RJMasters
workaholic
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2004
- Posts
- 4,298
Part I
I am sure many of you know by now, I enjoy challenging threads. Threads that open a discussion of a topic with the hope to challenge both yours and my thinking, and give us a chance to share and grow. Some may be saying OMG he’s at it again, pleeaasee make him stop(heehee). Just hit the “next thread link and problem solved
. For those who are interested, this is my second serious topic thread. I am looking forward to learning from your contributions and hope you enjoy mine as well. I will warn you this is a long one, I spent this weekend hand writing it.
----
I suppose the first part of this discussion should make an attempt to first determine how you view “guilt” and weather guilt is a positive or negative thing in terms for growth of a person.
I view guilt as a negative thing when it comes to growth and really has only one redeeming quality about it(play on words intended). The only redeeming quality of guilt I see is its ability to gnaw at a person’s conscious for the purpose of communicating your not at peace about something you did, said, or thought.
There are many ways people set out to deal with guilt, many of them IMO are more harmful than just dealing honestly with the root or cause of the guilt. One of the worst way I see people dealing with guilt is denial. Denial of guilt can be something as simple as “its not that bad” –to- changing their view of right and wrong in order to make the offense null and void. The latter of the two is very popular in today’s modern thinking. Instead of admitting some things are right and wrong(for themselves), its easier to erase the their OWN moral lines of right and wrong so that, everything is peachy-kine. Sense I don’t want to turn this thread into a useless moral debate about right and wrong, I will confine the context about dealing with right and wrong within the scope of a D/s relationship.
As an example:
I think we can all agree at least for this discussion, an abusive Dom/me or disobedient submissive is wrong.
I wrote all the above to simply ask this:
~When a clear wrong has occurred in a D/s relationship and the person who committed the wrong knows it and feels guilty about it, how does/should that person deal with it? Or to personalize the question, if you feel guilty about something you did that you know is wrong, how do you deal with it?
For the Dom/me guilt poses some serious inner conflicts in how to deal with their guilt. How do you maintain your role or mental image of dominance in the relationship and be apologetic, penitent, or even seriously contrite of heart?
The submissive faces another sets of problems in that they don’t want to disappoint their Dom/me or may be fearful of the consequences, and so they absorb the hurt suffering quietly with their guilt.
I have stated that guilt is a negative; I probably should have said; guilt that is not dealt with, is a negative. Guilt in itself is actual a good thing in that it can teach us our limits, and warn us when we are not at peace about someting we have said, done or thought.
What are some negative effects of not dealing with guilt for both a Dom/me or submissive?
The thing that stands out in my memory is a time I didn’t deal with an issue I felt guilty about. The situation was about a limit I broke of my sub’s without her knowledge. Part of our contract had exclusiveness to each other in it. One time I was online while my sub was away for an extended period of time and I put myself in a situation which lead to breaking that trust. At first I tried to rationalize the guilt away with lame excuses such as: "I am the Dom I will do what I damn well please" and I tried "it was a stupid mistake and she doesn’t have to know". The results were devastating. By not dealing with my guilt, it added even more hurt to the situation. Though my sub didn’t know anything about it, the guilt was affecting me, and I found myself trying to avoid her. Avoidance is the key word here. I was avoiding my guilt and my neglecting my sub, and all in all I was avoiding my own dominant nature by not having the balls or fucking decency to face up to responsibility. She began to hurt and doubt herself because I was neglecting her, which from what I understand is possibly one of the worst punishments you can give to a sub. By not dealing with my guilt, I was destroying something very special to me/us. I was afraid of the consequences by telling her. I thought it would kill her, and I didn’t want her to take back the gift of herself to me. I am glad I finally came to my senses and realized I had to deal with this, even if it meant she would leave. It was so unfair that she was being abused for my own guilty conscious and one way or another I had to put a stop to that. I told her, and yes it was all bad and more, but in the end we managed to put things back together. I am still not proud of what I did. I came to realize we all make wrong decisions at times in our lives, what separates those who are destroyed by those bad choices, and those who are survivors is how you face up to them and go on living life and learn from the experience.
----
Part II
From here I would like to introduce to you some of my thoughts on how to deal with guilt. I simply call it the “Cleansing Process”. I myself have problems with following some checklist and step-by-step program(not knocking them as they do have their place and can be very helpful) when it comes to dealing with matters of a person’s heart and spirit. So please do not mistake how the information is presented as step1 then 2 then 3 etc… however it is the only way I know how to relate what I have to share in an organized way. The intent is to understand the process as a whole and why each part is important. Also, when reading through it, keep in mind there is not time limit set for any of these steps. The whole process could take 15 mins from start to finish, or it could take a lifetime.
The Cleansing Process:
Step 1 – Admitting you have guilt.
The idea here is regardless of what morality others may hold, TO YOU, what YOU did was wrong and you have real guilt about it inside you. You know when you have taken this step when you admit the pain you feel, and are sorry(an attitude or sincere regret).
This first step is so important. Cleansing is about you. Cleansing must first start with being honest with yourself. Denial and avoidance are clear indications that you have not taken this step about your guilt.
Now as important as step 1 is in beginning the process of cleansing, no one ever accomplished anything from just feeling sorry for them-selves. I don’t know about you, but whinnie baby subs turn my stomach, and a whinnie Dom/me? Yuk sums it up nicely. Both often need a good kick in the arse to wake the hell up lol.
So after taking the important step 1, what’s next?
Well the details and actions vary depending on if you are a PLY or ply, but regardless of being top or bottom here are what I believe are steps for continuing the cleansing process. In this order:
::Think, Understand, Take action, Wait, Repay, and Forgive::
Step 2 – To Think About the Cause of Your Guilt
Think about what happened and why. There was a reason you did what you did and no matter how ugly of a truth you have to face about yourself, it is important. This is a chance for you to ask yourself why? Often in this spot, people can look back into their past and see a pattern of behavior or a “cycle of destruction” as I call it. This also may be a time when you discover a weakness about yourself that you never knew existed.
Step 3 – Understand
You may or may not be able to fully get to the bottom of why you did this. It is important to try step 2, but what is as equally important is that you do not get stuck on step 2 if you can’t figure it out. What you need to understand is that you are dealing with guilt you have now in the here and the present. So you need to understand what your sorry for.
[side story]Once I broke something of my mom’s that she treasured. I remember saying, “I’m sorry”, but she then asked me what was I sorry for…and I knew she wasn’t just talking about breaking some object.[end story] Understand that being sorry, for spilt mik isn’t the goal. What is the goal, is being sorry for the hurt your wrongdoing inflicted on another and upon yourself. Only then will you be ready to accept the consequences of the hurt you caused.
Step 4 – Take Action
Up to this point you have been doing some serious soul searching, and now it is time to act on the conclusions. It time to make an apology. Weather the person is aware or unaware of the wrong, or even if no one else is involved, it is time to open your mouth and speak truthfully your heart. State clearly the wrong, then make an apology for the hurt this wrong caused, and express the willingness to accept the consequence(s).
Step 5 - Wait
Be prepared in advance for what could happen next. Often it takes time for another person to digest what has happened and evaluate the hurt they feel, or even how deeply the hurt goes. This is what I call the time of grieving. This whole time you have been dealing with your guilt and now you are ready to be free of it, however your not out of the guilt dog-house yet. You owe consideration to the person you hurt and give them some time to think, understand and grieve. This also holds true for you. You may have already did all the thinking and understanding you need to, but now its time give yourself a chance to grieve properly. Also, just a warning, sometimes the other person at this moment may display strong emotions from anger to tears, Just because they do not move immediately to steps 6&7 doesn’t mean they reject your apology. It just means they are devastated by what they just learned and they need time. You may even pre-lude your apology with something like, you may need some time to think about what I am about to share.
Step 6 – Repay
There is a good thread in the library section by Miss Taken on the subject of discipline –vs- punishment which is good reading about this. The idea here is that you have prepared yourself to do whatever you can to right a wrong. You don’t get a say here at this point. By hurting the other person, only they can state what they need to be able to feel this hurt has been healed. Often, there is not much one can do. Many times, it requires the person who was hurt to be strong enough and bigger than the hurt they received. It is often through the heartfelt apology you offer, and the love that is shared for each other that gives them the power and strength to be able to take the next step
Step 7 - Forgiveness
You must accept the other person’s forgiveness and equally as important forgive yourself. Accepting forgiveness is not just saying forget the whole thing. Accepting forgiveness is actually making an acknowledgement and making a promise. What do I mean by that? It means when you accept a person’s forgiveness you acknowledge that they are reaffirming their love and trust in you, and the promise you give back, is that you will do all you can to prevent from doing this wrong that hurt them. This is the moment when you feel the guilt disappear and you are cleansed and free(can I get an amen lol).
I know this post is long but I would be amiss if I didn’t answer the question I know some may be asking, what if the other person doesn’t forgive or you can’t forgive yourself?
I’m glad you asked
Part of preparing yourself to live with the consequences is unfortunately accepting the possibility that you will not be forgiven and the relationship you are now in, will be over. Very scary thought indeed and is why many refuse to deal with the guilt out of fear. However, consider the alternative. The relationship you are in will now be partially built on a lie or deception, you are constantly in anxiety over the guilt you feel and you have closed doors to growth within yourself. As bad a facing the consequences of a relationship ending, I am sure many can testify as to the pain and agony of not dealing with guilt.
If it is the case that the other person cannot forgive or that you cannot forgive yourself, the following may be of little compensation for you. However, they are true and factual and gives you at least something to wrap your hands around and hold to, to endure the time of pain ahead.
1. You are a human being and you have made mistakes and bad choices before this happened, and will make more before your time in this life is over.
2. Your sorrow over what you did was real. The sincerity of sorrow over the hurt you caused was genuine and you offered the apology in hopes to make right the wrong. You even were willing to repay what ever you could to make the situation right. The pain of the person not giving forgiveness and leaving is not the same pain you apologized for(even though it feels like one big hurt). It is important to separate the guilt from the consequential pain. You may never be at peace with the consequential pain, but you can still forgive yourself and be free of the guilt from the act you did. This is about accepting blame. In the short term it may not mean much, but later down the road, you will be able to look back and know you did the best you could do to make it right, and the other person is responsible for choosing to end the relationship.
(I hope in the future to have a thread dedicated to the topic of forgiveness.)
One thing I encourage Dom/mes is to incorporate something in training their subs, is to make a way for their subs to come to them and be cleansed of guilt. The method is not important in the how its done, but what is important is that the sub knows if they come to you in “this manner” you will promise to hear what they have to say. This is not a get out of jail free card nor are any free rides promised here, it just means you are providing a way for them to approach you with some guilt they are dealing with, which is always preferable than them suffering quietly without your knowledge. Having something in place allows you to get involve early on, before letting things go to the point where drastic actions are taken. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Peace to you all
RJ
I am sure many of you know by now, I enjoy challenging threads. Threads that open a discussion of a topic with the hope to challenge both yours and my thinking, and give us a chance to share and grow. Some may be saying OMG he’s at it again, pleeaasee make him stop(heehee). Just hit the “next thread link and problem solved
. For those who are interested, this is my second serious topic thread. I am looking forward to learning from your contributions and hope you enjoy mine as well. I will warn you this is a long one, I spent this weekend hand writing it.----
I suppose the first part of this discussion should make an attempt to first determine how you view “guilt” and weather guilt is a positive or negative thing in terms for growth of a person.
I view guilt as a negative thing when it comes to growth and really has only one redeeming quality about it(play on words intended). The only redeeming quality of guilt I see is its ability to gnaw at a person’s conscious for the purpose of communicating your not at peace about something you did, said, or thought.
There are many ways people set out to deal with guilt, many of them IMO are more harmful than just dealing honestly with the root or cause of the guilt. One of the worst way I see people dealing with guilt is denial. Denial of guilt can be something as simple as “its not that bad” –to- changing their view of right and wrong in order to make the offense null and void. The latter of the two is very popular in today’s modern thinking. Instead of admitting some things are right and wrong(for themselves), its easier to erase the their OWN moral lines of right and wrong so that, everything is peachy-kine. Sense I don’t want to turn this thread into a useless moral debate about right and wrong, I will confine the context about dealing with right and wrong within the scope of a D/s relationship.
As an example:
I think we can all agree at least for this discussion, an abusive Dom/me or disobedient submissive is wrong.
I wrote all the above to simply ask this:
~When a clear wrong has occurred in a D/s relationship and the person who committed the wrong knows it and feels guilty about it, how does/should that person deal with it? Or to personalize the question, if you feel guilty about something you did that you know is wrong, how do you deal with it?
For the Dom/me guilt poses some serious inner conflicts in how to deal with their guilt. How do you maintain your role or mental image of dominance in the relationship and be apologetic, penitent, or even seriously contrite of heart?
The submissive faces another sets of problems in that they don’t want to disappoint their Dom/me or may be fearful of the consequences, and so they absorb the hurt suffering quietly with their guilt.
I have stated that guilt is a negative; I probably should have said; guilt that is not dealt with, is a negative. Guilt in itself is actual a good thing in that it can teach us our limits, and warn us when we are not at peace about someting we have said, done or thought.
What are some negative effects of not dealing with guilt for both a Dom/me or submissive?
The thing that stands out in my memory is a time I didn’t deal with an issue I felt guilty about. The situation was about a limit I broke of my sub’s without her knowledge. Part of our contract had exclusiveness to each other in it. One time I was online while my sub was away for an extended period of time and I put myself in a situation which lead to breaking that trust. At first I tried to rationalize the guilt away with lame excuses such as: "I am the Dom I will do what I damn well please" and I tried "it was a stupid mistake and she doesn’t have to know". The results were devastating. By not dealing with my guilt, it added even more hurt to the situation. Though my sub didn’t know anything about it, the guilt was affecting me, and I found myself trying to avoid her. Avoidance is the key word here. I was avoiding my guilt and my neglecting my sub, and all in all I was avoiding my own dominant nature by not having the balls or fucking decency to face up to responsibility. She began to hurt and doubt herself because I was neglecting her, which from what I understand is possibly one of the worst punishments you can give to a sub. By not dealing with my guilt, I was destroying something very special to me/us. I was afraid of the consequences by telling her. I thought it would kill her, and I didn’t want her to take back the gift of herself to me. I am glad I finally came to my senses and realized I had to deal with this, even if it meant she would leave. It was so unfair that she was being abused for my own guilty conscious and one way or another I had to put a stop to that. I told her, and yes it was all bad and more, but in the end we managed to put things back together. I am still not proud of what I did. I came to realize we all make wrong decisions at times in our lives, what separates those who are destroyed by those bad choices, and those who are survivors is how you face up to them and go on living life and learn from the experience.
----
Part II
From here I would like to introduce to you some of my thoughts on how to deal with guilt. I simply call it the “Cleansing Process”. I myself have problems with following some checklist and step-by-step program(not knocking them as they do have their place and can be very helpful) when it comes to dealing with matters of a person’s heart and spirit. So please do not mistake how the information is presented as step1 then 2 then 3 etc… however it is the only way I know how to relate what I have to share in an organized way. The intent is to understand the process as a whole and why each part is important. Also, when reading through it, keep in mind there is not time limit set for any of these steps. The whole process could take 15 mins from start to finish, or it could take a lifetime.
The Cleansing Process:
Step 1 – Admitting you have guilt.
The idea here is regardless of what morality others may hold, TO YOU, what YOU did was wrong and you have real guilt about it inside you. You know when you have taken this step when you admit the pain you feel, and are sorry(an attitude or sincere regret).
This first step is so important. Cleansing is about you. Cleansing must first start with being honest with yourself. Denial and avoidance are clear indications that you have not taken this step about your guilt.
Now as important as step 1 is in beginning the process of cleansing, no one ever accomplished anything from just feeling sorry for them-selves. I don’t know about you, but whinnie baby subs turn my stomach, and a whinnie Dom/me? Yuk sums it up nicely. Both often need a good kick in the arse to wake the hell up lol.
So after taking the important step 1, what’s next?
Well the details and actions vary depending on if you are a PLY or ply, but regardless of being top or bottom here are what I believe are steps for continuing the cleansing process. In this order:
::Think, Understand, Take action, Wait, Repay, and Forgive::
Step 2 – To Think About the Cause of Your Guilt
Think about what happened and why. There was a reason you did what you did and no matter how ugly of a truth you have to face about yourself, it is important. This is a chance for you to ask yourself why? Often in this spot, people can look back into their past and see a pattern of behavior or a “cycle of destruction” as I call it. This also may be a time when you discover a weakness about yourself that you never knew existed.
Step 3 – Understand
You may or may not be able to fully get to the bottom of why you did this. It is important to try step 2, but what is as equally important is that you do not get stuck on step 2 if you can’t figure it out. What you need to understand is that you are dealing with guilt you have now in the here and the present. So you need to understand what your sorry for.
[side story]Once I broke something of my mom’s that she treasured. I remember saying, “I’m sorry”, but she then asked me what was I sorry for…and I knew she wasn’t just talking about breaking some object.[end story] Understand that being sorry, for spilt mik isn’t the goal. What is the goal, is being sorry for the hurt your wrongdoing inflicted on another and upon yourself. Only then will you be ready to accept the consequences of the hurt you caused.
Step 4 – Take Action
Up to this point you have been doing some serious soul searching, and now it is time to act on the conclusions. It time to make an apology. Weather the person is aware or unaware of the wrong, or even if no one else is involved, it is time to open your mouth and speak truthfully your heart. State clearly the wrong, then make an apology for the hurt this wrong caused, and express the willingness to accept the consequence(s).
Step 5 - Wait
Be prepared in advance for what could happen next. Often it takes time for another person to digest what has happened and evaluate the hurt they feel, or even how deeply the hurt goes. This is what I call the time of grieving. This whole time you have been dealing with your guilt and now you are ready to be free of it, however your not out of the guilt dog-house yet. You owe consideration to the person you hurt and give them some time to think, understand and grieve. This also holds true for you. You may have already did all the thinking and understanding you need to, but now its time give yourself a chance to grieve properly. Also, just a warning, sometimes the other person at this moment may display strong emotions from anger to tears, Just because they do not move immediately to steps 6&7 doesn’t mean they reject your apology. It just means they are devastated by what they just learned and they need time. You may even pre-lude your apology with something like, you may need some time to think about what I am about to share.
Step 6 – Repay
There is a good thread in the library section by Miss Taken on the subject of discipline –vs- punishment which is good reading about this. The idea here is that you have prepared yourself to do whatever you can to right a wrong. You don’t get a say here at this point. By hurting the other person, only they can state what they need to be able to feel this hurt has been healed. Often, there is not much one can do. Many times, it requires the person who was hurt to be strong enough and bigger than the hurt they received. It is often through the heartfelt apology you offer, and the love that is shared for each other that gives them the power and strength to be able to take the next step
Step 7 - Forgiveness
You must accept the other person’s forgiveness and equally as important forgive yourself. Accepting forgiveness is not just saying forget the whole thing. Accepting forgiveness is actually making an acknowledgement and making a promise. What do I mean by that? It means when you accept a person’s forgiveness you acknowledge that they are reaffirming their love and trust in you, and the promise you give back, is that you will do all you can to prevent from doing this wrong that hurt them. This is the moment when you feel the guilt disappear and you are cleansed and free(can I get an amen lol).
I know this post is long but I would be amiss if I didn’t answer the question I know some may be asking, what if the other person doesn’t forgive or you can’t forgive yourself?
I’m glad you asked
Part of preparing yourself to live with the consequences is unfortunately accepting the possibility that you will not be forgiven and the relationship you are now in, will be over. Very scary thought indeed and is why many refuse to deal with the guilt out of fear. However, consider the alternative. The relationship you are in will now be partially built on a lie or deception, you are constantly in anxiety over the guilt you feel and you have closed doors to growth within yourself. As bad a facing the consequences of a relationship ending, I am sure many can testify as to the pain and agony of not dealing with guilt.
If it is the case that the other person cannot forgive or that you cannot forgive yourself, the following may be of little compensation for you. However, they are true and factual and gives you at least something to wrap your hands around and hold to, to endure the time of pain ahead.
1. You are a human being and you have made mistakes and bad choices before this happened, and will make more before your time in this life is over.
2. Your sorrow over what you did was real. The sincerity of sorrow over the hurt you caused was genuine and you offered the apology in hopes to make right the wrong. You even were willing to repay what ever you could to make the situation right. The pain of the person not giving forgiveness and leaving is not the same pain you apologized for(even though it feels like one big hurt). It is important to separate the guilt from the consequential pain. You may never be at peace with the consequential pain, but you can still forgive yourself and be free of the guilt from the act you did. This is about accepting blame. In the short term it may not mean much, but later down the road, you will be able to look back and know you did the best you could do to make it right, and the other person is responsible for choosing to end the relationship.
(I hope in the future to have a thread dedicated to the topic of forgiveness.)
One thing I encourage Dom/mes is to incorporate something in training their subs, is to make a way for their subs to come to them and be cleansed of guilt. The method is not important in the how its done, but what is important is that the sub knows if they come to you in “this manner” you will promise to hear what they have to say. This is not a get out of jail free card nor are any free rides promised here, it just means you are providing a way for them to approach you with some guilt they are dealing with, which is always preferable than them suffering quietly without your knowledge. Having something in place allows you to get involve early on, before letting things go to the point where drastic actions are taken. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Peace to you all
RJ
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