author. We're not making money off this. We do it for personal reasons. I think there is an unspoken understanding among us that we will treat each other with a level of personal respect that does not exist when it comes to dealing with the Star Wars property. A kind of unspoken contract. I see that contract as entailing the requirement of getting permission before writing a derivative work of another author's work. Laurel's statement appears to support that view. And going back to what I said before, I think the burden of proof is on the person who wants to use another's work, not on the original author. Be cautious. Interpret permissions narrowly. This is the way to treat others with respect and to avoid conflict. Assume that you do NOT have permission unless you very clearly do.

Okay, I've written out a ton of replies, and people keep responding so I'll try to stop this here.

1) I would never write a spinoff series or sequel without expressed permission

2) I don't think it's immoral to do so, I just think it's impolite, and I want to be polite

3) I don't think there's a huge difference between large and small properties, except the inability to contact the larger creators... and as such, I'm more worried about being polite to xXPussylicker77Xx than I am to George Lucas.

Dones that make sense?

---

It seems like people are arguing right/wrong in this debate, but I don't think it's wrong. I just think it's impolite.

That said, if an author CANNOT be contacted, then they have left the pond, and I'd worry less about offending them. If they return, then I'll delete my stories if they don't like them.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I do not get much in the way of reader interaction, but I've gotten at least two where the reader expressed an interest in being a character in one of my stories. I interpretted this, at the time, as attempts to expand conversations with me beyond the basic interaction of "I liked your story" "gee thanks." It felt lile they were trying to get me to be interested in them.

In both cases, I stopped responding. We're all assuming the OPs interaction with the original author was in good faith, but what if that guy stopped responding for the same reason I did? That attempts to "get permission" were also, simultaneously, attempts to ingratiate themselves with a creator they like/admire/obsess about.

That's not a conversation you continue, to make sure that boundaries are clear, that's a conversation you walk away from. Lack of permission is what you end up with rather than an outright no.

 

[StillStunned]

We're all assuming the OPs interaction with the original author was in good faith, but what if that guy stopped responding for the same reason I did? That attempts to "get permission" were also, simultaneously, attempts to ingratiate themselves with a creator they like/admire/obsess about.

And no-one has heard from the original author since...

 

[8letters]

I’m not familiar with FinishTheDamnStory or others who meddle with stories that are not theirs. Something might slip past Laurel, especially if it’s not stated in any way that this is a continuation of some other story (but then how would the readers know?). I find that whole idea somehow bizarre, because how would readers ever find the story? Are they adding a comment to the original saying “here’s mine come see?”

The beginning of Do Not Pass Go 04 - Traci's story:

Someone's got to fight for the kids! - my ending to LightontheSound's Do Not Pass Go

http://www.literotica.com/s/do-not-pass-go

LightontheSound started an interesting, well written, but irritating story. We have the classic heartless cheating bitch, and a bumbling, well-meaning loser husband, who lets her walk all over him in a divorce, with hardly a fight at all. He wants us to believe he's going to fight for the kids, but five months later, he's done nothing but screw a 20 year old confused barmaid, and given in to his ex-wife's demands time and time again.

The children were in the dark about the real situation, but when the mother finally explains she was cheating, (while she blames the confession on her wimp husband), the kids start fighting back. It's the only good part of the story after the first chapter.

After the eldest daughter's first act of rebellion, she's prohibited from seeing her father, but the other two make it clear they're still going to be 'the resistance'. They know their mother is nothing but a self-serving selfish cheater, and they want their revenge.

The way it's written, I don't see the father EVER getting off his ass and fighting back. He's too much of a wimp. Those kids however...

BTW - the author, at the end of chapter 2, stated there would be a third and fourth chapter. The third was submitted in May of '06. It took him two weeks to publish the second chapter, and four months to publish the third. It's been nearly nine years since then. I don't know how he expected to pull all the loose ends together in one more chapter, unless it was a dozen Lit pages long. It took me four chapters to come to a conclusion.

There are too damn many intriguing stories that are never completed, or left hanging with disgusting endings. If I find a story that's been abandoned for too long, I'll give you my idea of an ending. Fair warning though, I don't write about total wimps. May not be BTB, all nuclear and shit, but no voluntary cucks, or whiny simpering wimps.

For Information on how I choose which stories to continue, please read my profile.

FinishTheDamnStory has 59 stories published. I didn't check, but I'd guess all of them have similar beginnings.

A more recent example is a series posted in 2022. The beginning of Brady Family Tent Swap Pt. 01:

Brady Family Tent Swap

Original Story by Sethp

Revision by CB_Grl_Dani

I don't see how Laurel could overlook that these stories were derivative works of another Literotica author's story.

I prefer to write my own stories, so I’m not willing to test, but I hope if someone posts a story saying “this is a continuation of this and that story and I don’t have a permission but I just felt like I wanted to continue it” that it would get rejected.

And you believe that because?

Sheesh, I can’t believe I’m contemplating adding “for fuck’s sake, don’t go stealing my stuff” clause to my author profile, like shouldn’t that be the default? And no, if anyone would go ripping off my characters without asking for permission I wouldn’t consider it “fan fiction.” There’s a difference between being inspired by someone’s work to write something of your own, and stealing someone’s story and running off with it. If anyone struggles with the difference then they should stick to only writing original pieces.

If, after you stop being active on the site, you don't want anyone to extend or rewrite one of your stories, I suggest you add that clause to your author profile.

What I am saying is based on what Laurel has done in the past. My opinion on whether that is ethical doesn't matter. Your opinion on whether that is ethical doesn't matter. If Laurel has changed her mind on publishing derivative works of other authors and such stories will no longer be published, that's fine with me. I will not condemn any author for publishing any story that follows the rules of the site.

 

[onehitwanda]

it rubs the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I do not get much in the way of reader interaction, but I've gotten at least two where the reader expressed an interest in being a character in one of my stories. I interpretted this, at the time, as attempts to expand conversations with me beyond the basic interaction of "I liked your story" "gee thanks." It felt lile they were trying to get me to be interested in them.

In both cases, I stopped responding. We're all assuming the OPs interaction with the original author was in good faith, but what if that guy stopped responding for the same reason I did? That attempts to "get permission" were also, simultaneously, attempts to ingratiate themselves with a creator they like/admire/obsess about.

That's not a conversation you continue, to make sure that boundaries are clear, that's a conversation you walk away from. Lack of permission is what you end up with rather than an outright no.

That is an amazing point that I did not consider.

That said, only the OP knows how that interaction went.

If an author ghosted me, but continues creating content and interacting with others on the site, then they have not "left the pond" and I would definitely assume their answer was an implied "no."

 

[SimonDoom]

Okay, I've written out a ton of replies, and people keep responding so I'll try to stop this here.

1) I would never write a spinoff series or sequel without expressed permission

2) I don't think it's immoral to do so, I just think it's impolite, and I want to be polite

3) I don't think there's a huge difference between large and small properties, except the inability to contact the larger creators... and as such, I'm more worried about being polite to xXPussylicker77Xx than I am to George Lucas.

Dones that make sense?

---

It seems like people are arguing right/wrong in this debate, but I don't think it's wrong. I just think it's impolite.

That said, if an author CANNOT be contacted, then they have left the pond, and I'd worry less about offending them. If they return, then I'll delete my stories if they don't like them.

So many fun spoofy ideas come to mind in describing how one might approach George Lucas.

"Mr. Lucas: I am an author at Literotica and I would like to write an incest story about Luke and Leia where Leia sits on Luke's lap on the way to the rebel base and, you know, stuff happens. Rest assured I will give appropriate credit to you and to Disney. Is this OK?"

 

[StillStunned]

So many fun spoofy ideas come to mind in describing how one might approach George Lucas.

"Mr. Lucas: I am an author at Literotica and I would like to write an incest story about Luke and Leia where Leia sits on Luke's lap on the way to the rebel base and, you know, stuff happens. Rest assured I will give appropriate credit to you and to Disney. Is this OK?"

Those X-wing cockpits only have one seat, so you know it's on.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

So many fun spoofy ideas come to mind in describing how one might approach George Lucas.

"Mr. Lucas: I am an author at Literotica and I would like to write an incest story about Luke and Leia where Leia sits on Luke's lap on the way to the rebel base and, you know, stuff happens. Rest assured I will give appropriate credit to you and to Disney. Is this OK?"

Omg, that "sits on the lap" line made me legitimately lol.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I will respond to these quickly, since I already had them typed up.

Do you understand the difference between fan fiction and finishing other’s story like the OP wants to do?

I do. That said, I don't think it matters. No fictional story is definitively over. Not as long as humans exist to write more.

If I were to write the next Star Wars saga of Rey, then I would be "finishing the story" as a fan fiction.

How does that differ from doing it to a story on Lit? (a story that hasn't been touched in 11 years)

Pond size.

If the pond is so small, it should be easy to contact the author. If you can't, (for 11 years!) then perhaps they have "left the pond."

So write your story. If they find it later, and hate it... Then YOU should delete it, even if Laurel wouldn't (she would, obviously).

 

[Euphony]

"Mr. Lucas: I am an author at Literotica and I would like to write an incest story about Luke and Leia where Leia sits on Luke's lap on the way to the rebel base and, you know, stuff happens.

 

[AchtungNight]

There are plenty of court rulings about fanfics. The biggest one, which Lit used to link on every fanfic story here, is Hustler Magazine vs. Jerry Falwell. In the 80s the US Supreme Court universally ruled that it was permissible for Hustler to publish cartoons of Falwell as an incestuous drunk under freedom of speech policies because they had a disclaimer stating the cartoons were false and not about the real Falwell. This has yet to be overturned and is considered the highest US law on the subject last I checked. Hustler’s publisher and Falwell also counted each other as friends years after settling the case, by the grace of God.

Meanwhile in civil court cases, people sue each other for defamation (false depiction of a person or entity with malicious intent that does lasting harm) all the time. They often win. There was a case in Japan earlier this year where a video game developer successfully sued a YouTube let’s play artist for defamation of their game in his videos. Said videos were demonetized and taken down. Anyone who publishes a fanfic is taking their chances such a thing might happen to them regardless of court rulings.

In my life as a fanfic writer (I’ve been doing it since the ‘90s), I’ve asked a few creators about their opinions on fanfics at conventions. Their responses vary. Greg Weisman, the show runner for Disney’s Gargoyles in the 90s, gave the usual position. He tolerates fanfic for its aid to promoting his work and occasional good spin but he usually won’t admit to reading it because of conflicts about canon details vs what the original author wrote. Another author, PN Elrod of the Vampire Files, politely asked fans not to write fanfics of her work while admitting she could not stop them. Other celebrities laughed about it- this includes some of the actors whose parallel universe depictions have appeared in my work. Author Mercedes Lackey admits she got her start in fanfic, so how can she shame it? Author Diana Galbadon damns fanfic authors for stealing her visions. Some sites online will not publish Galbadon inspired fanfics because of her stance. They meanwhile publish fanfics inspired by intellectual property of creators who tolerate fanfic such as Lackey & Weisman. They only require a disclaimer to say your work is not canon with the original creator’s and not done for financial profit.

Fans meanwhile understand that they are walking a fine line. Some troll out there might shame your work for, say, depicting Gargoyles’ Demona as ok with incest and if Weisman hears of the story he might politely roll his eyes and say “that’s not something I would put in canon Gargoyles” while laughing about obsessed fans. Other creators might be shocked or upset- Alyson Hannigan is not an uncloseted bisexual irl and would probably not admit to having an affair with Sarah Michelle Gellar. She might laugh about a fanfic depicting that. Or she might ask the author to take it down- probably best to keep the character portrayals fair and with vanilla kink levels just in case. Maybe if Alyson puts out a film role or two where she’s into wide age gap bondage games that would be ok. I don’t know. But she would probably still say in public “that’s not something I would really do” while her loving husband chuckles at the idea.

Star Wars official creators- not sure of specific people- asked fanfic writers in the 80s not to depict things like Han and Luke finding creative ways to stay warm on Hoth- not sure if it was the slash pairing or the fact they were doing it inside a dead Tauntaun that was the issue. Today they would probably ignore such a story publicly while making a mental note to avoid such a story in canon Star Wars.

Cases like Andy Weir writing a fanfic of Ready Player One and having original author Ernest Cline call it canon are rare. Cases like Swimfan Star Erika Christensen marrying her obsessed fan Cole Maness and praising his caricatures of their intertwined faces in public interviews are also rare. They do happen, but fanfic creators should not expect it. They should not expect to get any positive attention from a creator of an idea they’ve borrowed whatsoever. What they dare to create is on their karma.

On a personal note-

I’ve featured mentions of erotic author KMB’s Harem celebrity fanfics and professional smut author Nick Scipio’s Summer Camp stories in my writings- they granted me permission when I contacted them asking. This was before Nick Scipio published for money. They were both glad to allow a mention of their work in mine. A full fanfic referencing their work and claiming canon would be a different story. I value their goodwill, so I won’t ever go that far. Besides, KMB might write a Katie Holmes incest story the next day and then I’d have to settle if that was canon in my ficverse- it’s not for the record. Bisexual anal cheating on Tom after she admitted he upset her by restricting her sexuality is the extent of Katie’s depravity in my ficverse. And I include a disclaimer acknowledging that my Katie is not the real Katie. KMB does the same. Similar things go for my God of War story- Cory Bartog would probably never have Kratos do bdsm with a goddess in official God of War content on a submissive level. My story where he does that with Freya is not canon. Same for Evan Rachel Wood vacationing at Scipio’s Pines nudist camp and somehow never meeting any of his characters whose echoes might exist in my ficverse. That’s not canon and Scipio does not publicly support my work.

Alicia Witt states she finds tabloid or fanfic stories of her in a sexual relationship with this or that lucky person with whom she has never had an actual affair “silly” and discourages the low quality ones. I did get a free VIP ticket to her Austin concert once, mind you- not that I dared to ask her why since other fans were mobbing her afterwards and I was too tired to wait and chat with her about it- this was thirteen years after I started writing such stories about her. If we had chatted, I would probably have not outed myself as her fanfic writer. I definitely would not have expected her to give my work official public or positive attention of any kind. If she or anyone else ever asks me to cease and desist from writing any more unfair fanfics about her, I would probably comply. Witness the mention in my Loving Wives story where Marilyn Manson has to pay a settlement to his bitter ex Evan Rachel Wood. Not that I’ve ever met Manson himself, but at least one fan of his has found my depiction of him unfair and thus I have now quietly pushed that artist out of my ficverse public view while politely disagreeing with the reviewer. I might do the same with other artists’ work in the future, should they or their fans request it.

Writing a sequel to another creator’s work on Lit like the OP describes is not something I would do. At the least I would not claim it canon and include a disclaimer in case that author or their fans had issues with my story. It would be up to Laurel to publish such content and I would definitely be okay with it if she refused. I would never publish any fan work that portrays any celebrity in an unfair defamatory manner. Good humor about the Feshbach family notwithstanding. And if Lit ever takes down my Passion or Counseling series, they will be well within their rights.

May my opinion be a guide to other fanfic writers who dare to publish their ideas.

 

[Marvin2017]

Some clarifications: Author is epiphany65. His last submission was in 2010. That’s a fair amount of time that’s passed, which explains the no-contact issues. Also in his biography he lists his age in the 60-70 range`. Not lookin good…
In the one contact I had with him, I sent him a copy of my chapter 4. His response was the “it is an honour” remark, but he made no mention of the submission, or if he even read it.
It’s still sitting on my hard drive, and I’m anxious to inflict it on the world . I don’t see much difference between this and comments or speculation about the characters. Also, how does Lit view submissions like this vs a submission to its Celebrities classification?
What do you all think (I’m siding with 8-Letters)?

 

[KeithD]

Some clarifications: Author is epiphany65. His last submission was in 2010. That’s a fair amount of time that’s passed, which explains the no-contact issues. Also in his biography he lists his age in the 60-70 range`. Not lookin good…
In the one contact I had with him, I sent him a copy of my chapter 4. His response was the “it is an honour” remark, but he made no mention of the submission, or if he even read it.
It’s still sitting on my hard drive, and I’m anxious to inflict it on the world . I don’t see much difference between this and comments or speculation about the characters.
What do you all think (I’m siding with 8-Letters)?

Makes no difference if he's dead. He doesn't lose proprietary ownership of his material. Just don't ride on someone else's back without their explicit permission. If they're dead that's just tough for you.

 

[SimonDoom]

There are plenty of court rulings about fanfics. The biggest one, which Lit used to link on every fanfic story here, is Hustler Magazine vs. Jerry Falwell. In the 80s the US Supreme Court universally ruled that it was permissible for Hustler to publish cartoons of Falwell as an incestuous drunk under freedom of speech policies because they had a disclaimer stating the cartoons were false and not about the real Falwell. This has yet to be overturned and is considered the highest US law on the subject last I checked. Hustler’s publisher and Falwell also counted each other as friends years after settling the case, by the grace of God.

The Falwell case isn't a fanfic case. Fanfic typically involves an author who borrows fictional characters from another author's work and writes about them. The Falwell case is about a real person. In that case the legal issue arose under the First Amendment and concerned the right of a person to parody or satirize a public official. That's a completely different issue from the one typically raised by fanfiction, which arises under copyright law and in most cases has nothing to do with the First Amendment, unless the fanfiction story can be construed as a commentary, criticism, or parody of the original work, something that most fanfiction stories would not qualify as.

 

[AchtungNight]

The Falwell case isn't a fanfic case. Fanfic typically involves an author who borrows fictional characters from another author's work and writes about them. The Falwell case is about a real person. In that case the legal issue arose under the First Amendment and concerned the right of a person to parody or satirize a public official. That's a completely different issue from the one typically raised by fanfiction, which arises under copyright law and in most cases has nothing to do with the First Amendment, unless the fanfiction story can be construed as a commentary, criticism, or parody of the original work, something that most fanfiction stories would not qualify as.

I have heard cartoons such as what Hustler featured called “Real Person Fanfiction”. The comparison is valid imo.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Asked in 2006, active until 2010

Implied no. Don't do it.

 

[8letters]

Some clarifications: Author is epiphany65. His last submission was in 2010. That’s a fair amount of time that’s passed, which explains the no-contact issues. Also in his biography he lists his age in the 60-70 range`. Not lookin good…
In the one contact I had with him, I sent him a copy of my chapter 4. His response was the “it is an honour” remark, but he made no mention of the submission, or if he even read it.
It’s still sitting on my hard drive, and I’m anxious to inflict it on the world . I don’t see much difference between this and comments or speculation about the characters.
What do you all think (I’m siding with 8-Letters)?

My advice - contact Laurel for a definitive ruling.

To contact Laurel, click on the envelope in the upper right of this page and start a conversation with her. She has responded within a day whenever I have contacted her.

 

[Omenainen]

Some clarifications: Author is epiphany65. His last submission was in 2010. That’s a fair amount of time that’s passed, which explains the no-contact issues. Also in his biography he lists his age in the 60-70 range`. Not lookin good…
In the one contact I had with him, I sent him a copy of my chapter 4. His response was the “it is an honour” remark, but he made no mention of the submission, or if he even read it.
It’s still sitting on my hard drive, and I’m anxious to inflict it on the world . I don’t see much difference between this and comments or speculation about the characters.
What do you all think (I’m siding with 8-Letters)?

Don’t do it. Write something new, something of your own.

 

[KeithD]

My advice - contact Laurel for a definitive ruling.

Laurel doesn't have the moral or legal control of this.

We're on the AH here. This isn't just about what you might be able to get away with on this Website This is about the respect writers should have for the rights of other writers.