D-Day

[someoneyouknow]

Even if he had, they were in the wrong place, expecting a landing around Calais. They would have been wrecked by Allied aircraft and ship's artillery before they got to the beach head.

Not really. The big guns were at the invasion. There wasn't anything which could have easily reached troops coming from the north. Air craft could definitely have slowed the advance, but not stop it. Also, if it was realized the troops had been released, that would have meant siphoning off ships from the invasion. Less naval fire meant less support for the landing grounds and a let up against the defenders.

There's a lot of assumptions, but here's how the invasion could have been thrown back.

A) The pansies who couldn't be bothered to wake up Hitler did so.

B) Hitler's narcissism about being the best and knowing everything gives way to him realizing he'd been hoodwinked. He immediately orders all forces in Calais to head south (and possibly troops from the south to move north).

C) Release of 15th Army would have allowed it to hit the northern flank of the invaders. This would have been the English and Canadian contingents. The English were already running low on manpower. Another devastating loss could possibly have taken them out of the war as far as a fighting force was concerned.

D) Slowing the landings from proceedings would mean troops and supplies could not come ashore en mass. They would be stuck with whatever supplies they had or could get from boats ferrying back and forth. Stuck in a pocket where your enemy can shell you for hours and hours is not a position one wants to be in.

E) While naval artillery could, and did, inflict casualties on the Germans, they too had finite supplies. Not only that, once night came, the Germans would be free to move in closer to the beaches, thus putting friendly troops in harm's way.

One thing that many people forget, Eisenhower considered calling off the invasion after reports started coming in about heavy casualties due to heavier than expected resistance.

Had 15th Army been released, and all of the above taken place, there is a strong possibility Eisenhower could have stopped things and ordered a retreat.

Then of course there was the issue of troop placement. Had Rommel's idea (which was shown to be true) of placing troops closer to the beaches been enacted, reaction time would have been increased. The faster you can get your troops to the point of the enemy's landing before it's organized the better your chances of success.

 

[colddiesel]

Had Hitler released the Panzers, this wouldn't be an issue.

Just sayin.

Nonsense. The Panzers were great when they worked but routinely between 30 and 40% were unfit for service. Breakdowns were the norm particularly with tracks and the USAF and RAF bombers had comprehensively smashed up their spare parts programme.

And on the Eastern front the Russian T34 was proving more than a match. The T34 was crude, but well armed, reliable and numerous. It was slower and less manouverable and had the worst gearbox ever put in a vehicle. But it could withstand punishment no Panzer could take, and remain functional.

The Panzers reputation was built against comparatively weak opposition - France in 1940 and Russia in 1941. The Germans could never keep sufficient numbers in the field - and functioning, after that

 

[PWilton]

Not really. The big guns were at the invasion. There wasn't anything which could have easily reached troops coming from the north. Air craft could definitely have slowed the advance, but not stop it. Also, if it was realized the troops had been released, that would have meant siphoning off ships from the invasion. Less naval fire meant less support for the landing grounds and a let up against the defenders.

There's a lot of assumptions, but here's how the invasion could have been thrown back.

I think you are forgetting the massive air superiority that the Allies had at that point. Those German armies, troops, tanks, etc. would have been chewed to pieces by the Allied bombers and fighters.

 

[bellisarius]

I think you are forgetting the massive air superiority that the Allies had at that point. Those German armies, troops, tanks, etc. would have been chewed to pieces by the Allied bombers and fighters.

You are correct to a point.

All the air support in the world wouldn't guarantee that the landings would be successful given the coastal defenses in place. Further the Germans could have mustered the air power to make it even riskier had they (Hitler) not been convinced the real invasion was going to be at the Pas de Calais. As an example the production numbers for the Me-109 were 6,418 in 1943 and 14,152 in 1944. the fact is the Germans had the resources to make the landings nightmarish had they committed their forces to the right place.

I reviewed my father's mission list during that period of time and 4 missions were invasion related. 3 were in the Pas de Calais area and only one was in the area of the invasion, a mission against the marshaling yards at St. Lo. As a matter of fact the 8th Air force concentrated on the Pas de Calais area so as to further the charade that was being perpetrated on the German high command.

 

[about_average]

Its a pretty sweet rifle. But its heavy.

Oh yeah and I'd love to have one.
But no matter how nice something is, if it's associated with bad miserable it's not going to be so nice anymore.

 

[about_average]

You are correct to a point.

All the air support in the world wouldn't guarantee that the landings would be successful given the coastal defenses in place. Further the Germans could have mustered the air power to make it even riskier had they (Hitler) not been convinced the real invasion was going to be at the Pas de Calais. As an example the production numbers for the Me-109 were 6,418 in 1943 and 14,152 in 1944. the fact is the Germans had the resources to make the landings nightmarish had they committed their forces to the right place.

The coastal defenses were there, they didn't change the outcome.

Planes are great, but useless without pilots. There were few experienced pilots by the time the allies came knocking.
Those invasion stripes on all the allied aircraft weren't for decoration, they were because there were so few German planes in the air the greater risk was from friendly fire.

There was a reason that German ground forces started moving pretty much only at night.

The P-47's of that period had ranges of around 1000 miles, they ranged where they needed to be and could have made a major dent in any armor heading to Normandy.

 

[doowdniw]

You are correct to a point.

As an example the production numbers for the Me-109 were 6,418 in 1943 and 14,152 in 1944. the fact is the Germans had the resources to make the landings nightmarish had they committed their forces to the right place.

Doesn't matter how many planes were produced: by mid-'44 their pilot ranks had been severely thinned.

 

[oralaccents]

A good night's sleep after a night up with Goebbels and the Boys is my fave titbit for US Military Might geeks.

Hitler was still asleep at 10 a.m. when Nazi associate and arms minister Albert Speer arrived at the Berghof. He was awakened around noon and told the news. Hitler was not angry, or vindictive – far from it. He seemed relieved. Goebbels thought the German leader looked as if a great burden had fallen from his shoulders. He had earlier said Normandy was a possible landing site, for one thing. He felt the poor weather in the area would favor the defense. He considered Allied troops far inferior to German units. For months, Allied forces had been massing in England, where the now-weakened Luftwaffe could not strike them. Now they were in reach, in range of German guns.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/Decoder/2015/0606/D-Day-June-6-1944-How-did-Hitler-react

 

[ryan8558]

Its a pretty sweet rifle. But its heavy.

M1 was 9.5 lbs for an 8 shot semi-automatic rifle.

The Mauser 98K was 8.6 lbs for a 5 shot bolt action rifle.

If i'm a soldier in enemy territory think I would rather have the M1.

 

[Weird Harold]

Doesn't matter how many planes were produced: by mid-'44 their pilot ranks had been severely thinned.

Even if they had pilots, there was not enough fuel for them.

"If" is just an excuse for alternative fiction: the panzers weren't deployed in time and no amount of "if" can change that.

 

[neakman]

It's D-Day. Codenamed Operation Overlord, the battle began on June 6, 1944, some 156,000 American, British and Canadian forces landed on five beaches along a 50-mile stretch of the heavily fortified coast of France’s Normandy region. By late August 1944, all of northern France had been liberated, and by the following spring the Allies had defeated the Germans. Remember those who gave their lives for future generations ... namely ... us!

I do salute my father who fought and all the brave men who were part of the invasion force. The world would be different if they had not sacrificed.

 

[OldJourno]

Every Man a Hero: A Memoir of D-Day, the First Wave at Omaha Beach, and a World at War
It's by Ray Lambert
Just bought it; heard excerpts and it sounds exceptional.

 

[ryan8558]

The Far Shore - an interesting read about the Mulberrys

https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/9781480493629_p0_v2_s192x300.jpg

Every Man a Hero will be one of my next purchases.

 

[hobbit.]

Operation Neptune

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._47_(Royal_Marine)_Commando