Defining Incest

[ElectricBlue]

I take it you never had sisters. About the most unreal creatures on the planet.

One sis year's younger, one five year's older (the one who then left the country when I was a kid). She's why it's gnawing at me.

- and to address the kind soul who pointed out the age thing a few posts up - not interested in that side of it, but the time twenty - thirty years on, with adults (also, do homework on Electra...).

 

[KindofHere]

..............

 

[8letters]

OK, taking what you are saying for a point of discussion, how about an Oedipus scenario? Oedipus was damned by the gods, blinded himself in guilt. Yet he did not know. In legal terms, mens rea, the guilty intent, was not there, yet the sin was. Or Electricblue's emigre sister? No power imbalances. So now what?

Oedipus isn't really a mother-son incest story as their relationship ends when they discover they are mother and son - which they find out in public - and Oedipus responds to that public outing by blinding himself.

Emotionally, I would find consensual sibling incest the 'least-Eeew' of the lot. Must think on that.

Read "My European Summer Vacation" in my sig. It's heavy on the romance, light on the incest.

 

[SimonDoom]

Oedipus isn't really a mother-son incest story as their relationship ends when they discover they are mother and son - which they find out in public - and Oedipus responds to that public outing by blinding himself.

It's an incest story, not because of the character motivation and plot, but because of its reader appeal. There's a reason why it's the most famous of all Ancient Greek plays. It's titillating and sensational. I'm sure Sophocles knew that.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Nope

Need to find a real example.

I am going to pull back from this. Frankly, I should not have agreed with that in the first place. This is a fiction/fantasy site and the discussion has moved from one incident concerning one rather disturbed act to a philosophical or hypothetical one concerning the overarching nature of incest. As such, O. Rex is a valid example if only because it embodies the essential horror with which incest is viewed.

Real examples can be found in the records of any criminal court. Not going there, either.

8letters: Oedipus isn't really a mother-son incest story as their relationship ends when they discover they are mother and son - which they find out in public - and Oedipus responds to that public outing by blinding himself.

I see what you are saying, but to me, it is definitely an incest story. Oedipus slays his father and beds his mother - arguably the two worst sins in the ancient world. Those crimes brought he and virtually his entire family (including his mother and one of his daughters/half sisters) to their doom. Yet is is clear that none of them were aware of the sin/crime at the time. It is clear that to Sophocles (and no doubt to the audience he was writing for) some crimes could never be excused or forgiven, could never have mitigating circumstances. It's almost Biblical in the way that guilt spread and flowed to the innocent.

 

[NotWise]

I am going to pull back from this. Frankly, I should not have agreed with that in the first place. This is a fiction/fantasy site and the discussion has moved from one incident concerning one rather disturbed act to a philosophical or hypothetical one concerning the overarching nature of incest. As such, O. Rex is a valid example if only because it embodies the essential horror with which incest is viewed.

I've reviewed the last couple pages of this thread and I don't understand what you guys think you're talking about, or why Oedipus Rex is or is not relevant.

Was this a question about whether romantic relationships realistically can exist between closely-related individuals? If that's the question, then look into the cases of Genetic Sexual Attraction (GSA, not to be confused with Girl Scouts of America). GSA is offset in most cases by the Westermarck effect.

GSA would account for a small number of actual cases of incest, as the necessary conditions are unusual.

Most real cases of incest involve at least one person who is underage. Often very underage, and the psychological impact on the victim is large and negative. But I/T stories on Lit have little or nothing to do with reality. They as fantastic as time travel.

 

[SimonDoom]

Most real cases of incest involve at least one person who is underage. Often very underage, and the psychological impact on the victim is large and negative. But I/T stories on Lit have little or nothing to do with reality. They as fantastic as time travel.

But so what? How is that in any way important to stories here?

Incest threads here baffle me. It seems to bother people that "real" incest is not the same as incest here, and I don't know why. That may not be your point; I may misunderstand your point.

I don't see why writers of stories on this site should be required to care at all whether the subject matter of their stories is or is not like the subject matter of real life. Nobody faults a Sci Fi story writer of writing about things that don't correspond to the real world.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

SimonDoon, NotWise - I agree. I am sorry I let myself get sidetracked.

For me, the real thing is, um, icky at best. I am, I guess, intellectually curious as to whether or not a GSA is legitimately possible in the real world, power imbalance being a major argument against.

In any case, fully agreed that this is a fantasyland and, whatever my own personal feelings may be, they're mine only and I'm not judging other people's.

Thanks for mentioning the Westermarck Effect. I had not heard of it earlier. I wonder how that would have played out in Neolithic times, when our ancestors lived in comparatively small groups, with little interchange between groups. (That there was some is clear, otherwise our ancestors would have been crippled by inbreeding.) Anyway, cool concept and thanks for my daily dose of education.

 

[8letters]

For me, the real thing is, um, icky at best. I am, I guess, intellectually curious as to whether or not a GSA is legitimately possible in the real world, power imbalance being a major argument against.

Thanks for mentioning the Westermarck Effect. I had not heard of it earlier.

GSA and Westermarck Effect sound like bullshit to me - sweeping conclusions reached per Wikipedia on not a lot of data. I think incest is taboo because society finds it unacceptable. As I said before, for a family to function effectively, it needs incest to be unacceptable.

In any case, fully agreed that this is a fantasyland and, whatever my own personal feelings may be, they're mine only and I'm not judging other people's.

My position is that the consensual sex between adult family members does happen, though it's very rare despite a huge amount of interest in those type of relationships. That fact that it's so rare is what makes it interesting.

 

[NotWise]

But so what? How is that in any way important to stories here?

Incest threads here baffle me. It seems to bother people that "real" incest is not the same as incest here, and I don't know why. That may not be your point; I may misunderstand your point.

I don't see why writers of stories on this site should be required to care at all whether the subject matter of their stories is or is not like the subject matter of real life. Nobody faults a Sci Fi story writer of writing about things that don't correspond to the real world.

Simon, I write I/T stories. It doesn't bother me at all that they are largely unrealistic. I wouldn't want them to be realistic. The real stories would most likely be tragic, so I want them to be fantastic.

 

[NotWise]

GSA and Westermarck Effect sound like bullshit to me - sweeping conclusions reached per Wikipedia on not a lot of data. I think incest is taboo because society finds it unacceptable. As I said before, for a family to function effectively, it needs incest to be unacceptable.

I recall that the Westermarck effect was originally based on a controlled study that was published in peer-reviewed journals. It is reasonably well-founded. I've also read psychological studies that were intended to test the effect, with mixed results.

GSA was originally based entirely on anecdotes, and as such its nature and existence aren't founded in good science. However, it seems to be fairly common.

It's been a long time now, but I once read that GSA is common enough that adoption agencies that arrange meetings between estranged siblings may council them on the effect. In particular, this was supposed to be done at one of the largest agencies in the UK. In that context, GSA most commonly resulted in kissing and compulsive touching and didn't last very long--maybe not past the first meeting. It sometimes resulted in sex, but not in long-term sexual relationships.

GSA has also been used as a legal defence in Germany and the UK.

I have no doubt that there are real, adult incestuous relationships. There are--if nothing else--police reports of such. Social isolation may be a factor in some of those.

 

[SimonDoom]

Simon, I write I/T stories. It doesn't bother me at all that they are largely unrealistic. I wouldn't want them to be realistic. The real stories would most likely be tragic, so I want them to be fantastic.

OK! I was confused by the thread. Different views given where there is the appearance of disagreement but where it's difficult to tell exactly what heart of the disagreement is.

 

[NotWise]

OK! I was confused by the thread. Different views given where there is the appearance of disagreement but where it's difficult to tell exactly what heart of the disagreement is.

That's exactly the problem I was having. I'm still not sure where the thread went after it launched.

There is one thing I would say about "reality" in I/T stories. Just like any fantasy, I/T stories depend on a suspension of disbelief. That's usually pretty easy with the I/T readers because they *want* to suspend disbelief. but the setup on a lot of stories is so bad that sometimes I just can't do it.

That might be from overused themes (e.g. long car trip with Mommy sitting on son's lap) or from extremely unreal situations (e.g. father and daughter trapped by some sinister crew and forced to fuck), and sometimes its from a complete lack of character (like the giggling, empty-headed, horny little sister).

There needs to be just enough reality in the right places to make it possible to suspend disbelief.

 

[KindofHere]

.............

 

[NotWise]

8letters couldn't think of a scenario where a parent/child romantic relationship was compatible. That opinion is somehow based in reality. Fantasy is easy to make happen, but that opinion has some reality reinforcing it. So, if you want help change 8letters point of view, a true romantic relationship is a better argument than a false one. (This has nothing to do with the fantasy of Lit - completely separate.)

Oedipus relevant to this threat? Yeah. A good topic for this thread? Yeah. The best way to convince 8letter that a parent/child romantic relationship is possible? No.

Thanks. No wonder i was confused.

 

[8letters]

8letters couldn't think of a scenario where a parent/child romantic relationship was compatible. That opinion is somehow based in reality. Fantasy is easy to make happen, but that opinion has some reality reinforcing it. So, if you want help change 8letters point of view, a true romantic relationship is a better argument than a false one. (This has nothing to do with the fantasy of Lit - completely separate.)

I didn't clearly state my exact opinion, which is:
* A parent/child relationship is not compatible with a romantic relationship. By parent-child, I mean where the parent bosses the child to do what he/she should do. The moms I know all boss their kids as long as they live at home
* I know of no real-world older woman-younger man relationships that I could use to model a mother-son relationship on. There are thousands of older man-younger women to model a dad-daughter relationship on
* So I can't think up any mother-son stories that fits my style of romantic incest despite being asked several times to try. I have thought of a couple of dad-daughter ones

Oedipus relevant to this threat? Yeah. A good topic for this thread? Yeah. The best way to convince 8letter that a parent/child romantic relationship is possible? No.

To me, Oedipus is relevant in that it shows that (1) mother-son incest was considered as taboo back then as it is now and (3) mother-son incest was as titillating and sensational back then as it is now.

 

[KindofHere]

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[LIVINRFANTASIES]

Denny

Just saying; I find it rather hard to believe a person would (or could) sleep through what you describe? But, whatever

Rather hard to believe so the entire story is fake news.
Yet when younger I'd fuck my young wife and her two girlfriends as they slept. Not at the same time! Sometimes they fucked or sucked me as I slept. Of course I'd wake up or I'd never known. How many times I got fucked, I don't know. I lived a troubled life as a poor sex starved skinny white boy. It was years before I'd find out this was almost normal.

So much for the simple "yes" or "no." Thread closed.

Wait I haven't given my NO answer yet!

My future mother in law often semi-forced me to fondle and suck her nipples and titties. My future wife's younger sister often got in my way when I ejaculated in their bed with the both of them lying in it.
Not married I believed this was a safe way to prevent pregnancy. Later I learned it wasn't a safe way!

So.......... I'm safe from incest because my girlfriend was not yet my wife?
Sure glad I never became a mother-in-law fucker later when she kept begging me.
Glad we came back to Lit. So much yet to learn.............. so little time to practice.

 

[NotWise]

* A parent/child relationship is not compatible with a romantic relationship. By parent-child, I mean where the parent bosses the child to do what he/she should do. The moms I know all boss their kids as long as they live at home

I've written two mother/son stories, one of which will never see the light of Lit. In one case it happened after the son no longer lived at home. The need to get his mother to treat him like an adult was part of the son's motivation. in the other case, the mother played a dominant role and guided her son into the relationship. The first case was regarded by Lit readers as a romantic story. The second case could be romantic, but it wasn't in my story. (It ended after Dad raped the daughter and committed himself to psychiatric care when the son confronted him. Mom was more concerned about getting laid than she was about her husband's well-being, which annoyed the son to violent persuasion. Ends with son and daughter curled up in an easy chair together.)

* I know of no real-world older woman-younger man relationships that I could use to model a mother-son relationship on. There are thousands of older man-younger women to model a dad-daughter relationship on

Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher?

I don't personally know of any older man-younger woman relationships in which the age difference is like daddy/daughter--except a few that got the attention of the courts. Besides, I have three daughters and daddy/daughter stories give me the creeps. I'm not looking for examples.

* So I can't think up any mother-son stories that fits my style of romantic incest despite being asked several times to try. I have thought of a couple of dad-daughter ones

I've only done one request and it's the least popular story I've written.

That does seem to me like an artificial limitation to your creativity. Are you sure you just don't find Mom/son stories to be creepy (my reaction to Daddy/daughter).

 

[NotWise]

Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher?

Yeesh! Quoting myself.

For an even bigger age gap, there's "Harold and Maude." It's a great flick. There was a brief time after "Brewster McCloud" and "Harold and Maude" when Bud Cort and Ruth Gordon were my favorite actor and actress.

 

[Hypoxia]

ObTopic, Defining Incest:

It's incest if the local society says so. Some cultures required sibling marriage, usually of royals. Many cultures feature cousin marriage, and some avuncular marriage. Then and there, it's not incest. In other cultures, touching a kin-by-marriage (no blood relation) is incest.

Real-world *incest* is usually ugly - filthy - rape - abuse of minors by older relatives. It's definitely not erotic for non-psychopaths. LIT's incest fantasy tales avoid reality, right? We have nice motherfuckers, darling Daddy!s, sweet siblings, woo woo. Unreal.

I try to write Incest tales as 'real' as possible -- except for the ugly truth. I'm a liar.

 

[weftandwarp]

ObTopic, Defining Incest:

It's incest if the local society says so. Some cultures required sibling marriage, usually of royals. Many cultures feature cousin marriage, and some avuncular marriage. Then and there, it's not incest. In other cultures, touching a kin-by-marriage (no blood relation) is incest.

Real-world *incest* is usually ugly - filthy - rape - abuse of minors by older relatives. It's definitely not erotic for non-psychopaths. LIT's incest fantasy tales avoid reality, right? We have nice motherfuckers, darling Daddy!s, sweet siblings, woo woo. Unreal.

I try to write Incest tales as 'real' as possible -- except for the ugly truth. I'm a liar.

Here incest is defined with a maximum sentence of 25 years. Thankfully it's not paragraphs. Some in the past have said words to the effect there is no liability for what is written here. My guess is it would provide excellent corroborating evidence at least. To stay with Her Majesty may seem special but to be a formal guest of Her Majesty or to be at Her Pleasure may be an entirely different matter- particularly for 25 years in edifices that aren't at all like Buckingham Palase.

 

[8letters]

I don't personally know of any older man-younger woman relationships in which the age difference is like daddy/daughter--except a few that got the attention of the courts.

I can think of four marriages where I knew one member and the age difference was at least 12 years. Last I heard, all were still married.

Some statistics I got from a paper I found (link):
* Men in the US on average are 2.7 years older than their wives in first marriages
* Men in the US on average are 9 years older than their wives in subsequent marriages
* Men in the Forbes 400 are on average 7 years older than their wives in first marriages
* Men in the Forbes 400 are on average 22 years older than their wives in subsequent marriages

History is full of men marrying much younger women. They are oodles of romance novels where the beautiful young woman marries a rich older man (Emma by Jane Austen marries someone 16 years her elder). In movies, older male actors are constantly cast with much younger female love interests. In the Bond Film For Your Eyes Only, there was a 30 years age difference between Roger Moore and Carole Bouquet. In Pretty Woman, Julia Roberts was 18 years younger than Richard Gere and in I Love Trouble, she was 26 years younger than Nick Nolte.

That does seem to me like an artificial limitation to your creativity. Are you sure you just don't find Mom/son stories to be creepy (my reaction to Daddy/daughter).

I don't find Mom/son stories creepy. I rather enjoy reading them. alwayswantedto was one of my favorite authors. But when I try to think of an HEA relationship for a mom-son story, there's nothing for me to model it on.

 

[SimonDoom]

But when I try to think of an HEA relationship for a mom-son story, there's nothing for me to model it on.

I think of it like this. Godzilla isn't realistic; in fact, he's impossible. So in a sense he's not a model for any sensible story. But people still like Godzilla movies, because they can suspend disbelief about Godzilla. So the mom/son relationship can be the Godzilla in your story, and it can be made to be romantic, or whatever you want it to be, as long as you don't ask the readership to suspend disbelief about too many other things.

But if you don't like Godzilla or find Godzilla romantic, then there's no point in writing a story about him.

 

[Wyldfire]

I think of it like this. Godzilla isn't realistic; in fact, he's impossible. So in a sense he's not a model for any sensible story. But people still like Godzilla movies, because they can suspend disbelief about Godzilla. So the mom/son relationship can be the Godzilla in your story, and it can be made to be romantic, or whatever you want it to be, as long as you don't ask the readership to suspend disbelief about too many other things.

But if you don't like Godzilla or find Godzilla romantic, then there's no point in writing a story about him.

Motherfucker, no! You so do not compare Godfuckingzilla to incest. Godzilla fucking rocks. See Hypoxia's definition of modern incest for that shit. Even in fucking fantasy. There is no Godzilla in fucking incest.