Debunking 6 common Isreali Myths

crystalhunting

Tallahastezzi Kaffirs!!!
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Feb 12, 2001
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Myth 1: There is no moral equivalence between suicide bombings on the one hand, and Israel's killing of Palestinians on the other

Myth 2: Israel's invasion of Palestinian cities and refugee camps is self-defence against suicide bombings

Myth 3: Arafat Refuses to Condemn Suicide Bombings in Arabic

Myth 4: Arafat has not done enough to stop terrorism

Myth 5: Arafat Spurned Barak's generous offer at Camp David and broke off negotiations with Israel

Myth 6: Arafat started the Intifada



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Suicide bombing is a reprehensible and unacceptable tactic. These attacks should stop immediately. What needs to be added, and what is almost always missing in American media commentary is a similar condemnation of Israel's deliberate targeting of Palestinian civilians.

Since the Palestinian uprising started in late September 2000, more than 1,500 Palestinians, and 400 Israelis have been killed (as of April 12, 2002), the vast majority on both sides being unarmed civilians. Most of the deadly violence against innocent civilians, therefore, has been committed by Israeli forces and has been directed at Palestinians.

Israel and its supporters claim that while Palestinian suicide bombers deliberately target Israeli civilians, Israel tries to avoid harming Palestinian civilians and that those who have died are "collateral damage." Hence, they argue, there is no moral equivalence between the killing of civilians by Israel and Palestinians. This defies both common sense and all the available evidence.

On the one hand, Israel wants us to believe that 400 of its own civilians were deliberately targeted, while more than three times as many dead Palestinians all somehow just got in the way of what Israel claims is its humane and disciplined army. It is, in essence, an argument that 1,500 people all died by accident.

Every human rights group that has examined Israel's practices has documented systematic and deliberate use of violence targeted at unarmed Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces. Physicians for Human Rights USA which investigated the high number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the first months of the Intifada, concluded that:

"the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF [Israel Defense Forces] use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing."

[Source: PHR USA, 22 November 2000]

This finding was based on "the totality of the evidence" the investigators collected about:

"the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths."

The findings of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch confirm this pattern. Israeli human rights group B'Tselem has documented and condemned the targeted use of violence against Palestinian civilians and has found evidence of systematic torture of thousands of Palestinian detainees, including children.

What has been confirmed by human rights groups has also been observed directly by journalists.

In October 2001, Harper's magazine published the "Gaza Diary" of journalist Chris Hedges. Hedges' entry for June 17, 2001 provides even more shocking evidence of the wanton and deliberate killing of Palestinian children by Israeli soldiers at Gaza's Khan Yunis refugee camp.

Hedges writes:

"I sit in the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes, momentarily defeated by the heat, the grit, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage. A friend of Azmi's brings me, on a tray, a cold glass of tart, red carcade juice."

"Barefoot boys, clutching kites made out of scraps of paper and ragged soccer balls, squat a few feet away under scrub trees. Men in flowing white or gray galabias -- homespun robes -- smoke cigarettes in the shade of slim eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs protruding, are tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels."

"It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker."

""Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!""

"I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's cunt!""

"The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come."

"A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."

"Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered -- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."

There can be no doubt that Israeli troops have been targeting innocent Palestinian civilians for death from the beginning of the uprising. This understanding was also reflected in UN Security Council Resolution 1322, passed on October 7, 2000, which

"Condemns acts of violence, especially the excessive use of force against Palestinians, resulting in injury and loss of human life."
In making the moral superiority claim, Israel's apologists are either shamelessly denying the irrefutable evidence cited above and are simply lying, or they are asserting that some forms of murder are morally superior to other forms of murder.

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The Israeli claim that its attacks on the Palestinians constitute "self defense" ignores the fact that its posture in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza Strip is, by definition, not defensive. Since 1967, Israel has maintained tens of thousands of heavily armed troops outside its borders for the purposes of stealing land from the Palestinians and forcing them to live as non-citizens under a foreign military dictatorship.

Seized Palestinian land has been used to build Jewish-only settlements linked by a network of Jewish-only roads, in flagrant violation of UN Security Council Resolutions and the Fourth Geneva Convention. This colonization is, and can only be, carried out by the violent suppression of any and all Palestinian resistance to the occupation.

Throughout the years of the "peace process" during the 1990s, Israel continued to construct settlements, doubling the number of settlers in the West Bank from about 100,000 to 200,000 according to the Israeli group "Peace Now." At least 34 new settlements have been built since Sharon took office.

The settlement colonization policy is, and can only be carried out by the violent suppression of any and all Palestinian resistance to the occupation. Throughout the years of the "peace process" Israel continued to construct settlements, doubling the number of settlers according to the Israeli group "Peace Now."

The entire international community has recognized that Israel's military occupation must end, and that its continuation, along with the settlement policy, and the massive repression they entail is a guarantee of continued bloodshed. Israel's brutal actions in the occupied territories are designed to consolidate and entrench the occupation and expand Israeli colonization, and are therefore, by definition, not defensive in nature.

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Even before Yasir Arafat's statement on 13 April 2002 condemning terrorism Arafat had repeatedly condemned suicide bombings both in Arabic and in English. Here are just two examples obtained from BBC monitoring.

1. On Palestinian TV, on 28 March 2002, at 20:08 GMT, Arafat stated in Arabic:

"On this occasion, I would like once again to reiterate our condemnation of yesterday's operation in Netanya, in which a number of innocent Israeli civilians were killed and wounded. This operation constitutes a deviation from our policy and a violation of our national and human values. I affirm our commitment to working toward an immediate cease-fire, as we informed General Zinni. We highly value his efforts. We informed him that we are ready for the immediate implementation of the Tenet's work plan without conditions, and without prejudicing any of its articles. Also, we have informed him of our readiness to implement the Mitchell Report recommendations in cooperation with the four-way US-Russian-European-UN committee headed by Gen. Zinni."

2. On December 16, 2001, in a speech on the occasion of Id al-Fitr in Ramallah (Gaza Palestine Satellite Channel Television, in Arabic, on 16 December 2001 at 16:00 GMT) Arafat stated in Arabic:

"Today, I emphasize once again the complete and immediate halt to all armed operations. Once again, I call for a complete halt to all operations, especially suicidal operations, which we have always condemned. We will punish all those who carry out and mastermind such operations. This also applies to the firing of mortar shells, which have no objective but to provide an excuse for the Israeli attacks on us, our people, our children, and our women. Any violation of this decision will be considered an attempt to harm the higher national interests of our people and of our Arab nation."

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The basic assumption behind the Israeli claim that Arafat "must do more" to stop attacks on Israel is that the primary role of the Palestinian Authority is not to work for the security and well-being of the Palestinian people, but rather to guarantee the security and safety of Israeli occupation forces, settlers and civilians, even while Israel rules millions of disenfranchised Palestinians, and continues to seize their land by force.

Even if such an arrangement were politically tenable, the realities of the past ten years made it impossible. The Palestinian Authority is not a sovereign state, but a quasi-authority which at the height of its power was only given control over 17.2% of the Israeli occupied West Bank (so called "Area A" under the Oslo and subsequent accords). Even Israel with all its military and economic might could not guarantee its own safety when it controlled every inch of the West Bank.

Over the past 18 months, Israel has systematically attacked all the facilities of the Palestinian Authority, including police stations, prisons and intelligence headquarters, and killed and assassinated many Palestinian security officers. Hence while crippling and killing the Palestinian security forces, Israel makes the ludicrous demand that these same forces go out and work on Israel's behalf.

Israel has further undermined its own claim that Arafat is "in control" of all the violence, by continuing to demand that he act while he is a prisoner of the Israelis in two rooms of his Ramallah headquarters, with no outside contact, no electricity and barely enough food and water.

The suicide bombings which have followed the brutal Israeli re-invasions of almost every major West Bank town since late March 2002 prove conclusively that there is no level of violence or ruthlessness that either Israel or the Palestinian Authority can employ that will eliminate those determined to answer the suffering of millions of Palestinian civilians under decades of Israeli military occupation by inflicting suffering on Israeli civilians.

The only way to end suicide bombings and other kinds of Palestinian violence is to end the extreme violence of the Israeli military occupation which produces and fuels both Palestinian resistance against the occupation forces and violent attacks against Israeli civilians. Absent a political process explicitly designed to end the occupation, there is little reason to believe that such attacks can or will end.

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One of the most powerful myths propagated in the US media today is that at the Camp David summit in July 2000, then Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak made an amazingly generous offer to the Palestinians that Yasir Arafat wantonly spurned, broke off negotiations and then launched a violent uprising against Israel. No element of this, the most cherished of media myths is true. In fact, Barak's offer was anything but generous. It was Israel that broke off the negotiations, and the committee headed by former US Senator George Mitchell found no evidence to back the Israeli claim that the Palestinian Authority had planned or launched the Intifada.

This myth was given life in large part by President Clinton who immediately after the Camp David summit broke his promise to Arafat that no side would be blamed for failure, and went on Israeli television declaring that while Barak made bold compromises for peace, Arafat has missed yet another opportunity. Let's go through the evidence bit by bit.

Barak's "generous" offer
What Barak offered at Camp David was a formula for continued Israeli military occupation under the name of a "state."

The proposal would have meant:

no territorial contiguity for the Palestinian state,
no control of its external borders,
limited control of its own water resources, and
no full Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory as required by international law.

In addition, the Barak plan would have :


included continued Israeli military control over large segments of the West Bank, including almost all of the Jordan Valley;
codified the right of Israeli forces to be deployed in the Palestinian state at short notice;
meant the continued presence of fortified Israeli settlements and Jewish-only roads in the heart of the Palestinian state; and
required nearly 4 million Palestinian refugees to relinquish their fundamental human rights in exchange for compensation to be paid not by Israel but by the "international community."

At best, Palestinians could expect a kind of super-autonomy within a "Greater Israel", rather than independence, and the devolution of some municipal functions in the parts of Jerusalem inhabited by Palestinians, under continued overall Israeli control.

See maps showing what the Israeli proposals would have looked like in reality on this site.

John Mearsheimer, professor in the department of political science at the University of Chicago, recognized the limitations of what Palestinians were being asked to accept as a final settlement, concluding that

"it is hard to imagine the Palestinians accepting such a state. Certainly no other nation in the world has such curtailed sovereignty."

[Source: "The Impossible Partition," New York Times, January 11, 2001]

The reality was far from the wild claims routinely made on the editorial pages of American papers that Barak had offered the Palestinians, 95, 97 or even 100% of the occupied West Bank. Barak himself wrote in a New York Times Op-ed on 24 May 2001 that his vision was for

"a gradual process of establishing secure, defensible borders, demarcated so as to encompass more than 80 percent of the Jewish settlers in several settlement blocs over about 15 percent of Judea and Samaria, and to ensure a wide security zone in the Jordan Valley."

[Source: "Building a Wall Against Terror," New York Times, 24 May 2001].

In other words, if Barak intended to keep 15 percent of "Judea and Samaria" (the West Bank), he could not have offered the Palestinians more than 85 percent.

No one can seriously talk about Israel being willing to end its settlement policy if 80 percent of its settlers would have remained in place.

Robert Malley who was Clinton's special assistant for Arab-Israeli affairs, participated in the Camp David negotiations. In an important article entitled "Fictions About the Failure At Camp David " published in the New York Times on July 8, 2001, Malley added his own, insider's challenge to the Camp David myth. Not only did he agree that Barak's offer was far from ideal, but made the additional point that Arafat had made far more concessions than anyone gave him credit for. Malley wrote:

"Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises."

Malley rightly concluded that, "If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality."

The negotiations continued
While it is true that the July 2000 Camp David summit ended without agreement, the negotiations did not end. They restarted and continued until Barak broke them off in January 2001. Since then Israel has refused to enter political negotiations with the Palestinians.

On 19 December 2000, six months after Camp David, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators returned to Washington and continued with negotiations. These negotiations were based on a set of proposals by President Clinton which went beyond Barak's offer of July 2000, but still fell short of minimum Palestinian expecations. Nevertheless, the Palestinians went on with the talks.

By some accounts these were proving fruitful. The Los Angeles Times reported on 22 December 2000, that:

"Amid signs that the two sides appear to be edging toward some sort of compromise on the emotional issue of Jerusalem, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators worked through the start of the Jewish Hanukkah holiday Thursday expressing a rare shared optimism."

[Source: Los Angeles Times, December 22, 2000. "Hopeful mood fuels talks on Mideast peace; Negotiations: Israelis, Palestinians work through Jewish holiday as signs surface of a compromise."]

In January 2001, the talks moved to Taba, Egypt, where they reportedly continued to make progress. They broke off at the end of January, and were due to resume but Barak canceled a planned meeting with Arafat. Shortly thereafter, Barak lost the election to Ariel Sharon, and the talks have never resumed.

The New York Times reported on January 28, 2001:

"Senior Israeli and Palestinian officials concluded nearly a week of stop-and-start negotiations in Taba, Egypt, tonight by saying jointly that they have "never been closer to reaching" a final peace accord but lacked sufficient time to conclude one before the Israeli elections on Feb. 6..... At a joint news conference in Taba, Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami of Israel called the two-way talks, from which the Americans were conspicuously absent, "the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations in this phase of the peace process." He said the two sides hoped to pick up where they left off after the elections -- although his boss, Mr. Barak, is expected to lose."

Source: New York Times, January 28, 2001, "Mideast Talks End With Gain But No Accord."

So how is it then that all these commentators and Israeli officials continue to deny that talks which the Israeli foreign minister at the time called "the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations," never took place? How is it that so many continue to claim that it was the Palestinians who walked away from the bargaining table when it was Israel that stopped the talks and refuses to resume them?

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Although the Camp David summit ended almost three months before the beginning of the Intifada, and negotiations continued between the Israelis and Palestinians even as violence raged, many pro-Israeli commentators maintain that Arafat launched the Intifada as a direct response to the Camp David proposals, just because he prefers war to peace! This is belied by all the evidence.

The Intifada was a reaction to years of worsening conditions in the occupied territories during the period of the so-called peace process, when Israel doubled the number of settlers on occupied Palestinian land, and tightened its noose around the Palestinian population. But the spark was Ariel Sharon's visit to the Haram Al-Sharif with 1,000 armed men on 28 September 2000, a deliberate desecration of a holy site whose purpose was to send a message that Israel would always control the Palestinians by brute force.

The Palestinian protests that broke out in reaction to Sharon's incursion included stone-throwing but absolutely no firearms. The Israeli response, however, was lethal.

The New York Times reported on 30 September 2000 that:

"Four Palestinians were killed at Haram al Sharif, known to Jews as Temple Mount, in a second day of rioting that began when Ariel Sharon, the rightist opposition leader, visited the Muslim compound on Thursday to assert Jewish claims to the site. Wearing full riot gear, Israeli police officers today stormed the Muslim area, where they rarely set foot, to disperse Palestinian youths who emerged from Friday prayer services to stone first a police post at the Moghrabi Gate and then Jewish worshipers at the Western Wall."

"Dr. Khaled Qurei, director of the Makhased [sic: Maqassad] Hospital on the Mount of Olives, said the hospital had treated more than 150 men, women and youths, many of whom were wounded by rubber bullets and some by live ammunition. The Israeli police denied that live bullets had been used."

Source: "Battle at Jerusalem Holy Site Leaves 4 Dead and 200 Hurt," New York Times, 30 September 2000.

The report did not contain even an allegation by the Israelis that any Palestinian had used firearms. But Israel's killing of unarmed protestors sparked wider protests throughout the occupied territories. Within weeks, dozens of Palestinians, almost all unarmed civilians, both inside Israel and in the occupied territories had been killed.

Despite the clear chronological order of the events, Israel and its supporters in the US media continue to maintain that Arafat and the Palestinian Authority launched the Intifada.

The high-profile investigative committee headed by former US Senator George Mitchell stated in its final report that:

"The [Government of Israel] asserts that the immediate catalyst for the violence was the breakdown of the Camp David negotiations on July 25, 2000 and the "widespread appreciation in the international community of Palestinian responsibility for the impasse." In this view, Palestinian violence was planned by the PA leadership, and was aimed at "provoking and incurring Palestinian casualties as a means of regaining the diplomatic initiative."

The report continued:

"In their submissions, the parties traded allegations about the motivation and degree of control exercised by the other. However, we were provided with no persuasive evidence that the Sharon visit was anything other than an internal political act; neither were we provided with persuasive evidence that the PA planned the uprising."

"Accordingly, we have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence at the first opportunity; or to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the GOI to respond with lethal force."

Finally, the Mitchell committee agreed that:

"The Sharon visit did not cause the "Al-Aqsa Intifada." But it was poorly timed and the provocative effect should have been foreseen; indeed it was foreseen by those who urged that the visit be prohibited. More significant were the events that followed: the decision of the Israeli police on September 29 to use lethal means against the Palestinian demonstrators; and the subsequent failure, as noted above, of either party to exercise restraint."

[Source: SHARM EL-SHEIKH FACT-FINDING COMMITTEE FINAL REPORT, April 30, 2001]

Despite the report's effort to lay blame on both sides, and thus appear even-handed, it is clear that on the one-hand Israeli violence fuelled and led to the spread of the uprising, and that there is no reason to accept Israel's claims that the Palestinian Authority planned or started the uprising.

Ali Abunimah & Hussein Ibish
14 April 2002. Last updated 3 May 2002.

Ali Abunimah is one of the four founders of The Electronic Intifada. Hussein Ibish is communications director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.


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FURTHER READING:

Coverage trends: Ultimate hypocricy: Israel's targeting of Palestinians spun as part of the "War Against Terrorism"
Coverage trends: Misrepresentation of Barak's offer at Camp David as "generous" and "unprecedented"
Action items: Israel's "smoking gun" a damp firecracker: Israel's crude attempt to 'link Arafat to terror' backfires
Article: Was Arafat the Problem? by Robert Wright, Slate, Thursday, April 18, 2002, at 4:14 PM PT.
Historical myths: Check the main ones out.


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CH
 
What contribution have the Palestinians made to the world? Will the world be any poorer if they are pushed completely out of the area. After all that's what they want to do to Israel, so they should be prepared to accept the same treatment. Good riddance to them. This is becoming a more popular view across the Western world, post Sept 11. A right wing Politician gets twenty per cent of the vote in France. Far right councillors are elected in areas coping with Asian enclaves, in Britain.

Where are the positive Arab role models? Any moderate Arab peace makers/ statesmen? Or do they all always wear military uniform, give clenched fist salutes? Talk of victory, whatever their circumstances?


All the talk of Civillian death is pointless.Guerrillas don't wear uniform, so how can you tell whether they were combatants or byestanders.

The whole Palestininian area seems as though it is in anarchy. Private mercenary groups funded by other Arab states, hiding among the civillians. Using the camps as launching pads for attacks on Israeli citizens.

Sure it's messy, but Irael like any democratic country has the right to protect it's citizens when it's attacked.
 
Myrrdin said:
What contribution have the Palestinians made to the world?

*smacks head* gee and I was worried for a moment there.



Anyone care to bring the IRA into this discussion?
 
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
Someone ha s a sticky keyboard. Stop jerking off at the computer and engage your brain.
 
Juspar Emvan said:
Someone ha s a sticky keyboard. Stop jerking off at the computer and engage your brain.
This is a never ending argument. Many of us on both sides of the issue will never change what they believe no matter what is written and posted. All I know is that I've watched this mess for 35 years or more. I remember well the Massacre at Munich brought to us by Chairmen Arafat, I remember when the Jordanian Army massacred 1000s of Palestinians in 1970 when the same Arafat was causing trouble in Jordan. So, while I feel somewhat sad for Palestinian people,I believe Arafat to be the cause of much of the suffering the Palestinian people endure.
 
Debunking a common myth:

'Isreal' is actually spelled I-S-R-A-E-L.
 
Quoted from:

Myrrdin

What contribution have the Palestinians made to the world?
A damn site more than the jews have. They helped the Allies win the First World War for a start. Didn't see many Jews around then did we eh?

After all that's what they want to do to Israel.

Where have the Palestinians said that's what they want to do? And please don't come back and quote that much hackney PLO Charter - that Statement of Intent. It meant nothing when it was proclaimed and it means even less now.

This is becoming a more popular view across the Western world, post Sept 11. A right wing Politician gets twenty per cent of the vote in France. Far right councillors are elected in areas coping with Asian enclaves, in Britain.

Bollocks. You take a couple of warning shots to the main stream parties of the UK, France and Holland by voters who know they can do that without really letting the right wing retards in and you have the fucking cheek to say that's what the majority want. So I can safely assume that Le Pen is the President of France now can I. (I haven't looked at the results yet)

Where are the positive Arab role models?

Where are the jewish ones? Apart from Peres and a few around him I can't think of many more. And even he works for Sharon's Zionist Government.

Talk of victory, whatever their circumstances?

Do they? I must have missed that bit of news. Oh you mean 40 odd years ago when they were ar war with Israel, a war sarted by Israel. Oh, I see...

All the talk of Civillian death is pointless.Guerrillas don't wear uniform, so how can you tell whether they were combatants or byestanders.

Based on that premise we should have gone in and massacred most of the population of Ireland.

The whole Palestininian area seems as though it is in anarchy. Private mercenary groups funded by other Arab states, hiding among the civillians. Using the camps as launching pads for attacks on Israeli citizens.

The whole Palestinian area is under jewish occupation. How can they be in anarchy. And if Wales was occupied by England and you and yours surrounded by tanks, bombed by planes, shelled by ships and shot at by soldiers I would think that you'd want to do something about it as well...

but Irael like any democratic country has the right to protect it's citizens when it's attacked.

Not when they are the aggressors. And I'm not talking about the present killings but those little settler enclaves that have been creeping like a swarm of killer bees over the face of Palestine since the beginning.

Israel gave up any rights to expect support for self protection when that first little farm first appeared. Now of course the Zionists are proclaiming the killing of settlers as just another excuse to destroy Palestine. If I didn't know better I would have said the settler policy was set up on purpose to provide Israel with a reason...

ppman
 
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bored1 said:
I remember well the Massacre at Munich brought to us by Chairmen Arafat

You'll remenber also then that until Munich the world knew nothing about the plight of the Palestinians and the existence of the refugee camps which housed an entire nation.

I don't condone what happened, there were better ways to achieve their objective, but it brought Palestine firmly to the top of the Global Agenda.

ppman
 
p_p_man said:


You'll remenber also then that until Munich the world knew nothing about the plight of the Palestinians and the existence of the refugee camps which housed an entire nation.

I don't condone what happened, there were better ways to achieve their objective, but it brought Palestine firmly to the top of the Global Agenda.

ppman

That begs the question, pp! If there are better ways to achieve their objective, why the hell haven't they implemented it?

And there objective is..........?
 
miles

Don't waste your breath here, my friend.

This shit is no more than inflamatory Palestinian propaganda. Facts are distorted at every opportunity.

Just need to label it as such and move on.

CH, I gave you credit for more intelligence than this. :(
 
Bored1

bored1 said:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Excellent display of how you assimilate actual data.

The best example of your knowledge on the situation. Do you remember the massacre of 29 Arabs while they prayed by Baruch Goldstein? That's a bigger body count than in Munich but I'll wager you conveneintly forgot that one, eh?

Yogi....you dispute the validity of what CH posted? On what grounds? It doesn't support your opinion so it is automatically just propaganda? Are you a resident of the West Bank or Gaza? You think the Israeli's aren't capable of propaganda?
 
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YogiBare

But pp provides so much entertainment. He's our comic relief.
 
miles said:


That begs the question, pp! If there are better ways to achieve their objective, why the hell haven't they implemented it?

And there objective is..........?

What I always thought the IRA should have done years before they did it and what Osman bin Laden attempted in New York. Hit the financial centres of the people you are fighting. Nothing hurts more than when your pocket is the target.

Once the IRA bombed the Baltic Exchange in the City of London moves began which have ended in the peace process. It took years though.

With bin Laden, if he was behind the 11 September attrocity, I think he achieved more than he expected. And he has no real, concrete objective anyway. Although the Palestinians are used as an excuse nobody really believes that. He's just a terrorist of the Bahder Meinhoff mould.

Why the Palestinian terrorists haven't followed the same tactics beats me. Maybe they can't get close enough. After all the City of London was an open area and a lorry fully of explosives did the damage. Israel with it's ring of protective steel would be a very hard nut to crack. And a couple of suicide bombers wouldn't be able to do enough damage.

And if you don't know what the Palestinian objective is by now, heaven help[ us all..

ppman
 
ppman

And if you don't know what the Palestinian objective is by now, heaven help[ us all..

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I'll ask you again:

In your opinion, what is the objective of Arafat and the Palestinan terorists?
 
Re: Palestine?

lostinn said:
I've been reading up on this lately because I pried myself on knowing at least a little bit something about most things. But, try as I might, I can find no information on the nation of Palestine. When exactly did Palestine exist?

Another question. The historic region of Palestine is made up about 5% of what is now (and has been a number of times in the past) Israel. The remaining 95% is mostly Jordanian territory. When are the Jordanians planning on giving this territory back?

Finally, since Palestine has been ruled and occupied by, oh, 20 or 30 different nationalities over the last 3000 years, who exactly is a Palestinian?


Here...have a read of this.

The Origins of the Palestine-Israeli Conflict

:)
 
Earth to ppman:

Okay, I'll rephrase the question again.

In your personal opinion, in your own words, what do you believe is the objective of Arafat and his band of merry men?
 
Re: Bored1

Thumper said:
[Yogi....you dispute the validity of what CH posted? On what grounds? It doesn't support your opinion so it is automatically just propaganda? Are you a resident of the West Bank or Gaza? You think the Israeli's aren't capable of propaganda? [/B]
Hi Thumper. Yes, I do question the validity of a lot, though not all, of it. First, let's consider the source of the material:
Ali Abunimah & Hussein Ibish
14 April 2002. Last updated 3 May 2002.

Ali Abunimah is one of the four founders of The Electronic Intifada. Hussein Ibish is communications director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.
When you read the material there is no pretense made of objectivity. Nor should there be. Everyone has the right to make their case in the form most favorable to their point of view.

No, something is not propoganda because it doesn't support my point of view. And yes, the Israelis are capable of putting out propoganda, too. And Israeli propoganda would make one think that this whole thing is the Palestinian's fault, that they behave barbarically, and that they have no legitimate rights here. Just as this trash makes the case against Israel.

Any fair appraisal of both the hisory and the current abominal situation would aportion responsibility to both sides and legitimate claims to both sides. Nobody's slate is clean here. It's a very factually and morally complex situation.

To embrace this cynically slanted treatise as truth reflects either tremendous bias or embarassing gulibility.
 
Re: Re: Re: Palestine?

lostinn said:


Ok, so that answered exactly none of my questions. Thanks ppman.

Are you sure you read it and not just looked at the front cover?

ppman
 
Re: Re: Bored1

YogiBare said:
Any fair appraisal of both the hisory and the current abominal situation would aportion responsibility to both sides and legitimate claims to both sides.

How do you figure that out.

The Palestinians had been in their land for over 1200 years with nary a Jew in sight. After approximately a 2000 year absence from the area Jews began returning in the late 1890's.

Like most people the Palestinians had no objection but when the Jewish immigration became a flood they became worried.

"Britain's high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said 'all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators'...The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

To me the creators of the problem are the Zionists. You have a problem on a similar but much minor scale at the moment with the number of Hispanics in the USA and especially Cubans in Miami.

As a spokesman of the citizens of Miami once said. They had no objections the Cubans living there in the early days. People even felt sorry for them. But now they've increased in such numbers that to all intents and purposes they now control the city, all feelings of pity have gone out of the door.

ppman
 
Re: Earth to ppman:

miles said:
Okay, I'll rephrase the question again.

In your personal opinion, in your own words, what do you believe is the objective of Arafat and his band of merry men?

And my reply is still the same.

Don't try to be too clever miles.

It doesn't suit you.

ppman
 
Re: miles

YogiBare said:
Don't waste your breath here, my friend.

This shit is no more than inflamatory Palestinian propaganda. Facts are distorted at every opportunity.

Just need to label it as such and move on.

CH, I gave you credit for more intelligence than this. :(



Did YOU bother to actually read it?...This article had facts to back it up...unlike most "propaganda"...NY times and such articles..last I checked they weren't illegitimate...


Besides....EVERY LOUSY DAY...I see some post or another that gives "propaganda" of the other side....and portrays all arabs as some form of Hannibal Lector,and that the Isrealis are the grand good guys,

Thats not the case....both sides are doing horrible things..but americans choose to only see one side of the equation,and tell themselves with full confidence and plenty of self denial that they are backing a compassionate great side,The reality is that we are backing a dicktatorship,that is systematically trying to perform their own version of "Ethnic Cleansing" on what is left of the Palestinian population.

I've been to Isreal...if you are a Muslim or arab...you are third class citizen in Isreal proper....and a nonperson if you are a Palestinian,devoid of any real oppurtunity or human rights.


You question my intelliegence?..well I question yours...can you even attempt to look at the situation without rosy colored glasses?I have been forced to that,to question all my beliefs and ideas about my ancestry and try to define the contradictions.


I am an arab...and a Muslim....and I'm american.

I am not antisemitic...to be antisemitic...you have to hate Hebrews and arabs...we are both in that family,and I don't hate myself or anyone.

I have no problem with the idea or application of an Isreali state...but I do have a problem with disenfranchiseing the native population at the exspense of the newcomer.

There is a saying about Arafat in Arabic..in English it is Alemiq dah yuyfsh.It means ....He is an ingrate.I hear it often when I go to the Majid.


So think what you want...and live in your world of Denial...I refuse to.



CH
 
Crazies of the world unite! Like on this page (I include myself of course). There have been Jews and Palestinians in Palestine. They often lived in peace in fact. As to whether or not the Palestinians ever had a state, its beside the point. Did that give Americans the right to take slaves and kill native americans. No!. Does being a state justifiy the United States overthrowing democratically elected states in Iran, Guatemala, invade the Phillipines and so on? No. Remeber we gave the world the Shah of Iran who was so vicious he gave us Khomeni. Statehood hardly sanctions oppression and nothing sanctions the killing of innocents. Despite what a previous poster said. The logic some of you have used is precisely the same as the South Africans who used to justify apartheid.

Any dispassionate reading of the history would tell you they have been screwed and oppressed for quite a while. Same with the Jews. The forties just made the West guilty about what they did had covertly done for so many years.

Apportioning blame is rather silly on this issue. What both sides have to do is accept responisibility for what they have done.

It used to be the case that one Israeli was killed for every 300 Palestinians. No its about 1 for every three. The Palestinians just have explosives and pistols to fight, while the Israelis (and some of them consider Sharon to be the war criminal he is, remember that an Israeli court judged him guilty for the massacres in Lebanon), have an army.

It used to be the case that it was hard to find suicide bombers to blow themselves up -- now its easy.

In Israel its okay to torture suspected terrorists.

Menachem Begin ( a former Prime Minister of Israel and terrorist --he blew up the King David Hotel when they were still pissed at the British) once said that he would find a 'final solution' to the Palestinian problem.

Of course Palestinians have done nasty things. We know that. So have the Israeli's. Finding the way to get past that is the real trick.

I bring all this stuff up to suggest that maybe the Palestinians have an actual beef and the Israelis have actual worries. We don't have to pick sides, but we have to stop justifying the violence of either side. The only side you have to pick here is the side of peace.
 
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