Democrats Want to Draft Your Sons and Daughters!

[JamesSD]

National service is too much a basic plank in the left wing agenda to just pass over and deny and should there be a downturn in the economy, which is a certainty if the Democrats increase taxes and further regulate industry, then the time will also be right to impose a draft and mandatory service as a solution to unemployment by the unskilled and uneducated masses.

I think I've asked this before, but...

What color is the sky on your planet?

On ours it is blue.

Come back to the real world soon. It misses you.

 

[shereads]

Amicus is wrong. We just want to draft the Bush twins and Rumsfeld's six grandchildren. We'll give the Cheney heirs a pass in case his poor aim is genetic, but only for the Iraq war and any spin-offs that begin before 2010.

 

[Dumpling]

So whats the matter with you Guys ~if you constantly want War at one place or other- so someone has to go to massacre all those Foreigners!

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Perhaps you'd prefer the term "Community Service?"

Personally, I think "community service is a bit parochial and limited but it's a start at getting people back to thinking of the "Common Weal" instead of trying to disprove the adage that "No man is an island."

Public service, community service - a pig by any other name is still a pig.

To be clear, I'm talking about any kind of "service" that is the product of implicit or explicit coercion, from a draft, to "volunteering" as a high school graduation or college admissions requirement, and even some less obvious forms. If a young person wants to do some volunteer work for sincere personal reasons that is fine and dandy, but the instant there is any whiff of coercion or even of explicitly calculated advantage-seeking* in it, the act is irrevoccably poisoned.


*If a kid wants to do it for it's own sake but is aware that this won't look bad on his or her "permanent record," that is OK. If he or she is mainly doing for that record, it's poisoned for purposes of what you are talking about.

 

[amicus]

Thanks again Tom and well said...a pleasure to have another fungus amungus...chuckles...

amicus...

 

[amicus]

Roxanne Appleby
Masterpiece




ami

 

[Pure]

re post

I asked,
ami, do you favor there being a draft in a war vital to the nation's defense (e.g. during WWII) -where there are not enough volunteers?

---
seems like a simple question, big guy.


----
wow ,is this a nasty l'il thread?


ami, don't you know that the kolkhoz system the Dems plan to set up will render the draft question irrelevant.?

 

[TE999]

I got your back ami, now start movin' towards the door...

Hear, hear, Roxy. Couldn'a said it better myself.

We don't want war, Dumplin', but a boot on the neck isn't my idea of high fashion.

Can anyone guess why 'The Art of War' by Sun-Tsu is still in print, and required reading in most military academies. Thaat's right, cause war is inevetable and those who are prepared, win.

Like it or not, a lot of folks aren't afraid to fight and take what's yours. And five will get you ten, there's another Hitler being born somewhere right now.

Stay low and keep your powder dry.

Fungus out.

Peace.

Tom (TE999)

 

[Weird Harold]

To be clear, I'm talking about any kind of "service" that is the product of implicit or explicit coercion, from a draft, to "volunteering" as a high school graduation or college admissions requirement, and even some less obvious forms. If a young person wants to do some volunteer work for sincere personal reasons that is fine and dandy, but the instant there is any whiff of coercion or even of explicitly calculated advantage-seeking* in it, the act is irrevoccably poisoned.

So you're opposed to returning to the "good old days" where nothing but peer pressure mandated public/community service? after all, Peer Pressure is the ultimate coercive mechanism.

To clarify, I think "Universal Public Service" is would be good idea to break the cycle of "what's in it for me." I do NOT think "mandatory" "Coerced" "Forced" or any other variation of "required" should be inferred -- except for the peer-pressure of public service being expected of every person in the country.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

So you're opposed to returning to the "good old days" where nothing but peer pressure mandated public/community service? after all, Peer Pressure is the ultimate coercive mechanism.

To clarify, I think "Universal Public Service" is would be good idea to break the cycle of "what's in it for me." I do NOT think "mandatory" "Coerced" "Forced" or any other variation of "required" should be inferred -- except for the peer-pressure of public service being expected of every person in the country.

Ah, here is the core of your error: "Peer pressure is coercion."

Question 1: What is the penalty for not yielding to peer pressure?

Question 2: What is the penalty for not signing up for the draft?

Notice any difference between the answers to those questions? That difference is the true definition of coercion.

I have no problem with peer pressure and purely social motivations, precisely because they are not "coercive," but are voluntary. Volunteering because "everyone else is doing it" is still volunteering, and the act is not poisoned, and still renders all the character lessons you hope for.

 

[Weird Harold]

Question 1: What is the penalty for not yielding to peer pressure?

Could be almost anything from your friends won't talk to you to you can't get a job.

Question 2: What is the penalty for not signing up for the draft?

In practical terms, a $250(?) misdemeaner ticket and the governement won't hire you. The law does provide for stiffer penalties but I haven't seen them applied since the last Draft appropriation was allowed to expire in the Seventies. I might have the amount of the fine wrong, but it's roughly equal to a parking ticket.

In some states, you also can't renew your driver's license.

The real penalties come from failing to report or refusing to take the oath of enlistment when you get a draft notice.

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

Public service, community service - a pig by any other name is still a pig.

To be clear, I'm talking about any kind of "service" that is the product of implicit or explicit coercion, from a draft, to "volunteering" as a high school graduation or college admissions requirement, and even some less obvious forms. If a young person wants to do some volunteer work for sincere personal reasons that is fine and dandy, but the instant there is any whiff of coercion or even of explicitly calculated advantage-seeking* in it, the act is irrevoccably poisoned.


*If a kid wants to do it for it's own sake but is aware that this won't look bad on his or her "permanent record," that is OK. If he or she is mainly doing for that record, it's poisoned for purposes of what you are talking about.

I can see your revulsion to coercion or requiring, but why to calculated advantage-seeking. People join the military service, in particular, for various purposes, and one of these is to get money for college. Probably everyone who signs up for one tour of duty expects to get some advantage or benefit out of it. Do you really have a problem with that?

 

[shereads]

My sister and brother-in-law are staunch supporters of George W. Bush and believed him absolutely when he said the Iraq war was God's will, and that America had a duty to bring democracy to the middle east. Anyone who questioned the president has been branded an America-hater, and "godless" to boot.

The problem is, their son was listening.

He's about to turn 18 and can hardly wait to join the Army. His parents are desperately trying to talk him out of it. They've all but begged him not to go. His father and uncles regale him with stories of the fun they had in college. It's been hinted that he can have a new car if he commits to at least two years of college, rather than joining the military.

He told his mom that his mind was made up. He said he'd be proud to give his life for his country. She was so frustrated when she told me this, she almost spat the words.

I wish he'd been exposed to some points of view besides Fox News, his church and private school. He might question whether his life could have more value someplace other than Iraq. Having heard for years that people who question the war hate their country, he's not about to start now.

Chalk up one for the volunteer army. God keep him safe, and forgive the parents who failed to count the cost in sons until their own raised his hand.

 

[shereads]

I got your back ami, now start movin' towards the door...

Hear, hear, Roxy. Couldn'a said it better myself.

We don't want war, Dumplin', but a boot on the neck isn't my idea of high fashion.

Can anyone guess why 'The Art of War' by Sun-Tsu is still in print, and required reading in most military academies. Thaat's right, cause war is inevetable and those who are prepared, win.

Like it or not, a lot of folks aren't afraid to fight and take what's yours. And five will get you ten, there's another Hitler being born somewhere right now.

Stay low and keep your powder dry.

Fungus out.

Peace.

Tom (TE999)

This is a bit like explaining "Water World" by saying movies are inevitable.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I can see your revulsion to coercion or requiring, but why to calculated advantage-seeking. People join the military service, in particular, for various purposes, and one of these is to get money for college. Probably everyone who signs up for one tour of duty expects to get some advantage or benefit out of it. Do you really have a problem with that?

It's not the worst thing, but it can create cynicism, lead to hypocracry, and on top of that it certainly does not contribute to the character-building exercise Harold was referring to. When someone gets a job to contribute to his or her personal advantage, that builds character. When someone affects to be "helping others" but it's really about personal advantage, that builds something else. Actually, that's exactly what politicians do. It's teaching kids to emulate politicians. Ugh.

 

[Pure]

just wondering, ami, ... based on your research in Atlas Shrugged, when do you figure conscription is coming?

 

[wazhazhe]

My sister and brother-in-law are staunch supporters of George W. Bush and believed him absolutely when he said the Iraq war was God's will, and that America had a duty to bring democracy to the middle east. Anyone who questioned the president has been branded an America-hater, and "godless" to boot.

The problem is, their son was listening.

He's about to turn 18 and can hardly wait to join the Army. His parents are desperately trying to talk him out of it. They've all but begged him not to go. His father and uncles regale him with stories of the fun they had in college. It's been hinted that he can have a new car if he commits to at least two years of college, rather than joining the military.

He told his mom that his mind was made up. He said he'd be proud to give his life for his country. She was so frustrated when she told me this, she almost spat the words.

I wish he'd been exposed to some points of view besides Fox News, his church and private school. He might question whether his life could have more value someplace other than Iraq. Having heard for years that people who question the war hate their country, he's not about to start now.

Chalk up one for the volunteer army. God keep him safe, and forgive the parents who failed to count the cost in sons until their own raised his hand.

That sounds like my sister and brother-in-law except they are both in the military. The brother-in-law encouraged both kids to join the military over the objections of my sister. One is currently in Iraq. I believe my sister is rethinking her politics.

 

[shereads]

Here's a question:

How many tours of duty can a person be required to serve, one after another, in Afghanistan and Iraq, and how many leaves can be revoked, before the word "volunteer" no longer applies in any but a technical sense?

Where's the moral indignation over force and coercion when it applies to reservists who had no reasonable expectation of making military combat a full-time career? Politically, it's no doubt easier to say people serving multiple tours of duty knew what they were getting into when they signed up, but does anyone really believe it?

"You fucked up; you trusted us."

Edited to add:

In their study of the economic costs of the war published by the AEI/Brookings Joint Center in 2005, Scott Wallsten and Katrina Kosec calculated that the “opportunity cost” of using Reserve troops at current levels is $3.9 billion to date.

Note, moreover, that a disproportionate number of these reservists work in critical “first-responder” jobs back home – as fire-fighters, police and emergency medical personnel. Nearly half the police forces in the United States now have some of their ranks deployed in Iraq, and the average length of Guard mobilization is 480 days. It is difficult to measure the cost of this deployment in purely economic terms because there is a large unquantifiable “insurance” value of having trained first responders available for domestic emergencies. Consider, for example, the losses associated with Hurricane Katrina that might have been avoided if the 7,000 Louisiana and Mississippi Guardsmen in Iraq had been home to help.

 

[Huckleman2000]

You know, after all the bogus bills trotted out every 2 years by the Republicans to whip up the basest of their base (Flag burning, Gay marriage, Torturing brown people...) and the ones that just get served up by circumstance (Terri Schaivo...), I would think that you guys would recognize a little red meat for what it is.

 

[Pure]

arguments for a draft

a fellow was interviewed last night, who made a good case.

he said, consider the alternatives, some of which are happening:

"contractors", whose soldiers are very expensive

lowered standard for volunteers (20% may now be of borderline intelligence)

foreigners-- those who serve with the possible incentive of citizenship after X many years.


----

i'm suprised too, that those who fear state power, don't fear it's having a professional army at its beck and call. the opposition to 'standing armies' goes way back in US tradition. 'standing armies' and mercenaries tend to get used.

rummy was pretty clear that the pres, on his own authority gets to send troops wherever he pleases. i'm surprised that those claiming to be against 'statism' (arbitrary and powerful governments) don't figure this one out.

 

[amicus]

Just a blurb on CNN news this morning about how recruiting difficulties for the US Army may fuel calls for re-instituting the Draft...

Yes, I even drop in to MSNBC now and then, sleeping with the enemy I guess...

I googled a bit on CNN but was unable to locate a transcript of the news item but found earlier pieces criticizing coercion by recruiters to get young people to sign up.

We shall see if it is just a 'red meat' issue as someone intimated...


amicus...

 

[wazhazhe]

Here's a question:

How many tours of duty can a person be required to serve, one after another, in Afghanistan and Iraq, and how many leaves can be revoked, before the word "volunteer" no longer applies in any but a technical sense?

The term of enlistment for regular military service, National Guard or reserves can be extended regardless of the wishes of the individual. Also tours of duty in Iraq may be extended or repeated. I read of one National Guard unit (from Texas, I think) that is going to Iraq for its 5th tour next month.

 

[ozymandiask]

My, oh, my, how the loathsome noisome turds float to the surface of the cesspool even from down-under in Lemonaide land (those former convicts don't deserve to be called Limey's after the latter day, "The Sun Never Sets on the Priggish Empire" Tommies who got their asses kicked all over the continent and had to swim home without their panties from Dunkirk..

Nevermind that MacArthur and the US Navy rushed to the aid as the asinine Aussie's huddled round munching on Wallabee waffles and Kangaroo soup and then got pissed as all the decent girls flocked around the Yanks and sucked up those K-Ration Lucky Strikes and Chesterfields, first real tobacco the Kiwi's too had ever inhaled.

The American GI's (Government Issue) even managed in infuse a bit of rejuvenating Yankee Blood into the depleted prison stock all the way from Sidney to A Town Called Alice.

The most endearing remembrance, all over the world was the amazement that the GI's in their K-Rations had little rectangular packages of toilet paper issued each man, along with the coffee packs and candy bars, all three of which items the poor blokes down-under had never seen before, I guess they, like the Chinese, used one finger of the non-eating hand to cleanse themselves, aborgine like, I guess.

I even poked an Aussie lass one fine night on a beach in Waikiki, like most things British and wannabee, she had been used and abused before, but she was greatful anyway.

I guess the poor Brits and their issue never ever really got over being tossed out of the American Colonies by a rag tag batch of rebels...they do have such long and tedious memories.

Still nursing the inbred incestual class system from Singapore to Liverpool, blue blood Brits, Canucks, Aussies and Kiwi's still can't accept that the common man, the American foot soldier, kicked royal ass all over the globe. And still today, the fester over the efficacy of a free people who have taken over being the guiding light in a dark world.

Thus Ozmandipussy, your ill disguised anti all things American falls somewhat short of anything but jealosy which is also best served cold.

chuckles...thas almost a work of art if I do say so myself...


amicus....

I am not going to respond to this save to observe that it in no way responds to my post and says far more about you than me.

However a couple of facts may assist you. Ozymandias is the name of a poem by Percy Shelley. It is about an Egyptian King and the utter uselessness of empty boasting. Read it and learn something.

I am not an Australian but it has been my base for the past 5 years.

Prior to coming here I worked for the US armed forces for over 30 years specialising in the selection, training, and leading of specialist operations.

You Amicus can at least rest easy that a man of your quality would never be selected for any of the elite units I worked with. Your writing alone shows disturbingly, a mind which is frequently self delusional, which resorts to fantasy when pressed and reacts with paranoic anger when cornered. Your posts are those of a fantasist .

You are however more to be pitied than despised.

God bless you.

 

[Trinique_Fire]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,230598,00.html

Rangel Calls for Reinstating Military Draft
Sunday, November 19, 2006


WASHINGTON — "...A senior House Democrat said Sunday he will introduce legislation to reinstate the military draft, asserting that current troop levels are insufficient to sustain possible challenges against Iran, North Korea and Iraq....

...Rangel, incoming chairman of the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee, said he worried the military was being strained by its overseas commitments...

..He said having a draft would not necessarily mean everyone called to duty would have to serve. Instead, "young people (would) commit themselves to a couple of years in service to this great republic, whether it's our seaports, our airports, in schools, in hospitals," with a promise of educational benefits at the end of service..."

~~~~~~

That should please the left, social liberals and a whole host of social democrats.

Added to a left wing philosophy of raising taxes, limiting energy resources, controlling, regulating and taxing industry until they move out of the country, demanding Universal service for all young people, male and female under threat of incarceration for avoiding the draft...this just about rounds out the agenda for a now Democrat controlled Congress.

Happy now?


amicus...

Only you would choose to post a link taking us to the Fox News Network.

 

[amicus]

I know the poem, thank you and even some Byron and Keats...

"...You Amicus can at least rest easy that a man of your quality would never be selected for any of the elite units I worked with. Your writing alone shows disturbingly, a mind which is frequently self delusional, which resorts to fantasy when pressed and reacts with paranoic anger cornered. Your posts are those of a fantasist .

You are however more to be pitied than despised.

God bless you...."

Being a militant non believer, thanks but no thanks...

Sighs...and I thought the humor of my post would will out....alas...y'all are so bitter the finer things in life just pass you on by...


amicus...