Damascus Steel

[SeaCat]

Does this make for a good knife blade? Is it equal to modern steel combinations? Would I do well to buy a good named Damascus Steel Knife or should I just get a good cheaper named brand blade?

Cat

 

[Salvor-Hardon]

I've seen it used in a few forges, and it usually has a wavy and almost marbled effect on the edges that gives a blade a fascinating look. Not sure if it is harder or more durable but it looks better.

The blacksmith I saw using it was mounting it to an elk antler so the overall effect was very fluid and reflective of nature.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

If Damascus or layered steel were really better than D4 or any of the other top-quality knife steels, all the majors would have come up with a way of producing it in quantity. They have not. Layered steel is good steel and very attractive but it isn't any better for working blades than forged monosteel blades.

Most Damascus blades end up in collector's collections.

 

[R. Richard]

Does this make for a good knife blade? Is it equal to modern steel combinations? Would I do well to buy a good named Damascus Steel Knife or should I just get a good cheaper named brand blade?

Cat

The original Damascus steel was actually Wootz steel from India. The steel came from India to Persia and then to the Arabs. The secret to Damascus steel was that it was a mixture of harder, more brittle steel, with softer, more flexible steel. The alternating layers of two different types of steel produced a sort of pattern in the surface of the steel. It was also though that the Wootz steel has certain trace elements in it, that may have contributed to its strength. Unfortunately the source of Wootz steel was mined out centuries ago. Thus, unless you're buying an antique knife, you're not getting actual Damascus steel.

There was a man named James B. Waters from Washington, Arkansas who was reputed to be able to reproduce a Damascus type steel by folding and hammering steel. [The same kind of process was used to produce classical Samuri swords.] However, the secret died with Waters.

Modern knife makers can produce a Damascus type steel by hammering steel wires. I have no experience with the product, but understand that it is basically done for appearance, not performance.

 

[Techomancer]

Functionally, Damascus steel was a big deal when it was the first steel in wide use for weapons. Most of the patterned steel you see today isn't true Damascus, just layered to give the effect. (or worse, acid etched to look like it)

It's got artisan/snob appeal and I will admit it looks nice if done correctly, but it's been surpassed by modern materials for some time.

 

[incubus666]

Cat if you want a good working knife for a reasonable price buy something like a Gurber or something like that. The Damascus blades were heated hammered, folded then rinse lather repeat several times. What the smiths were diong was working carbon steel into mild steel to make a strong blade for the times.

Many of today's D blades are welded, acid washed, without the folding and the other work involved. They are pretty but not necessarily very good blades.

Google knifes and you will get 10,000+ hits. Find the one you like and can afford. In this case working is very different then pretty.

I love the look of the D blades but I just won't spend the money just for pretty.

 

[jomar]

I'd do a google search/comparison. But it makes sense to me that if Damascus were truly better you'd see it pushed for working knives. And military spec.

If you like the look...but otherwise I'd think modern steel.

ETA: My father has a huge knife collection so you question caught my eye. For fun, here's Bear's choices.

 

[Weird Harold]

Does this make for a good knife blade? Is it equal to modern steel combinations? Would I do well to buy a good named Damascus Steel Knife or should I just get a good cheaper named brand blade?

Cat

I suspect that if you can find a true "Damascus Steel" blade, you won't be able to afford it.

I'm not familiar with any specific Damascene knives or damascene kinife makers, but the process is very labor intensive and not amenable to automation.

I will point out that Damascus Barreled shotguns are totally extinct be cause they cannot be made to withstand the pressure of modern gunpowders. However, I don't think the unsuitability of the process to gunbarrels applies to its suitability for swords and knives -- there's a big difference in the characteristics required.

Modern high-tech knife materials can probably match the characteristics of well made damascene steel swords and knives, but I don't know of any mass-produceable material or process that can exceed the desireable characteristics of a well-made, artisan forged, folded steel (damscene) blade.

 

[JackLuis]

I'd much prefer a good stainless for a working knife. Modern steels are much to be prefered to Damascus. Most D blades are for show and about the skill of making them pretty.

If your talking a 6 in bowie type find a good K-bar and save a few bucks. It makes a nice camp knife.

Buck folders are good quality and stainless, important in a humid climate.

 

[mrboom]

I'm a Blaksmith and modern steel is not better than Damascus it is just cheaper and easer to make, that is why big companys dont use it. It is still one of the most sophisticated metaral in the world.

 

[Handprints]

What you need does depend on what you're going to use it for. If the knife is going to be used to carved abrasive, silica-filled hardwoods, don't buy a D-blade unless you want to create a really pretty butter knife. If you want something that works fine and starts conversations, maybe Damascus-look steel's for you, maybe you should be looking at some of the more exotic-looking alloys. If you want a reliable, cheap, easy-to-maintain utility knife, JackLuis is right: buy a K-Bar or equivalent. In truth, unless you're going to do something unusual very regularly with your knife, you probably won't notice much difference in use between any five knives you pick at random.

 

[xssve]

Ultimately, it depends on what you're using it for - in order to get a true layered blade, which as R. Richards says, is a method obtaining an optimal balance between sharpness and flexibility, both tricky and labor intensive, you're going to pay through the nose - so I'd go by budget - the Damascus style blades produced by modern knifemakers are mostly for collectors, quality (and price) is going to depend a lot on the individual knifemaker.

I have a Couple of Caphalon's Katana Collection, which have "Damascus styling" I bought them mainly because I liked the way they looked, they are pretty, otherwise well designed, and seem to hold an edge pretty well, but I'm not sure they chop onions any faster or anything.

So, if it's a kitchen knife, whatever, if you life is going to depend on it, a carbon steel blade will stay sharp, but is very brittle when cold, or if it comes up against anything harder than it is - i.e., the harder it is, the less flexible and the less shear strength it has, whereas softer steel with less carbon tends to be more flexible and have a higher shear strength, but more work to keep sharpened.

Oddly however, the softer steels are preferable in a survival knife, it takes a diamond hone to touch a lot of these high carbon steels, whereas a softer steel can be sharpened on a river rock, and isn't going to break off at the tang if you have to put any torque on it, which will render the fanciest knife considerably less useful.

Spring steel from old leaf springs used to be a very popular source of steel for hunting knifes for this reason - it requires a considerable amount of torque to split the breastbone of a deer, though you might have to stop and hone a few times during the skinning.

Personally, I favor the Swiss Army Tinker over a big fancy survival knife you're embarrassed to carry around - doesn't do you any good if you don't have it on you, and those big knoves are really pretty useless for skinning - I'll take a nice little drop point skinner.

 

[xssve]

I notice that there is a Nakiri in the Caphalon Katana collection, a sort of a very thin, flexible cleaver, which is good, they are next to impossible to find and extremely useful, but in the case of a Nakiri, rigidity is not a plus - one of the handy things about them is that they're flexible enough to scoop stuff up after you've diced it.

My Nakiri is a cheapo stamped metal thing I picked up at the Chinese restaurant supply decades ago, and I probably use it more than any other knife I own, although I now use this gigantic ice hardened Anolon Santoku for cutting meat.

Point being, that a lot of people seem to think a Nakiri is a cleaver, when it is in fact, a knife, and make them way too beefy to be useful - flexibility is a distinct asset in this instance - same goes for fillet knives.

 

[xssve]

Just as trivia, to give you an idea of what is involved, a Japanese Katana is essentially a piece of hard, high carbon steel wrapped around a piece of low carbon steel, which are then folded repeatedly until it's up to a million layers thick.

That's just the blank though, which is straight - the characteristic curve is the result of the tempering process, where the blade is coated with a thick clay slip along the spine, thinning as it approaches the blade, which itself is crosshatched with lines of slip.

When the blade is heated and then cooled, the slip coated metal cools more slowly, and retains it's flexibility (Pearlite) while the uncoated edge cools rapidly and is extremely hard, but brittle (Martensite) - the greater contraction of the slower cooling spine creates the curve of the blade, while the crosshatching on the blade creates regions of pearlite along the length of the blade, so that if the blade is chipped in combat, the crack will hit a line of Pearlite and arrest, instead of traveling though to the spine causing the sword to break in half - sort of like ripstop nylon.

This crosshatching is what creates the Hamon, a pattern on the blade unique to Japanese swords, and which varies according to the hatching technique, often imitated in mass produced imitations through asymmetrical honing techniques whereas the real thing is a delicate process - the slightest asymmetry in the blade or the slip coating and it will twist as well as curve.

The Western equivalent, similar in principle, was the Frankish Snake blade, mentioned in Beowulf, which is achieved by surrounding a core of low carbon steel rods with high carbon rods, then twisting them in a spiral pattern and hammering it out.

Some modern techniques include ice hardening or cryogenic hardening which rapid cooling creates a grain in the crystalline structure of the steel itself, which can impart tensile strength as well as hardness depending on how it's done. This too is a fairly high tech precision technique, as tempering cannot be done in a single step: the metal has to be heated and cooled in several operations at successively higher temperatures.

 

[SeaCat]

OKay, to clear up some questions.

This knife is a general use pocket knife. Clean the finger nails, peel Oranges, Trim Screens, skin and clean snakes and other critters for dinner etc. I don't need a blade longer than a couple of inches and it has to be thin enough to fit into my pocket. Did I mention this is a pocket knife which means it has to be a folder.

I already have several sheath type knives for camping/survival. (Including Buck and K-Bar.) I even have a nice Multi-tool. (Gerber)

I also have a ton of folders with multiple blades. I find them to be uncomfortable for general daily carry. (To my mind the best of these is a Victorinox made for Mauser.)

With that in mind here are a couple of knives I'm looking at.

http://www.ceramicknife.org/

http://www.pocketknivesmall.com/product/B-01RY1493DAM

Cat

 

[SeaCat]

I notice that there is a Nakiri in the Caphalon Katana collection, a sort of a very thin, flexible cleaver, which is good, they are next to impossible to find and extremely useful, but in the case of a Nakiri, rigidity is not a plus - one of the handy things about them is that they're flexible enough to scoop stuff up after you've diced it.

My Nakiri is a cheapo stamped metal thing I picked up at the Chinese restaurant supply decades ago, and I probably use it more than any other knife I own, although I now use this gigantic ice hardened Anolon Santoku for cutting meat.

Point being, that a lot of people seem to think a Nakiri is a cleaver, when it is in fact, a knife, and make them way too beefy to be useful - flexibility is a distinct asset in this instance - same goes for fillet knives.

Most of my Kitchen Knives are either leftovers from when I worked in a Hell Hall, (My nickname for a Slaughter House.) of they are hand me downs from my mothers family. The Slaughter House knives are large and sharp. The hand me downs are ancient blades made in Solingen Germany and absolutely beautiful as well as usefull.

The one Kitchen Utility Knife I miss is a Ulu made with a Solingen Steel Blade. Talk about usefull. Someone stole it though. I miss it and have yet to find another to replace it.

Cat

 

[Elianna]

Where the hell were you guys when I was looking all this shit up?!!! Here I had to go do all my own research, and you guys were the wealth of knowledge all along.

However, I don't remember who posted it above... There's no such thing as Damascus steel anymore. When I DID research it, I learned that the "true" Damascus steel has been mined away. What made it so special was the combination of minerals in the ore.

I assume they are saying Damascus steel to refer more to the process of forging now, and not the actual steel.

[Threadjack] Anyone know of a good place to get some information on life in Damascus during the 500-700 A.D. area? [/Threadjack]

 

[SeaCat]

Where the hell were you guys when I was looking all this shit up?!!! Here I had to go do all my own research, and you guys were the wealth of knowledge all along.

However, I don't remember who posted it above... There's no such thing as Damascus steel anymore. When I DID research it, I learned that the "true" Damascus steel has been mined away. What made it so special was the combination of minerals in the ore.

I assume they are saying Damascus steel to refer more to the process of forging now, and not the actual steel.

[Threadjack] Anyone know of a good place to get some information on life in Damascus during the 500-700 A.D. area? [/Threadjack]

LOLOL

I have often run into that. I'll be thinking of something and do a shitload of research on it then run across a thread here about it. Kind of madening at times.

Then again I have relearned an old adage, you never know until you ask.

Cat

 

[Elianna]

LOLOL

I have often run into that. I'll be thinking of something and do a shitload of research on it then run across a thread here about it. Kind of madening at times.

Then again I have relearned an old adage, you never know until you ask.

Cat

Smart man.

Sorry to hear about the kitties. I'm lucky it's too dry for fleas here.

 

[jomar]

Where the hell were you guys when I was looking all this shit up?!!! Here I had to go do all my own research, and you guys were the wealth of knowledge all along.

However, I don't remember who posted it above... There's no such thing as Damascus steel anymore. When I DID research it, I learned that the "true" Damascus steel has been mined away. What made it so special was the combination of minerals in the ore.

I assume they are saying Damascus steel to refer more to the process of forging now, and not the actual steel.

[Threadjack] Anyone know of a good place to get some information on life in Damascus during the 500-700 A.D. area? [/Threadjack]

LOLOL

I have often run into that. I'll be thinking of something and do a shitload of research on it then run across a thread here about it. Kind of madening at times.

Then again I have relearned an old adage, you never know until you ask.

Cat

The questions asked here never fail to crack me up. From electronics to knives to finance - on a porn board! Like Lit is google for members. I've done it myself and it works. You get your answer and get redirected to sex. Who could ask for more?

 

[tickledkitty]

The questions asked here never fail to crack me up. From electronics to knives to finance - on a porn board! Like Lit is google for members. I've done it myself and it works. You get your answer and get redirected to sex. Who could ask for more?

Don't you love it? I posted about Ebay today and got my answer within about 5 minutes I think. Never fails. People here know everything.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Don't you love it? I posted about Ebay today and got my answer within about 5 minutes I think. Never fails. People here know everything.

For general pocket knife-ry, I always prefered a three blade whittling knife. Old Timer makes the one I carried for years and will again in the future once I retire. For the present I have a Leatherman so I can fix stuff as well as open envelopes and such, but I really miss having a comfortable hand full of knife in my pocket.

Normally I am never without one knife. Sometimes I carry two. On very rare occasions I will have three and once, for reasons I to this day cannot explain, I found myself wearing four knives! Once I became aware of the fact, I put one away.

 

[xssve]

OKay, to clear up some questions.

This knife is a general use pocket knife. Clean the finger nails, peel Oranges, Trim Screens, skin and clean snakes and other critters for dinner etc. I don't need a blade longer than a couple of inches and it has to be thin enough to fit into my pocket. Did I mention this is a pocket knife which means it has to be a folder.

I already have several sheath type knives for camping/survival. (Including Buck and K-Bar.) I even have a nice Multi-tool. (Gerber)

I also have a ton of folders with multiple blades. I find them to be uncomfortable for general daily carry. (To my mind the best of these is a Victorinox made for Mauser.)

With that in mind here are a couple of knives I'm looking at.

http://www.ceramicknife.org/

http://www.pocketknivesmall.com/product/B-01RY1493DAM

Cat

Again, I recommend the Swiss Army Tinker, it's not a huge cumbersome multiblade, just about the size of a Barlow, smaller and lighter than any folder, much smaller than that Mauser, which is fucking huge, and it has a Phillips screwdriver instead of the corkscrew on the Spartan, which I would never use.

Multi tools are definitely in the useless category, like the Deluxe Tinker, the one with like a Hundred blades (the Champ is just a fucking joke), mainly because they are so heavy and bulky, you never carry them after the first couple of days, and you look like a dork when you carry them in the sheath - what am I McGyver? I keep the multi tool in the Glove box.

Another one you might consider is the Swiss Rescue Tool, which looks interesting and you'll be the first on your block to have one - I've never even seen one until now.

The One Hand Fireman is similar, and maybe even a little cooler, the One Hand Trekker looks almost identical but fewer blades and probably less cumbersome - I'm definitely getting one of those.

More Victorinox knives - ooh, check out the Memory 512!

Serrated blades are nice, since they'll cut even when they get dull, but the real charm of this knife is that it isn't a chore to carry, and so you tend to have it on hand when you need it - the classic is even smaller and I have on on my keychain, it's great for impromptu manicures, having scissors and a nail file and it opens boxes and blister packs just fine, which is about what I use a knife for about 99% of the time.

I have to keep my folders in my back pocket, most are equipped with a clip, but that freaks some people out. The lighter ones are usually not as strong in the handle - I have an old Bucklite somewhere that has a pretty good handle, but it's bulky.

There are some good ones with skeletonized handles, I prefer the Tanto style blades because the blade design is very good for piercing hard objects - like the skull of a Rottweiler - which is why I carry one - for defense against people, I carry a very small, very bright flashlight.

Cold Steel makes some good knives, as does SOG, though on the expensive side, and Spydercos have a good rep and any knife store in the mall should carry a variety of models from budget Chinese under $10.00, to top of the line Cold Steel, while Wall Mart carries some decent mid range models including Gerbers.

One of my favorite folders is a cheapo Chinese Tanto style with a metal handle, but it's fairly thin in profile and not too heavy, and has reasonably strong hinge with a screw to adjust the action - I've bent it, but never broken it - if you look, you'll sometimes find a bargain.

That ceramic blade does look cool, but it's going to be very brittle, as they mention.

 

[SeaCat]

Okay the knife that vanished was a Gerber. I liked it but was somewhat disapointed as it didn't have the old Gerber Laminate Blade. (I don't think Gerber makes laminated blades any more.) It was comfortable to use and while a bit long it was easy to slip into a pocket.

I do have a Multi-tool. A Gerber Suspension. The thing is great but a bit large and heavy to wear on my belt.

For work I have an ancient Puma. The thing is tiny yet keeps an edge like you wouldn't believe. (It also looks nice.) It's just too damned small for general use.

I'm kind of leaning towards both the Ceramic and one of the Damascus Knives from Boker. (Smaller than the one I linked to.) Then I can check them both out and not lose a lot of money. (Too bad there aren't any stores around here that carry blades like Cold Steel.)

Now the saddest thing is I have a drawer filled with pocket knives. Everything from half a dozen different Swiss Army Knives to the Mauser to a Deer Hunter to some brands that I have never heard of. Most of them are too damned large for daily carry and the others have shit for steel in their blades.

Cat

 

[JackLuis]

As long as we'er talking knives.

I've carried a Schrade three bladed stockman since 1972 and I found it to be excellent it light it stays sharp and has three blade shapes to do lots of different tasks.

For a pocket knife in nonhostial enviroments hard to beat the timlessness of a good stockman.

'course it is a pain in the ass to travel with now days.

It is all the Arabs fault that a man can't carry a useful tool because of the histeria over terroisim. Pain in the ass Fundementalist assholes!

Oh we were talking knives.

I've had a K-bar since about 1960, mil-issue, who knows who made it? It has proven to be an excellentcamp-guardening tool and holds an edge very nicely.

Can't say I would want to be parted from either knife. Unless I could put the K-Bar in Osoma's throat.