Deporting US citizens?

[HisArpy]

I think the biggest problem with the "he's going to deport Americans next!!" narrative is that the ones he's talking about sending to El Sal are convicted criminals who have been sentenced to prison already.

There's nothing in the law which says that a convicted person has to be imprisoned inside the US. Or held in a US run/controlled prison. Or even a government prison.

So the basic premise in the story, utterly fails.

 

[HisArpy]

You say that, but the country was quite literally built by slave labour. And, after slavery was technically abolished, prison labour.
All that unpicked fruit, no Mexicans to pick it, massive tariffs on imported food, and a population unwilling to do the labour.

Imprisonment for a crime and slavery aren't the same thing. Trying to use slavery to justify calls for releasing inmates isn't going to work for those who understand that the whole thing is just another version of "whatever Trump wants/does, we're against it even if it's a good thing."

 

[Bn2f]

I think the biggest problem with the "he's going to deport Americans next!!" narrative is that the ones he's talking about sending to El Sal are convicted criminals who have been sentenced to prison already.

There's nothing in the law which says that a convicted person has to be imprisoned inside the US. Or held in a US run/controlled prison. Or even a government prison.

So the basic premise in the story, utterly fails.

It’s called rendition. Rendition. That’s the word you’re looking for.
And you’re lying about the convections so adding kidnapping before rendition would be more accurate.

 

[Hel_Books]

Absolutely fascinating! President Trump basically admits that the USA can't manufacture anything from cars to toys to consumer electronics at competitive cost and now is insisting that the country has to send convicted criminals (not to mention some people NOT convicted of crimes) to prisons in foreign countries because the USA can't handle that job either.

 

[Bn2f]

Little by little, eventually Adolf Trump will have his concentration camps operating…

If I was traveling abroad, I’d leave my phone at home. Don’t expose yourself to random attack by Trump’s goons.

Hooohooo, buddy, I’m telling ya!
That Ken Burns documentary on the fall of American democracy is gonna be must see tv for those favored oligarchs as the rest of us are whisked off to gulags.

 

[Hel_Books]

I think the biggest problem with the "he's going to deport Americans next!!" narrative is that the ones he's talking about sending to El Sal are convicted criminals who have been sentenced to prison already.

There's nothing in the law which says that a convicted person has to be imprisoned inside the US. Or held in a US run/controlled prison. Or even a government prison.

So the basic premise in the story, utterly fails.

I'd be fascinated to know what the law really is in this case. Since someone (possibly convicted of a crime, possibly not, under President Trump) sent to a prison outside the USA is no longer in the custody of the USA government, the government cannot ensure there is no "cruel or unusual" treatment, wouldn't that, for example, violate the US Constitution?

 

[Bn2f]

Imprisonment for a crime and slavery aren't the same thing.

Ooooooh. I’ve always wanted to play this game with you!!!

I’ll take your personal and professional opinion, but do tell - Was slavery a bad thing?

 

[Bn2f]

I'd be fascinated to know what the law really is in this case. Since someone (possibly convicted of a crime, possibly not, under President Trump) sent to a prison outside the USA is no longer in the custody of the USA government, the government cannot ensure there is no "cruel or unusual" treatment, wouldn't that, for example, violate the US Constitution?

I’m no judicial scholar and lord knows what is ever up or down with this version of our crooked SC but everyone standing on land that’s the US of A is entitled to due process. To repeat what more learned people are saying - we’re in a constitutional crisis.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
I'd be fascinated to know what the law really is in this case. Since someone (possibly convicted of a crime, possibly not, under President Trump) sent to a prison outside the USA is no longer in the custody of the USA government, the government cannot ensure there is no "cruel or unusual" treatment, wouldn't that, for example, violate the US Constitution?

I’m no judicial scholar and lord knows what is ever up or down with this version of our crooked SC but everyone standing on land that’s the US of A is entitled to due process. To repeat what more learned people are saying - we’re in a constitutional crisis.

I'm still wondering what the law is. For example, imprisoning people so far away that family can't visit is cruel. Imprisoning them somewhere they won't have access to legal counsel is denying them due process. Sending someone outside their native country for the rest of their life is effectively stripping them of their citizenship: is that a punishment permitted under law?

Furthermore, when you consider the case of someone imprisoned in El Salvador, but who has committed no crime in that country, by what right does El Salvador hold them?

 

[HisArpy]

I'd be fascinated to know what the law really is in this case. Since someone (possibly convicted of a crime, possibly not, under President Trump) sent to a prison outside the USA is no longer in the custody of the USA government, the government cannot ensure there is no "cruel or unusual" treatment, wouldn't that, for example, violate the US Constitution?

It would depend on the place they're sent.

For instance, GITMO would still be under the control of the US government.

In this particular case, El Sal is a signatory to the International Convention Against Torture. They signed the conventions in 1987 so any claims that they're "torturing prisoners" in the CECOT don't hold water.

Basically, the whole talking point is BS hyperbole because most people refuse to do a .3 millisecond search on da Googie to find out what's really going on. Much easier to get outraged over a 15 second fake news blurb on a biased news media feed and go on to perpetuate it as if its fact.

 

[HisArpy]

Ooooooh. I’ve always wanted to play this game with you!!!

I’ll take your personal and professional opinion, but do tell - Was slavery a bad thing?

Imprisonment for a crime and slavery aren't the same thing.

No points for repeating it as if they are.

 

[Ciceri]

We need immigration overhaul. Should we deport undocumented people who commit crimes in the USA? With due process? Yes. That means verifying their identity and returning them to their country (and not necessarily to prison). This is different. Trump is trying to normalize the removal of people - including American born citizens like me who are critical of his regime. This is not good

 

[HisArpy]

It’s called rendition. Rendition. That’s the word you’re looking for.
And you’re lying about the convections so adding kidnapping before rendition would be more accurate.

And this is what you want El Sal to do with Garcia.

Yet it's a bad thing if Trump does it?

Consistency, thy sauce is very weak.

 

[HisArpy]

We need immigration overhaul. Should we deport undocumented people who commit crimes in the USA? With due process? Yes. That means verifying their identity and returning them to their country (and not necessarily to prison). This is different. Trump is trying to normalize the removal of people - including American born citizens like me who are critical of his regime. This is not good

This isn't what's going on at all. However, I do agree that we need immigration overhaul.

How about mandating that someone who wants to come to the US begin their journey at their local US embassy or Consulate by applying for either a green card or asylum and waiting until all the paperwork is completed and approved before beating feet for the US border? Port of entry requests would operated the same way, apply and wait for the paperwork to be processed and approved. No crossing the border without authorization, no living/working in the US without the green card or asylum grant.

Simple really.

 

[Bn2f]

I'm still wondering what the law is. For example, imprisoning people so far away that family can't visit is cruel. Imprisoning them somewhere they won't have access to legal counsel is denying them due process. Sending someone outside their native country for the rest of their life is effectively stripping them of their citizenship: is that a punishment permitted under law?

Furthermore, when you consider the case of someone imprisoned in El Salvador, but who has committed no crime in that country, by what right does El Salvador hold them?

I’m saying that if we had a functioning DOJ and state department it would never come to this. Part of what is flummoxing to people opposing this regime is that trump is beyond pushing the boundaries. Impeachment would have been started had any other president disobeyed a judge requiring those planes be turned around.

 

[Bn2f]

Imprisonment for a crime and slavery aren't the same thing.

No points for repeating it as if they are.

Fucker. I did not ask you if they were the same. Focus. Pay attention. Not my fault you’re inserted insult.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
I'd be fascinated to know what the law really is in this case. Since someone (possibly convicted of a crime, possibly not, under President Trump) sent to a prison outside the USA is no longer in the custody of the USA government, the government cannot ensure there is no "cruel or unusual" treatment, wouldn't that, for example, violate the US Constitution?

It would depend on the place they're sent.

For instance, GITMO would still be under the control of the US government.

In this particular case, El Sal is a signatory to the International Convention Against Torture. They signed the conventions in 1987 so any claims that they're "torturing prisoners" in the CECOT don't hold water.

Basically, the whole talking point is BS hyperbole because most people refuse to do a .3 millisecond search on da Googie to find out what's really going on. Much easier to get outraged over a 15 second fake news blurb on a biased news media feed and go on to perpetuate it as if its fact.

Well, gosh, I guess if a foreign country assures the USA nobody will be mistreated in their prisons, even signs a treaty saying they won't, it can't happen can it?

Remember, even in "civilized" countries people are sometimes mistreated in prisons (the millions paid out in lawsuits in the USA over the years attest to that) and if people are imprisoned some place NOT under the jurisdiction of the USA (Guantanamo Bay is at least nominally under the control of the USA, at least until they have to sell it back to Cuba to pay the bills after Trump bankrupts the USA) how can the USA ensure there will be no mistreatment, or provide a remedy if there is?

Besides, suppose a prisoner in that El Salvador prison makes the claim, "I've committed no crime in El Salvador. It is illegal for El Salvador to hold me in prison unless I've been convicted of a crime in El Salvador." El Salvador would have to release him, wouldn't they?

 

[Sean Renaud]

Prison labor may be a net loss after prison expenses. In government and private prisons, the wardens and corporations have decades of practice in diverting funds and overbilling. Prisoners may also be too weak or sick to work with prison food. Prisons taking jobs from law abiding citizens may draw some attention. DOGE may eventually find ways to trim the costs per prisoner, but I expect most of the cost cuts will be in reducing prison population, partly with more executions of murderers, releasing huge numbers of people arrested on BS charges, and mostly with economic recovery, when people are employed and paid enough to avoid crimes of desperation. We also have the foster care to prison pipeline which has been ignored for a while, but we can't afford to let that continue.

Alabama seems to disagree with you Its slavery in all but name which may not matter. AMENDMENT XIII Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

We know hard labor is allowed chain gangs and the such.

Unsustainably. Cotton is a cash crop that destroys soil fertility. Plantation slavery needed constant expansion into new states for new soil. Without abolitionists it would have met a wall of no new soil left to exploit. Now with diminished resources and a falling birthrate, we can't use imperial growth economics. Doing what we can with what we have is the challenge of the next few decades.

We don't need plantation slavery though these days. There are lots of other jobs that need doing as I've demonstrated above that is just the top level. With private prisons making up 8% of the national prison population those guys benefit just from operating at capacity. That's before they rent your ass out in 28 states. The falling birthrate isn't a huge problem. It would be one thing if the EITHER side was screaming that we're having a hard time getting people to immigrate to the United States. We are not. It would also be true if we didn't technology wasn't making it possible to accomplish more work with fewer people and even allowing more people to work from home. I know Conservatives don't give a fuck about results for some reason but there it is. If you CAN do your job from home they should need to make a case for why you must be in the office at any given time.

Shameless plug for AI.

Imprisonment for a crime and slavery aren't the same thing. Trying to use slavery to justify calls for releasing inmates isn't going to work for those who understand that the whole thing is just another version of "whatever Trump wants/does, we're against it even if it's a good thing."

See above. In the US that is a fine line and one we can count on Republicans to push. ITs just not the priority right now. The priority is to get children into the work force. Keeping kids out of school where they get educated is a dangerous, dangerous thing far worse than any risk of price hikes on cars.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I think the biggest problem with the "he's going to deport Americans next!!" narrative is that the ones he's talking about sending to El Sal are convicted criminals who have been sentenced to prison already.

There's nothing in the law which says that a convicted person has to be imprisoned inside the US. Or held in a US run/controlled prison. Or even a government prison.

So the basic premise in the story, utterly fails.

I would pay a significant amount of money to see you argue that goofy premise in a court of law.

You'd be facing sanctions from your bar association within a week.

 

[HisArpy]

Fucker. I did not ask you if they were the same. Focus. Pay attention. Not my fault you’re inserted insult.

Yet that's not what you did.

Please pay attention in class from now on.

 

[HisArpy]

Well, gosh, I guess if a foreign country assures the USA nobody will be mistreated in their prisons, even signs a treaty saying they won't, it can't happen can it?

Remember, even in "civilized" countries people are sometimes mistreated in prisons (the millions paid out in lawsuits in the USA over the years attest to that) and if people are imprisoned some place NOT under the jurisdiction of the USA (Guantanamo Bay is at least nominally under the control of the USA, at least until they have to sell it back to Cuba to pay the bills after Trump bankrupts the USA) how can the USA ensure there will be no mistreatment, or provide a remedy if there is?

Besides, suppose a prisoner in that El Salvador prison makes the claim, "I've committed no crime in El Salvador. It is illegal for El Salvador to hold me in prison unless I've been convicted of a crime in El Salvador." El Salvador would have to release him, wouldn't they?

Oh please.

Hypothetical fearmongering to make a political point is so yesterday.

 

[HisArpy]

Alabama seems to disagree with you Its slavery in all but name which may not matter. AMENDMENT XIII Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

We know hard labor is allowed chain gangs and the such.



We don't need plantation slavery though these days. There are lots of other jobs that need doing as I've demonstrated above that is just the top level. With private prisons making up 8% of the national prison population those guys benefit just from operating at capacity. That's before they rent your ass out in 28 states. The falling birthrate isn't a huge problem. It would be one thing if the EITHER side was screaming that we're having a hard time getting people to immigrate to the United States. We are not. It would also be true if we didn't technology wasn't making it possible to accomplish more work with fewer people and even allowing more people to work from home. I know Conservatives don't give a fuck about results for some reason but there it is. If you CAN do your job from home they should need to make a case for why you must be in the office at any given time.

Shameless plug for AI.



See above. In the US that is a fine line and one we can count on Republicans to push. ITs just not the priority right now. The priority is to get children into the work force. Keeping kids out of school where they get educated is a dangerous, dangerous thing far worse than any risk of price hikes on cars.

Alabama is a State in the US and subject to Federal law. It has no control over the Federal Government actions and State laws cannot bind the Federal Government.

See: Marbury v. Madison.

 

[Saint_Ann]

You say that, but the country was quite literally built by slave labour. And, after slavery was technically abolished, prison labour.
All that unpicked fruit, no Mexicans to pick it, massive tariffs on imported food, and a population unwilling to do the labour.

Hey, it worked for Austrailia.

 

[Bn2f]

Yet that's not what you did.

Please pay attention in class from now on.

Yeah. I see where this is already going with you endlessly pullin on your lil weenie because answerin if slavery was bad is too hard for bitch MAGATs to answer.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
Well, gosh, I guess if a foreign country assures the USA nobody will be mistreated in their prisons, even signs a treaty saying they won't, it can't happen can it?

Remember, even in "civilized" countries people are sometimes mistreated in prisons (the millions paid out in lawsuits in the USA over the years attest to that) and if people are imprisoned some place NOT under the jurisdiction of the USA (Guantanamo Bay is at least nominally under the control of the USA, at least until they have to sell it back to Cuba to pay the bills after Trump bankrupts the USA) how can the USA ensure there will be no mistreatment, or provide a remedy if there is?

Besides, suppose a prisoner in that El Salvador prison makes the claim, "I've committed no crime in El Salvador. It is illegal for El Salvador to hold me in prison unless I've been convicted of a crime in El Salvador." El Salvador would have to release him, wouldn't they?

Oh please.

Hypothetical fearmongering to make a political point is so yesterday.

What's "hypothetical" about your Bill of Rights prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment? Or do you seriously believe that other nations can run prisons more humanely than the USA?