Depantsing

[intim8]

Sorry, not that kind of depantsing. Not that one either, except...

I always will be a "discovery writer", or pantser. But I'm not a partisan idiot over it despite the raging online arguments. For something novel-length, I doubt it is possible to completely pants it from start to finish. But...

I'm taking the "discovery" part to heart. I have about 100K words pantsed for Aces2. Completely pantsed with no real thought about how it all ties together. But that doesn't mean I have 100K words of a novel. I have a heap of stuff, some of it quite good, but just stuff, and mostly just a heap.

Think of it as very detailed brainstorming. Some people (I'm looking at you, Jenna Moreci), scoff condescendingly at it as "winging it" or "pulling it out of your ass", but it isn't. Or it is, but for a long work, it is only part of the process.

Through it, I discovered the outline of what I think will be a decent story. (Yes, I'm doing an outline too, Jenna). It does tie together afterall, just not quite fully enough. I broke all those long pantsed files into files for individual scenes. 6 or 7 dozen of them, all named with a few words of what the scene does. Then I lined the names up, sorted them, and found that they were all in fact aiming at an ending. And they'd brought in several of the characters needed for a good ending (including a cadre of bad guys).

I figured out what ending they were aiming at by coming up with an idea that would bring the roughly defined conflict to a head in a dramatic way, figured out what had to happen to make that ending work, etc, working my way up from the bottom of a page on a legal pad. I found out that quite a few of the necessary developments were already in that heap of stuff.

I'm not giving up pantsing, just the opposite, really. I'm finding out that it really works for me, but needs a bit of help. And I'm not adopting plotting as my new process. I'm using each technique where it is most needed.

Here's the a picture of the result. It's probably all I'll need going forward . Almost all of the details implied here are already in those scene files. Now I get to write again.



"The second draft is where you make it look like you knew what you were doing when you wrote the first draft" --Neil Gaiman.

 

[lovecraft68]

For something novel-length, I doubt it is possible to completely pants it from start to finish. But...

Hold my beer, I've done three novels 87k, 120k, and 1 at 156k all with no outline because I'm...just kind of a weird anomaly and so afraid of any kind of structure, I think use organization as a threat of what will happen if I can't keep freestyling.

I admit on novel four of a projected five novel series I have, for the first time, run into a "Uh-oh, I shouldn't have done that in book three" so...now I'm stuck for the time being

 

[lustychimera]

I'd highly suggest Scapple if that's your outlining process. Looks like it has a 30 day trial. It's an offshoot of Scrivener (which I'd also recommend highly).

Man, I've tried outlining and spent hours and hours doing it, but then, as soon as I write that first chapter, it all goes to hell. Something about getting the macro ideas down frees up some of my very limited brain RAM for the details. And it always derails in the details, those little transitions from one paragraph to the next. Or rather, the discovery is in the details, following those little side tangents and trying to loosely aim them at a waypoint I want to hit.

"The second draft is where you make it look like you knew what you were doing when you wrote the first draft" --Neil Gaiman.

Agree wholeheartedly! If I want to write something better than a polished first draft, I basically just plan on writing it twice.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Man, I've tried outlining and spent hours and hours doing it, but then, as soon as I write that first chapter, it all goes to hell. Something about getting the macro ideas down frees up some of my very limited brain RAM for the details. And it always derails in the details, those little transitions from one paragraph to the next. Or rather, the discovery is in the details, following those little side tangents and trying to loosely aim them at a waypoint I want to hit.

Speaking as a plotter, that stuff totally happens. You plot out a skeleton, then you flesh in one of the scenes, and the scene ends up going differently than you planned, or more often some little detail that hits you changes not only the scene, but the rest of the entire outline. When that happens, you just go and edit the outline, although sometimes it sends you back to brainstorming for a bit.

 

[Duleigh]

I have 84 stories published here and let me count up the stores that I used an anal retentive outline to fashion.... .... ..... None.

I don't use the term "pantsing" or "Pulling it out of my ass" I let the story write itself. Quite often I know exactly what the ending will be so I pick a starting point and go. The octalogy Enchantress was my favorite work, Eight complete stories that told one tale of a couple living on Terry Pratchett's discworld, over 400,000 words and it landed beautifully.

 

[mildlyaroused]

There is nothing like pen and paper to make sense of strange and twisting fictional worlds... I feel so much more free when I can draw whatever lines I want with a pen, crossing things out and drawing arrows and circles and all of it - as opposed to doing the same sort of process in a document, spreadsheet or structure.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I don't use the term "pantsing" or "Pulling it out of my ass" I let the story write itself. Quite often I know exactly what the ending will be so I pick a starting point and go.

If you know the ending, then that's planning. And even if you don't write it down in some way, planning is outlining.

And of course you couldn't pass up the hyperlinked ad. I guess I need to check it out. The 8 part epic that wrote itself must be fucking orgasmic on every line. You're so awesome!

 

[KeithD]

Different strokes for different folks. I just have notes for my short stories. I have a rough outline (what happens in what chapter?) for novella- and novel-length works. I always end up with more chapters and more story than covered in the outline, though. But then my first full draft isn't the complete thing either. I add in review, not trim.

 

[Smuttyandfun]

I never know where I'm going, I just write, and hope for the best.

 

[CockSparrow]

From time to time, various Lit authors make their case for planning their stories in advance. Sometimes for planning their stories to the nth degree. Others celebrate the joy of ‘pantsing it’.

I think that I have always been a pantser.

I recall beginning the first short story that I ever sold. I didn’t set out to begin a story. I was simply ‘test driving’ a second hand typewriter to see if I might buy it. I typed a couple of sentences about a chap named Sebastian Jay getting off a bus and walking down a hill in an unnamed city.

I didn’t buy the typewriter. But I removed the sheet of quarto paper with the two random sentences, and slipped it into my pocket. And then, when I got home, I read the two sentences and added another. And another. And, a few days later, I had a short story entitled ‘Good Morning, Mr Jay’.

I sent the story off to a now long-deceased weekly magazine that published entertaining stories. In due course, the editor of the magazine sent me her thanks and a cheque and an invitation to submit other stories. It seemed that, for me anyway, the way to write stories was to begin at the beginning and then keep going until I got to somewhere that I could stop. And, for most of the past 60-something years that is how I have paid the grocer, the butcher, and the wine merchant.

And then, a couple of years ago, I started having a few health problems. The health problems quickly got worse and, for the past year, I have spent more time in hospital than I have spent at home. None of it has been much fun. However, one of the most distressing things has been losing the ability to write stories. To ‘pants it’. I did try my hand at the pre-planning approach. But that didn’t work. So I accepted my fate and stopped writing.

Then, about three weeks ago, I was sitting at my desk, staring at a blank screen, when a sentence came into my mind. I typed it. About 15 minutes later, I added a second sentence. The funny thing was: when I started typing the second sentence, I had no idea which words would be required or how the sentence would end.

After about three days of this random scribbling, I had a short story. I sent the story to some of my more literate friends. Without exception, they loved it. I think I’m going to put it down to the drugs.

 

[lustychimera]

I sent the story off to a now long-deceased weekly magazine that published entertaining stories. In due course, the editor of the magazine sent me her thanks and a cheque and an invitation to submit other stories.

That's awesome! You just gotta get your foot in that publishing door once. So hard to do. Kudos!

I'm really sorry to hear about your health problems. I do hope you can continue to find catharsis in writing. Keep up the drugs?

 

[orangecurious]

Sometimes there's a plan, sometimes not.

One of mine started from a song line that wouldn't leave my head. Then I wrote a character saying it and wondered why the person would say it... so the end was thought of. Twenty three pages later the two met up, nothing between was planned.

I have a draft folder with notes for future stories or events for an ongoing series, most haven't happened as the action just tends to happen.

Both my long stories (21 & 23 pages) started as an idea and just went, the endings were, almost, planned, but no real outline, a character might say something, a line popping into my head and, suddenly, there's a whole other adventure.

I know people who go out and have a vision of what photos they want to take, i just aim the camera at stuff and press the shutter. Different strokes..

 

[TheRedChamber]

From time to time, various Lit authors make their case for planning their stories in advance. Sometimes for planning their stories to the nth degree. Others celebrate the joy of ‘pantsing it’.

What typically happens is someone posts some kind of topic or question about how other people approach some particular aspect of plotting.

Then immediately a dozen pantsers come out of the woodword to announce that they never ever plot anything, they'd never be able to write anything if they did plot and, in extreme cases, if anyone else tries to plot anything it will inevitably kill the essence/soul/life of the story stone dead.

In other words, some pantsers seem to really resent the existence of plotters.

Plotters just look at pantsers and go, I have no idea what this magic is.

Once the plotter/pantser war gets started in earnest, some of them will go "A-ha, you sharpened your pencil before you sat down. That means you must have planned to write. Check-mate"

Everyone has a different process. Sometimes that process evolves as people write. I know mine has.

 

[TheLobster]

Is there really a clear divide between the two camps anyway? To me, this seems like a continuous spectrum.

Even if you are writing by the seat of your pants, you still have some idea about the characters and the setting. If the story is set in the realistic here and now, for example, you probably won't start adding dragons and Nazgul when you are 30k words deep.
And if you like to sketch your plot in detail, you still won't foresee every circumstance that arises when you actually sit down to write it. After all, the only plan that has all the detail is the finished story.

So it's a bit like the Blue Team and the Green Team arguing where exactly does the turquoise color end.

 

[ElectricBlue]

In other words, some pantsers seem to really resent the existence of plotters.

Plotters just look at pantsers and go, I have no idea what this magic is.

Once the plotter/pantser war gets started in earnest, some of them will go "A-ha, you sharpened your pencil before you sat down. That means you must have planned to write. Check-mate"

Everyone has a different process. Sometimes that process evolves as people write. I know mine has.

I don't think there's any resentment whatsoever, from pantsers. All we're doing is pointing that not all writers plot, plan, outline, whatever - but I do think there's a default assumption from novice writers that that's what writers do, because most writers do it that way, at least here in the AH. I'd say its probably an 80/20 or 70/30 ratio, plotters to pantsers.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Is there really a clear divide between the two camps anyway? To me, this seems like a continuous spectrum.

Even if you are writing by the seat of your pants, you still have some idea about the characters and the setting.

I can say that at least two of my favourite, most rounded characters turned up in the space of a single paragraph, and stayed for the duration. I have no idea where they came from.

 

[intim8]

In other words, some pantsers seem to really resent the existence of plotters.

Not the existence of plotters, it's the fact that most people who give writing advice continue to insist on plotting and planning as the only legitimate way. And how some "influencers" outright demean pantsing as utterly incapable of producing quality work. Part of that resentment comes from the fact that many pantsers tried for years (or decades) to do plotting and utterly failed at it. But we kept trying because we were told, not that it is the better way, but that there was no other way.

If I want to get conspiratorial, I'd point out that that attitude sells more software. But I'm not, not much. The attitude arises from a lot of factors that go way back to how writers and writing were mythologized back in the day, and from a general human tendency to mistrust processes that are not strictly guided. "Emergence" is a concept that a lot of people can not and will never wrap their heads around.

I don't demean plotters and plotting at all, and I'd never tell one who is successful with it to change. The closest I would come is to suggest that everyone should try pantsing once, just to find out what could happen. Basically all pantsers have tried plotting at some point, and a lot of us, for a long time with no success at all.

 

[intim8]

If you know the ending, then that's planning. And even if you don't write it down in some way, planning is outlining.

True, As @TheLobster mentioned, it is a spectrum.

I never know the ending when I start. I rarely even know what the central conflict is. Some people do. I think pantsing can start from any seed, whether it is a character, a place, a conflict, whatever.

But there is a difference. If you start with the ending, you are pushing on string if you try to pants it. Think of a tree of possibilities. You start from one point, the trunk, and it can go off on literally any branch. But if you start with the ending, it's like picking which leaf the tree has to grow toward. You've already constrained every aspect of the story.

Even if you are writing by the seat of your pants, you still have some idea about the characters and the setting.

Most of the time, I start with one or two completely cardbard characters and a vague situation. Sure, I have some idea of the genre-level setting - college, or in space, or in a busy city or a rural field - but often not an actual concrete setting. That all emerges from discovery.

 

[intim8]

The more I thought about this after posting it, the more I like the term "depantsing" for the process of extracting an outline from the pantsed text as I described in the OP. I hadn't meant it that way initially, but I like it.

 

[intim8]

I'd highly suggest Scapple if that's your outlining process.

I'm very skeptical of any software out there for writing. I've tried several over the years. For one, I will never again use anything that does not save the content as plain text ASCII only files. Been burned before by being locked into something that is the only way to read my work. Second, I will not use anything that stores content on the cloud, so web apps are out.

And then there's the fact that they all have a process or maybe a selection of processes they steer you toward. The worst experience I've had was with Scrivener.

On top of all that, I use Linux, so the selection of desktop apps is limited.

 

[ElectricBlue]

But there is a difference. If you start with the ending, you are pushing on string if you try to pants it. Think of a tree of possibilities. You start from one point, the trunk, and it can go off on literally any branch. But if you start with the ending, it's like picking which leaf the tree has to grow toward. You've already constrained every aspect of the story.

When I started writing my take on the Arthurian myth, I knew one thing, and only one thing: I had to get a dead king with a sword down by a lake, so his body could get collected by a woman in a boat. But I had no idea how I was going to get him there. So I did what you'd always do in such a situation, I took the magician Maerlyn to the other side of the planet to witness an eruption of Krakatoa. The king himself wasn't born until the third chapter.

The only tool I used was a spreadsheet to keep track of the age of the characters - except for Maerlyn, because he was already ancient, and knew Pliny (who witnessed the Vesuvius eruption before CE).

 

[samhasstories]

I'm pure pants on first draft, and I've written some longer works that are as you describe - just a heap of stuff. Then when things start to crystallize a bit in my mind and something like an outline forms, I might start a rewrite/revision phase. The Neil Gaiman quote applies pretty well here - in my second draft I have a plan.

That process requires much more outright rewriting than an outline from the beginning probably would, but for me it's the only way for a story to take shape. Outlining isn't fun (for me), and I do my best writing when I'm having fun. I love the feeling of stumbling on a solution to a problem I didn't even know was there.

 

[intim8]

Then when things start to crystallize a bit in my mind and something like an outline forms, I might start a rewrite/revision phase

I call the initial pantsing the "zeroth draft". Extract an outline from that, no more formal than the image in the OP. Reassemble that heap, filling in the interstitial stuff, adding scenes where needed, and you 've got a first draft.

For short stuff, I've published 0th drafts with little more than line editing. In fact, all my stories here so far, including the 6 chapters of Aces were more or less that. I think Last Summer went from idea to published in a day or so.

 

[StillStunned]

I've been meaning to try outlining, but I've never got round to it. My process is more like this:

I have an idea for a scene. A few lines of description or dialogue. The seed of a story idea.

I write a bit. Perhaps a paragraph or two, perhaps a few thousand words.

I think about what I have and where I want it to go. This is the point where the story forms, and it can take a minute or it can take weeks. I shape what I have forwards and backwards to create a cohesive story and make sure that everything is consistent. The advantage is that I can go back and foreshadow things that come later, while already having the basics to continue.

Depending on the story, I might repeat this process once or twice more. In the end I think that it gives a strong story with plenty of internal cohesion.

But sometimes something spontaneous happens. In my recent story "Pas de Trois", I suddenly decided to add a scene at the end where "she" dances by herself, which I think ties the whole story together.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I don't think there's any resentment whatsoever, from pantsers. All we're doing is pointing that not all writers plot, plan, outline, whatever - but I do think there's a default assumption from novice writers that that's what writers do, because most writers do it that way, at least here in the AH. I'd say its probably an 80/20 or 70/30 ratio, plotters to pantsers.

I'm not sure why you think that. Whenever I see one of these threads always there seem to be way more people announcing that they are natural pantsers.

It's like someone on a cooking thread asks "Do you put fresh pineapple or tinned pineapple on your home-made pizza?" and immediately there are ten responses from people saying "Oh, pineapple on pizza is an abomination in the eyes of God" That's as maybe, but maybe that's not terribly helpful for the discussion.

@intim8 has one notebook page with a few scruffy arrows based on 100k he's already written and all the pantsers are like 'Oh, my God, we're losing him....'