D/s – nature or nurture?

[wolf2002]

I have seen some topics passing by lately that give me the impression there’s a lot of controversy about the nature of D/s. I am sure this has been done before, but perhaps we could start a little nature/nurture debate… I would like to hear your opinions...

Wolf

 

[ethereal~minx]

dominance and submission is totally nature, of course, I could change my mind once I read an enlightened post but right now~ this is my opinion!

we're all~~ inside, deeeep inside~~~ innately one or the other ...
and in our closest relationships, and maybe not necessarily the closest, we have the ability to see or become aware of our tendencies or our d/s natures by how we interact

it is NATURE and I think if more and more people could or were exposed to this, it would make the world a better place...

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

dominance and submission is totally nature, of course, I could change my mind once I read an enlightened post but right now~ this is my opinion!

we're all~~ inside, deeeep inside~~~ innately one or the other ...
and in our closest relationships, and maybe not necessarily the closest, we have the ability to see or become aware of our tendencies or our d/s natures by how we interact

it is NATURE and I think if more and more people could or were exposed to this, it would make the world a better place...

I've got to disagree with you...I've done alot of general research into the subject, and the impression that I have gotten is that everything in a human being is a combination or nature and nurture. We all have a basic predisposition towards certain things, but the brain can be rewired by upbringing to go in a different direction.

 

[esclave_PP]

I think that it is all of the above. Each aspect you mentioned is valid. Some people are naturally like this, some are drawn to it, some just like to play. Interesting poll!

 

[sunfox]

My view of D/s has been that it is all of the things listed above. For some, it is part of their nature.. something that has been an underlying drive in their lives from the first. For others, it is due to an overbearing parent, or partner, or potentially, due to abuse of some sort in their life. Then there are the people who just want to be seen as shocking... it takes all kinds, I guess.

For each person, the answer could be different. I see it as all of those choices, in one way or another.

 

[WriterDom]

Outside of the last 45 years and still in most cultures today, it is the natural order of things. God created women to serve men. End of story.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Outside of the last 45 years and still in most cultures today, it is the natural order of things. God created women to serve men. End of story.

LOL!!


No offense, but...LMAO!!

 

[ethereal~minx]

Outside of the last 45 years and still in most cultures today, it is the natural order of things. God created women to serve men. End of story.

*smiles*
ahhhh but how do you know the divine inside the human body?
is it masculine or feminine in nature?

perhaps God created human to serve human WriterDom.
that is the beauty of the human animal, that is why it works in ALL ways
men serve Women,
women serve Men
men serve Men
and women serve Women

...

 

[Kajira Callista]

*smiles*
ahhhh but how do you know the divine inside the human body?
is it masculine or feminine in nature?

perhaps God created human to serve human WriterDom.
that is the beauty of the human animal, that is why it works in ALL ways
men serve Women,
women serve Men
men serve Men
and women serve Women

...

Well said EM

 

[ethereal~minx]

I've got to disagree with you...I've done alot of general research into the subject, and the impression that I have gotten is that everything in a human being is a combination or nature and nurture. We all have a basic predisposition towards certain things, but the brain can be rewired by upbringing to go in a different direction.

oh Johnny, I think I agree. I jumped right in with an answer without going deeeeep into the question. perhaps we're all Divinely Dominant & by upbringing we're nurtured into submission- or the other way around ...maybe I'm missing your point *smiles again*

I do agree though that through everything that I've been through lately, the pains that I have put myself through, the crazy beliefs that I have had about the INNATE DOM 'for my good' relationship that I have been in, I have found that in this "" connection, I would be fuller, more alive,more free to be more of me~ more balanced *smiling* if I nurtured my dominant side...if I gave my divine masculine side a try----if I went in a different direction, no rewiring required---just a willing partner!

 

[Etoile]

Outside of the last 45 years and still in most cultures today, it is the natural order of things. God created women to serve men. End of story.

Somehow I don't think WD meant this literally as his belief. (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong!) But it sounded to me like he was saying that is what many cultures throughout history have believed. At first I got offended too, by both the religious and heterosexual aspects, but I think WD was just quoting history. And in that sense, he's right.

I voted "all of the above" because...well, different strokes for different folks. It's like being gay. Some people are born gay, some people are gay because they were molested as a child, some people choose to be gay...and so forth. You can't define it one way for all people.

 

[WriterDom]

Somehow I don't think WD meant this literally as his belief. (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong!) But it sounded to me like he was saying that is what many cultures throughout history have believed. At first I got offended too, by both the religious and heterosexual aspects, but I think WD was just quoting history. And in that sense, he's right.

It was kinda tongue in cheek. In Saudi, the testimony of one man equals that of two women. Seems like I read that a woman can't divorce, but I man can simply by saying "I divorce you." three times. The state tolerates men "punishing" their wives for "disobedience"

http://golum.riv.csu.edu.au/~mwhite30/womensrights.html

"How sad it is to be a woman! Nothng on Earth is held so cheap. No one is glad when a girl is born, by her family sets no store."_

Besides the fact that Fu xuan wrote this poem in 3 AD It still pretty much sums up the life of a girl in China. Women are still considered inferior. In China,the majority of people live on farms, therefore "strong hands" are needed in the fields; therefore, the Chinese favour sons over daughters. Sons take care of their parents in old age, while daughters leave their homes when they marry and become part of the husbands ' family. When a baby girl is born, the family views her as a temporary possesion.

Some parents sell their baby girls when they need the money; these girls are often brought up as household servants or prostitutes. At other times baby girls are drowned at birth.Women in China are still considered to be inferior to men. A women is expected to obey her father as a child, her husband as a woman, and her son in her old age. On the other hand, it is a moral obligation of the person in authority to be just as resonable. Therefore some believe that the man should be kind, yet at the same time deal severly with faults.

Once a female child is born, the simplest method to avoid having a penalty for having more children is not to record her birth. Families often put baby girls up for adoption, or they frequently abandon them. In China the gender ration among children is111 males for every 100 females. This statistic strongly suggests that anti-women sediment still exists.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

oh Johnny, I think I agree. I jumped right in with an answer without going deeeeep into the question. perhaps we're all Divinely Dominant & by upbringing we're nurtured into submission- or the other way around ...maybe I'm missing your point *smiles again*

I do agree though that through everything that I've been through lately, the pains that I have put myself through, the crazy beliefs that I have had about the INNATE DOM 'for my good' relationship that I have been in, I have found that in this "" connection, I would be fuller, more alive,more free to be more of me~ more balanced *smiling* if I nurtured my dominant side...if I gave my divine masculine side a try----if I went in a different direction, no rewiring required---just a willing partner!

I think we can make a case for a combination of environment and natural tendencies...after all, you base your current outlook on "everything that I've been through lately, the pains that I have put myself through", right? If things had gone a different way then, you might not be exploring different things now.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Outside of the last 45 years and still in most cultures today, it is the natural order of things. God created women to serve men. End of story.

As has been said, some go for the shock factor to feed an attention need. LMAO

Catalina

 

[sunfox]

As has been said, some go for the shock factor to feed an attention need. LMAO

Catalina

*dingding* we have a winner!

The history issue can always be refuted by opposing examples, so I don't like to fall back on that particularly fallible argument. For every society where only a man can choose to divorce.. as in WD's example.. there is one, some parts of Africa, for example, where all a woman need do to divorce her husband is put his shoes out on the front step. Done. Over with. Don't let the doorknob hit ya where the good lord split ya.

I stick to my contention that all of the above options are viable ones, depending upon the person.

 

[Netzach]

Cultural phenomena as we know it.

There's all kinds of expression of power and sexuality across the world. D/s as we think of it, the signs and signifiers we look at to reveal "D/s" to us (story of O anyone) VERY Western, very contemporary, very here and now.

That's not to say there's no dominant-submissive expression elsewhere, in other times in other cultures. But the self-consciousness that causes us to even bother to have a *label* for something like maledom-femsub other than "what my mother taught me" or "how it should be" or "you know how Betty and Bob are" that self conscious recognition....cultural.

We are the navel gazers.

 

[wolf2002]

Hey everybody, thanks for the great comments...

I voted 'all of the above' myself, though I also tend to the first option, since I like to look at mankind as a bunch of naked apes...

BTW, I really think there's a great bunch into BDSM cause they think it's a cool lifestyle, you know, cause they like how they look in leather...

WD raises an interesting question, namelijk if the male Dominant/female submissive is really in the nature of things... what about the male subs and the wonderful Dommes that walk around in this world?

Keep on voting!


Wolf

 

[Mr Blonde]

I did not vote because I think people get into BDSM for different reasons. This applies towards the first and third options on the pole:

D/s is just natural. Every animal species has its alphas, betas, gammas and subordinates. BDSM is for those who have the guts to follow their instincts…

D/s is a cultural phenomena. It’s a decadent play for those who been there, seen it, done it. BDSM’ers merely seek to push their limits, get the adrenaline pumping, go for the ultimate thrill…

There are people who identify with a role and know it fits them. But there are kinksters who just like re-creating whatever is popular as an alternative culture. Plenty of clearly heterosexual vanilla women will agree to anal sex, cumshot facials and M-F-F threesomes just because those acts have been popularized through porn. If armpit sex was the next big thing, they would soon be doing that as well...but it never would have occurred to them before seeing it in porn and it does not satisfy a pre-existing need.

 

[wolf2002]

If armpit sex was the next big thing, they would soon be doing that as well...but it never would have occurred to them before seeing it in porn and it does not satisfy a pre-existing need.

You have a point, but I do not completely agree... I think the females you mention find this exciting cause it makes them feel slutty or whorish... re-acting porn scenes is just a way of living out this fantasy... acting slutty may vey well be a pre-existing need, a very basic one, namely the need to misbehave, to disobey society's rules...

I do think this is not entirely the same as engaging into D/s. Although slut or whore play may very well be part of a BDSM scene, D/s satisfies other basic needs... natural or cultural...

Wolf

 

[lizzie anne]

ooops?

yeah yeah........i aint part of the norm.....i maybe should apologize?

someone, in my mind.....SHOULD have added ANY of the above...

in my life.......ONLY........mine was a choice of mind making decisions......like hamburgers or salads.......

i just,.......got up one morn........AND TOLD MYSELF...........i am going to change lifestyles and see if it is any better'n what i have had for 50 yrs.......or i actually do know i am the only human w/ any sense......

and also......since,........i have NO sex.........NO love thing....ANNNND no s/m...........for me? it is strictly a business level relationship.......She pays Her bills with MY 30k........
i wait on Her hand and foot......literally........
and keep-house/do the yards etc.......whatever the grunt job is....."I" end up doing it........
otherwise.......some of you call me a wannabe.......in a vanilla world........some of you.......accept me and say yeah whatever....


which ever is your feeling as you read this????
just please.....understand.......it is ONLY the way "I" could do this.
none of my wives wanted to be waited-on.......i smothered them......
so------i damn well set out to find "a" woman whom would like to be waited on........

soapbox over----
take care
lizzie anne
p/s.......this should explain why i felt there ouhta be a ANY of the above.......for misfit exceptions like me......

 

[StevenWill]

Can't really say

I think Etoile is basically correct, as she often is. The problem of determining if something is nature or nurture is, first of all, to define the the thing you are studying. I don't think we actually have a good enough definition of BDSM to work with. But that's not unusual. There are many versions of many things. It's not homsexuality, it's homosexualities; not schizophrenia, schizophrenias; not depression, depressions.

But I think it is important to remember that humans are more dependent on learning and experience than any other creature. We learn our sexualities more than any other animal. The downside is that we have many people who are terribly unhappy and sexually ignorant and many people who are abused regularily. The upside is that we have the potential for incredible depth and breadth of sexual expression.

If we had a breeding season and just pawed the ground and snorted and fucked for a few days each spring, we wouldn't be having this discussion because our sex would be pre programmed and sterotyped. Never has there existed a dog or buffalo who said in the midst of breeding, "cum on my face and call me a slut and then shove your fist up my ass." Neither has there ever been a 6 year old human with those ideas either, I'll bet.

You might have a little genetic tendency to submit, but your environoment, your particular environment, releases that tendency via experience and learning.

Steve

 

[wolf2002]

Re: ooops?

which ever is your feeling as you read this????
just please.....understand.......it is ONLY the way "I" could do this

Good post... actually I don;t think there will be a lot of people on this board who'll agree you're a 'misfit'... common factor here is an interest for bondage, Dominance/submission and/or SM... the way each of us lives out these needs, can be entirely different...

You are clearly a very submissive person... join the club, I'd say...

But the poll isn;t as much about the way you practice D/s, but rather where these feelings come from... do you think it is a natural thing, or is your background/upbringing/environment to 'blame'...?
Or is your lifestyle perhaps just a 'fashion statement'...

Wolf

 

[wolf2002]

Re: Can't really say

If we had a breeding season and just pawed the ground and snorted and fucked for a few days each spring, we wouldn't be having this discussion because our sex would be pre programmed and sterotyped. Never has there existed a dog or buffalo who said in the midst of breeding, "cum on my face and call me a slut and then shove your fist up my ass." Neither has there ever been a 6 year old human with those ideas either, I'll bet.

You know, when I walk my dog, she loves to run around unleashed, chase rabbits, fight other dogs etc... but when I call her and she comes running back to me, I am almost sure she enjoys to sit down at my foot and be leashed again... I think she loves me as her boss, she wouldn;t want to have it any other way... I am her alpha male...

I doubt it is that much different between human beings... after all, we are very social animals... dominance and submission is all around us in daily life... your chef at work, your bossy mom, your sweet little brother... D/s is all around us, except in our love/sex life, although even the most vanilla relation there might be some kind of a role play... one partner who regularly takes the initiative...

Perhaps BDSM is a way to cultivate these social structures... an acceptance that it is actually quite wonderful to submit or dominate another human being... it can be very fulfilling to have no responsibility, to just be told what to do... as much as it can be very exciting to guide and control someone else...

Just a few thoughts...
Wolf