Define sex
- Thread starter Richard49
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FungiUg
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Pulling out his giant wooden spoon
Well, for me, on-line D/s isn't sexual.
I think I know what you're getting at Richard, and while I personally go with the "why bother if it doesn't include sex", I know others do manage to practice D/s without it including sex. For example, if I were to spank someone (without copping a feel), and that was it... then it could be argued that it didn't include sex.
Each to their own. I know what rocks my boat, so I just concentrate on playing with compatible people.
Well, for me, on-line D/s isn't sexual.
I think I know what you're getting at Richard, and while I personally go with the "why bother if it doesn't include sex", I know others do manage to practice D/s without it including sex. For example, if I were to spank someone (without copping a feel), and that was it... then it could be argued that it didn't include sex.
Each to their own. I know what rocks my boat, so I just concentrate on playing with compatible people.
Richard49 said:
okay -- IMO --
sex is quite simply defined as intercourse or oral or any other varient to the point of orgasm. After that, i would consider things sexual, teasing, or perhaps foreplay, but not necessarily sex. If He catches me in the bathroom and demands access to my mouth for a few moments but does not orgasm, i do not consider that we just had sex, but engaged in some sexual teasing. If He grabs my hair or slaps my ass hard a few times, purposely doing something to arouse me, i consider that sexual, but for me i would not say we had sex. There can be a lot of and varied forms of sexual interaction, but i don't consider that the same thing as sex.
i also do things for Him that are not sexual at all. It all comes down to D/s in the relationship. The dynamic is there in and out of the bedroom. It exists no matter where we are. i am not at all sure though that i could engage in a D/s relationship and *not* have sex or sexual activity. It is all tied together for me in one big, complete package.
i hope i may have answered Your question on some level You were looking for. If not, i did try.
zanna
lark sparrow
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Extremely subjective topic.
We could look at the more negative defining aspects: sexual abuse, rape, sexual harrassment - these do not always include penis-vagina intercourse or orgasms.
We could look at 'what is a virgin?' for contrast. I don't think the old standby of having an intact hymen still stands as a defining concept.
We could look at gay and lesbian people who don't have penis-vagina sex, but do have sex (otherwise what is all the fuss about?) and whose civil rights are still openly debated.
Can't forget about cyber sex, cam sex or phone sex these days either. Though it physically amounts to masturbation, there is still an intimate connection to another human being. Note divorces and break ups over such activity!
We could add pro Dominance and the law to this as well - "no sex", but BDSM is often a very sexual/erotic activity.
If you cane someone until s/he comes would that be defined as sex? If not, how about while being caned they were penetrated by a dildo, buttplug or fingers and came? What if s/he gives someone else oral sex while cumming from being caned?
We could look at the more negative defining aspects: sexual abuse, rape, sexual harrassment - these do not always include penis-vagina intercourse or orgasms.
We could look at 'what is a virgin?' for contrast. I don't think the old standby of having an intact hymen still stands as a defining concept.
We could look at gay and lesbian people who don't have penis-vagina sex, but do have sex (otherwise what is all the fuss about?) and whose civil rights are still openly debated.
Can't forget about cyber sex, cam sex or phone sex these days either. Though it physically amounts to masturbation, there is still an intimate connection to another human being. Note divorces and break ups over such activity!
We could add pro Dominance and the law to this as well - "no sex", but BDSM is often a very sexual/erotic activity.
If you cane someone until s/he comes would that be defined as sex? If not, how about while being caned they were penetrated by a dildo, buttplug or fingers and came? What if s/he gives someone else oral sex while cumming from being caned?
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catalina_francisco
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I fully agree with the previous posting. Anything and everything can be considered sex. It really all depends on the people involved.
Sex is a very personal thing it depends on the definition of the people involved. The line between sexual and sex is almost invisible.
Caning, whipping receiving or giving pain could be considered by some not to be sex while others would disagree. Sex is what you yourself define it to be, not what others tell you. It is only possible to define it for yourself not for others.
For me sex is almost anything I do with my SO. Even a drive together through the woods I consider sex. Sex is not always cumming although it often leads to it. It is more often than not leading to penetration but not always. It is almost anything we do together.
As an example we could look at whores. The acts they are being paid to do would be considered by most as being sex. But if you talk with most prostitutes I am sure they will say that the only time they have sex is with their partner.
This makes it simply said impossible to define sex for anyone but yourself.
Being myself active in the Lifestyle for about 9 years and being the dominant part of a TPE 24/7 relationship I fully disagree with the idea that BDSM does not need to be sexual. Everything I do, everything we have in our relationship has at the minimum a sexual undertone. I simply can not comprehend how you could disconnect sex, sexuality out of a TPE 24/7 BDSM relationship. However I also know that BDSM is what you make out of it yourself so I suppose that there must be people out there that can do it.
F.
Sex is a very personal thing it depends on the definition of the people involved. The line between sexual and sex is almost invisible.
Caning, whipping receiving or giving pain could be considered by some not to be sex while others would disagree. Sex is what you yourself define it to be, not what others tell you. It is only possible to define it for yourself not for others.
For me sex is almost anything I do with my SO. Even a drive together through the woods I consider sex. Sex is not always cumming although it often leads to it. It is more often than not leading to penetration but not always. It is almost anything we do together.
As an example we could look at whores. The acts they are being paid to do would be considered by most as being sex. But if you talk with most prostitutes I am sure they will say that the only time they have sex is with their partner.
This makes it simply said impossible to define sex for anyone but yourself.
Being myself active in the Lifestyle for about 9 years and being the dominant part of a TPE 24/7 relationship I fully disagree with the idea that BDSM does not need to be sexual. Everything I do, everything we have in our relationship has at the minimum a sexual undertone. I simply can not comprehend how you could disconnect sex, sexuality out of a TPE 24/7 BDSM relationship. However I also know that BDSM is what you make out of it yourself so I suppose that there must be people out there that can do it.
F.
Shadowsdream
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catalina_francisco said:
It would be pointless to try to find another way to describe 24/7 D/s lifestyle/lovestyle sexuality that I live every day.
Or maybe I am just having a lazy day...BUT...
I believe it has been said more than adequately in previous posts in the thread...
Richard49
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Seems to me that if I do something to someone
or someone does something to me
that brings sexual excitment
it is sex
weather anyone orgasm or not
if she makes me dinner as a sub
and that action excits me sexually
it is sex
I just can not see D/s that is not sex
buit then I am not Bill Clinton
or someone does something to me
that brings sexual excitment
it is sex
weather anyone orgasm or not
if she makes me dinner as a sub
and that action excits me sexually
it is sex
I just can not see D/s that is not sex
buit then I am not Bill Clinton
Azalea
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I agree with Richard....sexuality encompasses our whole being, not just our genitalia. he production of a physical response called an orgasm does not define a sexual experience. To me, it is a sexual experience when I become overwhelmed by some breathtaking natural secne or event......or when I find the beauty of someone stimulating and arousing......or when I read something that stirs my responses.......I wake up aroused and go to bed aroused......I walk around all day aroused by being alive and able to respond to my world with passion.
The nonorgasmic sexual experiences I have in role-playing with net friends/lovers is as real to me as bedroom play.
The nonorgasmic sexual experiences I have in role-playing with net friends/lovers is as real to me as bedroom play.
D's mariposa
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Ok, on Richard's Question..
There is always an undercurrent of eroticism in our lives. Even the boring stuff. The boring stuff is just like a break cause no one can be turned on all the time. But in the back of your head, you always know that this is just a temporary lull. The only thing that is non erotic would be punishment.
Maybe I'm just living a charmed a life, but we've never had a serious punishment issue. If we did, I would not get a spanking, caning or anything like that because it creates confusion. How can you create discipline by giving someone something they like? D has a half joking threat; that if I ever do seriously screw up that badly, he going to make me eat oatmeal. With raisins. For the record, I ate oatmeal nearly every morning for the first 12 years of my life. I HATE oatmeal. In any form. And dried fruit is just gross. Eat it when it's still fruit or throw it in the compost heat.
So in answer to Richard's and Solitude's question, there is an undercurrent of eroticism to our D/s relationship except with regards to punishment issues.
There is always an undercurrent of eroticism in our lives. Even the boring stuff. The boring stuff is just like a break cause no one can be turned on all the time. But in the back of your head, you always know that this is just a temporary lull. The only thing that is non erotic would be punishment.
Maybe I'm just living a charmed a life, but we've never had a serious punishment issue. If we did, I would not get a spanking, caning or anything like that because it creates confusion. How can you create discipline by giving someone something they like? D has a half joking threat; that if I ever do seriously screw up that badly, he going to make me eat oatmeal. With raisins. For the record, I ate oatmeal nearly every morning for the first 12 years of my life. I HATE oatmeal. In any form. And dried fruit is just gross. Eat it when it's still fruit or throw it in the compost heat.
So in answer to Richard's and Solitude's question, there is an undercurrent of eroticism to our D/s relationship except with regards to punishment issues.
psiberzerker
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Just the kind of semantic question I revel in, thanks, Richard for giving me the opportunity to chime in.
IMHO, sex inheirently involves physical contact. Anything less, cyber, or phone "sex" is fantasy at best. This doesn't limit BDSM, because there's all kind of contact there, but then, I'm not done yet.
Seccondly, sex requires arousal. I don't always get hard when I'm being whipped, or burned, if I do, it's sexual to me. I guess you could use humidity to gauge females. Regardless, there has to be some physical reaction to the stimulus, unless it's abusive.
That's where it get's tricky. You can sexually harrass without contact, sexually assault without arousal, so here, it's a bit of a grey area. I don't concider rape, and other sexual assaults sex for the victim, but perhaps for the mollester. I don't know, I've never really been in that position.
Lastly, there is preemption, which may stop it short of sex. If you're getting your oil checked, and are interrupted before you get a reading did you actually have sex? I guess it all comes down to personall interpretation. I know personally that this can be punitively painfull (In an ironicly un-erotic way). {Pardon the language, I like a little allitteration, but not everyone does.}
So, I guess the closest I can get to a quantitive definition is "Concentual physical contact that results in arousal, and erotic pleasure.
As usual...
IMHO, sex inheirently involves physical contact. Anything less, cyber, or phone "sex" is fantasy at best. This doesn't limit BDSM, because there's all kind of contact there, but then, I'm not done yet.
Seccondly, sex requires arousal. I don't always get hard when I'm being whipped, or burned, if I do, it's sexual to me. I guess you could use humidity to gauge females. Regardless, there has to be some physical reaction to the stimulus, unless it's abusive.
That's where it get's tricky. You can sexually harrass without contact, sexually assault without arousal, so here, it's a bit of a grey area. I don't concider rape, and other sexual assaults sex for the victim, but perhaps for the mollester. I don't know, I've never really been in that position.
Lastly, there is preemption, which may stop it short of sex. If you're getting your oil checked, and are interrupted before you get a reading did you actually have sex? I guess it all comes down to personall interpretation. I know personally that this can be punitively painfull (In an ironicly un-erotic way). {Pardon the language, I like a little allitteration, but not everyone does.}
So, I guess the closest I can get to a quantitive definition is "Concentual physical contact that results in arousal, and erotic pleasure.
As usual...
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lark sparrow
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Richard49 said:
I believe I understand what you are saying, but...
If all a sub does is cook you dinner and make you sexually excited but it never leads to mutual touching which leads to an orgasm for one or both of you, would you actually say, yes, I had sex with that woman?
catalina_francisco
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I do not think actual contact is necessary to have sex. What if I would instruct my SO to masturbate in front of me, is that not having sex? And what if we are separated for a period of time and we have heavy erotic talks over the phone and we both cum, does that mean that I did not just have sex? My body says otherwise, my heart says otherwise, and my heavy breathing definitely says otherwise.
I consider anything that gives me sexual arousal sex and that does not mean there has to be physical contact. I enjoy being driven by my partner, it gives me a sense of control and power and that excites me and I can imagine that it could actually lead to ejaculation.
My body has just told me that I have had sex, but I have had no physical contact. Should I now say that I did not have sex? BDSM is for a big part a mind game. Sex inside BDSM is also a mind game.
A domme who forces her slave to cum on her shoes and then orders her slave to lick it up has just had sex, mind sex, but still sex and the slave has had sex. To limit ourselves only to physical sex is to limit our fantasy, imagination, and sensations.
F.
I consider anything that gives me sexual arousal sex and that does not mean there has to be physical contact. I enjoy being driven by my partner, it gives me a sense of control and power and that excites me and I can imagine that it could actually lead to ejaculation.
My body has just told me that I have had sex, but I have had no physical contact. Should I now say that I did not have sex? BDSM is for a big part a mind game. Sex inside BDSM is also a mind game.
A domme who forces her slave to cum on her shoes and then orders her slave to lick it up has just had sex, mind sex, but still sex and the slave has had sex. To limit ourselves only to physical sex is to limit our fantasy, imagination, and sensations.
F.
lark sparrow
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I agree - we are all going to experience and define it differently, as it should be.
But, what I am noticing is that most people are defining sex through an ongoing, established relationship - wherein the lines of what is sex and what is not begin to blur in that sort of intimacy and knowledge.
What about the first contact with someone? Isn't there a bit more of a dividing line between when you (as a couple, or threesome, or gang bang or whatever) have had sex or not had sex?
If a sub is interested in a Dom and goes to his house to cook him dinner and he is sexually excited by her, and she by him but no actual physical contact has been made would it be likely that either would walk away saying, yes, we had sex?
This is a personal judgement, but for me if I top a guy for a limited scene and have him masturbate himself, I wouldn't say I have had sex with him - shared his sexual activity in directing masturbation, but not sex. If he is begging to please be touched, while he jacks off and I laugh, watch and continue to direct, I don't think he particularly considers the activity as having had sex with me either.
Masturbation is sex, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have had sex with someone else - if both consider it sex, great, it is a shared reality. I haven't even physically touched him in the above scenario, if manually masturbating him myself was the case, perhaps one of us has had sex, but has the other? Again, it's subjective. It seems to me there is some sort of dividing line though... if someone is attracted to someone else and masturbates with them in mind, does that then mean they have actually had sex with the person they desire? I think not.
Of course, what is sex, is different in relation to Mistress and our relationship - totally different context for me. So, I suppose some of this is about levels of shared intimacy and reality.
But, what I am noticing is that most people are defining sex through an ongoing, established relationship - wherein the lines of what is sex and what is not begin to blur in that sort of intimacy and knowledge.
What about the first contact with someone? Isn't there a bit more of a dividing line between when you (as a couple, or threesome, or gang bang or whatever) have had sex or not had sex?
If a sub is interested in a Dom and goes to his house to cook him dinner and he is sexually excited by her, and she by him but no actual physical contact has been made would it be likely that either would walk away saying, yes, we had sex?
This is a personal judgement, but for me if I top a guy for a limited scene and have him masturbate himself, I wouldn't say I have had sex with him - shared his sexual activity in directing masturbation, but not sex. If he is begging to please be touched, while he jacks off and I laugh, watch and continue to direct, I don't think he particularly considers the activity as having had sex with me either.
Masturbation is sex, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have had sex with someone else - if both consider it sex, great, it is a shared reality. I haven't even physically touched him in the above scenario, if manually masturbating him myself was the case, perhaps one of us has had sex, but has the other? Again, it's subjective. It seems to me there is some sort of dividing line though... if someone is attracted to someone else and masturbates with them in mind, does that then mean they have actually had sex with the person they desire? I think not.
Of course, what is sex, is different in relation to Mistress and our relationship - totally different context for me. So, I suppose some of this is about levels of shared intimacy and reality.
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catalina_francisco
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You are correct that sex in an established relationship is completely different than that of a beginning one.
People who are in a loving relationship with a steady partner tend to forget that there are relationships in which the roles between the partners are completely different.
The question of if a sub who has made dinner for a Dom, then would walk away saying she had sex or not is unanswerable. The majority would probably fully agree with you and not think they have had sex. But I am not part of the majority; I am an individual who follows my own rules and convictions.
Why is it that some persons get sexually aroused by trees or by eating shit or by licking the sole of women’s shoes? Fetish is for a part at least considering the unusual as sexually exciting, and yes for a part, that can mean having “sex” with things or people in a way that would not be considered by the majority as having sex.
When I take my whip and I whip my SO and the blood slowly drips from her back she might cum without me touching her. Does that mean that we have had no sex, just because there was no conventional intercourse or penetration?
In my wilder days I used to hunt for my pleasures in the pool of available women in clubs. In those days I have made women cum by whipping, by humiliation, by control, by power, and yes also by vaginal, anal and oral penetration and stimulation. Although it is not for me to answer for my previous sex partners I am sure that they went home thinking they’d had sex. Sex is not a physical state but a mental one.
F.
People who are in a loving relationship with a steady partner tend to forget that there are relationships in which the roles between the partners are completely different.
The question of if a sub who has made dinner for a Dom, then would walk away saying she had sex or not is unanswerable. The majority would probably fully agree with you and not think they have had sex. But I am not part of the majority; I am an individual who follows my own rules and convictions.
Why is it that some persons get sexually aroused by trees or by eating shit or by licking the sole of women’s shoes? Fetish is for a part at least considering the unusual as sexually exciting, and yes for a part, that can mean having “sex” with things or people in a way that would not be considered by the majority as having sex.
When I take my whip and I whip my SO and the blood slowly drips from her back she might cum without me touching her. Does that mean that we have had no sex, just because there was no conventional intercourse or penetration?
In my wilder days I used to hunt for my pleasures in the pool of available women in clubs. In those days I have made women cum by whipping, by humiliation, by control, by power, and yes also by vaginal, anal and oral penetration and stimulation. Although it is not for me to answer for my previous sex partners I am sure that they went home thinking they’d had sex. Sex is not a physical state but a mental one.
F.
catalina_francisco said:
i would hope this is not a total generalization, but perhaps a percentage one. i am very aware of other orders, structures, pecking orders, switches, reversals, etc. That does not mean i have to understand or agree. i need not approve in order to accept what is. i may view cyber/phone sex as nothing more than mutual masturbation due to the complete and total lack of physical contact with another person. However, i am very aware that others take this to a very deep and intimate level. i don't need to agree with them; i just need to not judge and therefore respect someone else's view that differs from my own. It does not mean i have forgotten what other structures are like. It means i don't agree, not that i lack the ability to understand. Such generalizations are potentially dangerous, i think.
The greatest gift i think we can give another person is to view their innermost selves/beauty and accept them for who they are, especially when they differ from who we know ourselves to be. i equate much to sexual arousal, sometimes too much. i get aroused by many things on many different levels, and it is not something i always enjoy. Sometimes it is damned irritating. A song can do it. A certain rhythm can do it. Being caught out in a rainstorm can do it. Excellent food can do it. The list goes on. IMO, that is arousal, though, foreplay, a build-up, a tease, a concentration of sensation that can be very powerful and moving.
i think for different people, it is experienced on different levels. It is both for me. There have been times i was so physically aroused, i was ready to cry to escape my own skin, but could not orgasm. There have been times my mind was so engaged, i could have sworn i did have an orgasm, but there was no physical release. It is all relative to each person and how they experience things. For some sex is nothing but a physical act/release. For others, it is the mind fucking they treasure the most. That *is* their release. And still for others, it is an odd combination of both. Whatever it is, i am glad they found it for themselves and that it works for them.
respectfully,
zanna
catalina_francisco
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I of course fully respect your individual view as you of course respect others.
F.
Hoc nomen meum verum non est.
F.
Hoc nomen meum verum non est.
lark sparrow
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catalina_francisco said:
In fetish there is usually an object of arousal and contact with said object (crap, shoes or trees in your example) - unless it is fantasy, which may include masturbation. Masturbation is a form of sex, but again, it generally eludes to physical sex with oneself. Separating it from the general term 'sex' and further clarified by the term sprung off of it - mental masturbation.
If you whip someone untill they cum there is physical contact. The whip is in your hand, you are directing it as an extension of yourself, and in an erotic context most likely. Some would say it is sex, others would not, but it most definitely includes physical contact and orgasms.
I am not trying to negatively judge - simply trying to come up with some sort of general idea of what sex is, and if there is a difference between sexual desire/arousal and sex itself, and then further clarifying the difference, if there is one, between masturbation and sex. All these terms, and no definitions.
We, collectively, make easy and quick reference to 'vanilla', but it seems the topic of defining 'sex' is unusually elusive. Sex is absolutely anything that anyone possibly wants it to be at any given time in any given way - alrighty then.
catalina_francisco
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If I can add another pearl of wisdom to this discussion ''
Websters dictionary defines sex as:
1 : either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male
2 : the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioural characteristics of living things that are involved in reproduction by two interacting parents and that distinguish males and females
3 a : sexually motivated phenomena or behaviour
b : SEXUAL INTERCOURSE
1. Heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS
2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis
Anything that anyone does which is sexually motivated is considered sex. This is not my definition simply the one that is mentioned in a dictionary.
I think the problem is that there two things getting mixed up here, one is sex and the other is sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse can be part of sex but it is not the only form of sex.
I can only agree with such a brilliant summary of the whole previous discussion.
F.
Lagunculae leydianae non accedunt.
'Websters dictionary defines sex as:
1 : either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male
2 : the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioural characteristics of living things that are involved in reproduction by two interacting parents and that distinguish males and females
3 a : sexually motivated phenomena or behaviour
b : SEXUAL INTERCOURSE
1. Heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis : COITUS
2 : intercourse involving genital contact between individuals other than penetration of the vagina by the penis
Anything that anyone does which is sexually motivated is considered sex. This is not my definition simply the one that is mentioned in a dictionary.
I think the problem is that there two things getting mixed up here, one is sex and the other is sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse can be part of sex but it is not the only form of sex.
I can only agree with such a brilliant summary of the whole previous discussion.
F.
Lagunculae leydianae non accedunt.
lark sparrow
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Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est.
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat.
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
Non calor sed umor est qui nobis incommodat.
catalina_francisco
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jon.hayworth
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And only Dog Latin at that - e.g "PANTORUM"
I think not try BRACCAE.
Incidentally BRACATUS meaning someone who wears trousers - a foreigner - was also used as a derogatory term meaning effeminate!!!!!
Now shall we all get back to communicating in our respective versions of English, instead of trying to demonstrate how smart or pathetic we are.
jon
lark sparrow
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You start first, Jon?
I had to look up F.'s inclusion of Latin, which was conveniently found on a page of Latin usage satire. Which is neither really smart nor pathetic, but gave me a little chuckle.
It's a very subjective topic, but interesting... I guess the 'sex is personal and anything you want it to be' is the round table conclusion. For me it's not so much the difference between sex and sexual intercourse, as it is the difference between what I consider 'sexual desire/arousal' and 'sexual/erotic activity' and actual 'sex'.
But you'll have to pardon me, as I am off for some sex (time for cooking and dinner).
I had to look up F.'s inclusion of Latin, which was conveniently found on a page of Latin usage satire. Which is neither really smart nor pathetic, but gave me a little chuckle.
It's a very subjective topic, but interesting... I guess the 'sex is personal and anything you want it to be' is the round table conclusion. For me it's not so much the difference between sex and sexual intercourse, as it is the difference between what I consider 'sexual desire/arousal' and 'sexual/erotic activity' and actual 'sex'.
But you'll have to pardon me, as I am off for some sex (time for cooking and dinner).
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