Cyrillic?

[jaykaythree]

There's a story currently kicking around in my brain; in fact, that story will be next in my queue after this current one goes live.

Spoiler: It's a Romance set shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union. In it, a young American man falls for a Swedish embassy worker who happens to be the daughter of Soviet defectors. As there will be italics when the female lead speaks the occasional Swedish (thank you, Google Translate), I will do it in Docs, then submit it in that form.
What, though, to do with Russian (again, Google Translate)? Docs recognizes Cyrillic, but would this site if I drafted it? Here, why don't I try it, and I can have my answer.
Thank you all for your help.
Спасибо за вашу помощь.

Spasibo za vashu pomoshch'

 

[jaykaythree]

Well, that went all right ... or maybe my better bet would be just the Roman alphabet in italics.

 

[NotWise]

I think Lit uses utf-8, which is the common internet character set. It includes cyrillic. There seems to be a catch, though. Html uses only a subset of utf-8, and the published text might require the hex code for cyrillic characters. You might need to ask Laurel.

How to do it is one thing, whether you should is something else.

 

[TheRedChamber]

If the American MC speaks Russian (Swedish) then render anything said in English.
If the American MC doesn't speak Russian then write something like, "The two women shared a joke in Russian." each time.

The readers should have the same information as your PoV character. Writing in a foreign language gives your readers two different experiences, one for those who speak the second language and one for those who don't. It can be quite annoying having a significant amount of dialogue you can't follow in a story. The occasional word or phrase is okay.

Definitely don't go into new alphabets.

 

[jaykaythree]

If the American MC speaks Russian (Swedish) then render anything said in English.
If the American MC doesn't speak Russian then write something like, "The two women shared a joke in Russian." each time.

The readers should have the same information as your PoV character. Writing in a foreign language gives your readers two different experiences, one for those who speak the second language and one for those who don't. It can be quite annoying having a significant amount of dialogue you can't follow in a story. The occasional word or phrase is okay.

Definitely don't go into new alphabets.

The male lead speaks neither Russian nor Swedish at the time he meets the female lead, and has difficulty with them for a long time after.

English is the female lead's third language, but she speaks it fluently and with aplomb. She does, however, translate her first two languages for him when needed -- but that won't be often. Most of what they handle will be in good, straightforward English.

 

[RejectReality]

Honestly, there are even a few character codes I know of ( granted, very few ) that won't render properly on Lit. At least one of them ( it's been a long time since I tried and the submission form has changed significantly since then ) rendered perfectly fine in preview, but then displayed as a completely different character in the final posting. I certainly wouldn't trust UTF and the font to properly render Cyrillic.

Something rendering on the forum is no indication of what will render storyside. Two completely different code sets with a few bridges between them.

You'd be gambling, for certain. I sure as heck wouldn't submit in doc form where you can't even preview. That's playing Russian Roulette with completely random symbols spitting out at the end, and a bare minimum of 24 hours for it to get changed if you submit an edit a minute after it goes live and successfully lobby Laurel to process the edit immediately. ( Due to caching of the story pages )

Probably better off using the Romanized versions that you know will render.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I've dropped some Cyrillic into a story - a word, with the English translation right next to it. This might be romanised Cyrillic, I'm not sure - but this is how it rendered:

"I might love you. Da, mожеt." Maybe.

 

[jaykaythree]

That's playing Russian Roulette.

Oh, you better believe i saw what you did there.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Honestly, there are even a few character codes I know of ( granted, very few ) that won't render properly on Lit. At least one of them ( it's been a long time since I tried and the submission form has changed significantly since then ) rendered perfectly fine in preview, but then displayed as a completely different character in the final posting. I certainly wouldn't trust UTF and the font to properly render Cyrillic.

Something rendering on the forum is no indication of what will render storyside. Two completely different code sets with a few bridges between them.

Valid caution, but I can confirm Cyrillic works story-side. Screenshot from page 3 of "Loss Function":



I would second @TheRedChamber's advice that the (presumed-Anglophone) reader should have as much info as your PoV character; I used Cyrillic there precisely because Patricia doesn't understand Russian.

 

[Altissimus]

I like the idea of using the Cyrillic alphabet for a Russian character. I think it would add authenticity and help engage the reader. However, I also support the fact that the reader needs to know what was said, whether they speak the language or not.

That can be done in a number of ways, of course:

Option 1:

"я не люблю водку"
She looked at him in disbelief.
"What did he say?"
"He said he didn't like vodka."

Option 2:

"Не все русские любят водку. Остановите стереотипы. [Not all Russians like vodka. Stop stereotyping.]"

There's other ways of doing it, of course, but these are probably the simplest. I far prefer the former, though it may not always be practical for the story. The latter adds all sorts of complexity, not least of which is how you choose to punctuate.

 

[jehoram]

"я не люблю водку"
She looked at him in disbelief.
"What did he say?"
"He said he didn't like vodka."

The trouble with that is that, as a reader of English, the first line would make no sense to me. I think it would be better if the line were phonetically rendered in the Western alphabet. That way, I could actually "hear" the words spoken even though I would be getting only the sound, not the sense.

As for using Google Translate, I can only warn you to use it at your peril. If you could actually get some native speaker of the language to oversee the translation, it would be better. I once translated something into French (which I don't speak) using Google, and a reader informed me afterwards that I was using words a three-year-old might say.

 

[djrip]

The trouble with that is that, as a reader of English, the first line would make no sense to me. I think it would be better if the line were phonetically rendered in the Western alphabet. That way, I could actually "hear" the words spoken even though I would be getting only the sound, not the sense.

This is my feeling as well. I don't mind not understanding, but it I can't at least sound it out, I'm just skipping over the line. If I were the character there, I would at least know what it sounded like!

Cyrillic for notes, letters, signs, all make perfect sense.

 

[Omenainen]

Russian is written with Cyrillic alphabet, so in my opinion, if you’re writing “Russian” but not using the correct alphabet, what are you even doing?

Also I second the warning against Google translate. It just doesn’t do it, and you’ll end up looking stupid to those who actually speak the language. At the very least get someone to check your translations.

 

[djrip]

Russian is written with Cyrillic alphabet, so in my opinion, if you’re writing “Russian” but not using the correct alphabet, what are you even doing?

Also I second the warning against Google translate. It just doesn’t do it, and you’ll end up looking stupid to those who actually speak the language. At the very least get someone to check your translations.

And Japanese is written in Kanji. But still we can say Konnichiwa.

 

[Omenainen]

And Japanese is written in Kanji. But still we can say Konnichiwa.

Yes, but if I put lines of Japanese in a story I probably would not do it like that.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

There's a story currently kicking around in my brain; in fact, that story will be next in my queue after this current one goes live.

Spoiler: It's a Romance set shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union. In it, a young American man falls for a Swedish embassy worker who happens to be the daughter of Soviet defectors. As there will be italics when the female lead speaks the occasional Swedish (thank you, Google Translate), I will do it in Docs, then submit it in that form.
What, though, to do with Russian (again, Google Translate)? Docs recognizes Cyrillic, but would this site if I drafted it? Here, why don't I try it, and I can have my answer.
Thank you all for your help.
Спасибо за вашу помощь.

Spasibo za vashu pomoshch'

Okay, so if I'm reading your question correctly, you want to know if the site will publish the Russian alphabet.

I don't know, sorry.

BUT!!! With all due respect to my fellow authors, I implore you, don't (necessarily) listen to the nay-sayers who insist that you shouldn't try anything new or wild.

When I asked this forum "Will Literotica post exaggerated diacritics (glitchy-text)?", the question everyone tried to answer was "Is glitchy text a good idea for the reader?" Most people decided the answer to that was, "No."

That wasn't my question, and so very few people were helpful.

I ended up ignoring the naysayers and publishing it anyway, and it turned out almost perfect. You can check it out here.

While I do agree with @Omenainen that Google translate does a poor job of translating things 100%, if you're just intending it as stage dressing for your English speaking audiences, I think it should be fine (maybe leave a note in the afterward acknowledging that fact).

Of course it would be a safer course of action to explain that a character is speaking in another language, and it would have been "safer" to omit the diacritics from Eldritch Pact. but I was super satisfied with the results which look like the following:

 

[Omenainen]

While I do agree with @Omenainen that Google translate does a poor job of translating things 100%, if you're just intending it as stage dressing for your English speaking audiences, I think it should be fine (maybe leave a note in the afterward acknowledging that fact).

I think my stance is “don’t use other languages as stage dressing for your English speaking readers, use them properly or not at all.” I just don’t see the point if it’s not done right. But then maybe the impressionable monolingual readers will be suitable impressed, so what do I know?

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I think my stance is “don’t use other languages as stage dressing for your English speaking readers, use them properly or not at all.” I just don’t see the point if it’s not done right. But then maybe the impressionable monolingual readers will be suitable impressed, so what do I know?

As an impressionable monolinguist, I would absolutely accept the stage dressing. I feel like the majority of readers would also.
Is it proper? Probably not. But I would still risk it if I felt it added to the story... maybe it would bite me in the ass, but maybe not.

"Shoot for the moon, because even if you miss, you end up amongst the stars" and all that jazz

 

[jaykaythree]

That Eldritch script doesn't look half bad .. it's a damn sight better than anything I could have done.

 

[djrip]

I think my stance is “don’t use other languages as stage dressing for your English speaking readers, use them properly or not at all.” I just don’t see the point if it’s not done right. But then maybe the impressionable monolingual readers will be suitable impressed, so what do I know?

Romanization is using them properly. There are official rules about how to do it and everything. But using other writing systems like Cyrillic and Kanji is cool too. It just doesn't tell the European-language-speaking reader what sounds the character in the story is hearing, the way a phonetic romanized version would.

When I asked this forum "Will Literotica post exaggerated diacritics (glitchy-text)?", the question everyone tried to answer was "Is glitchy text a good idea for the reader?" Most people decided the answer to that was, "No."

MA, your text was perfect. It was in English, therefore comprehensible to us English speakers, but written in a way that was difficult to read, and required effort and concentration to get through, similar to your character's situation.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

MA, your text was perfect. It was in English, therefore comprehensible to us English speakers, but written in a way that was difficult to read, and required effort and concentration to get through, similar to your character's situation.

Wasn't it just fantastic?!?!

Not to toot my own horn, but *TOOOT TOOT!*

I am so proud of the way that turned out, and in my original forum post, everyone advised against it. I'm glad I took the risk, and thank you very much for the acknowledgment.

 

[Omenainen]

Romanization is using them properly. There are official rules about how to do it and everything. But using other writing systems like Cyrillic and Kanji is cool too. It just doesn't tell the European-language-speaking reader what sounds the character in the story is hearing, the way a phonetic romanized version would.

I was referring to using Google translate as a way to produce the different-language lines. It’s jarring to anyone actually speaking the language to stumble into something unauthentic that’s there clearly only to make the author seem clever. Talk about breaking the flow.

I personally don’t see the value of using romanized version, but if you do that, do that… the stupidest version I’ve seen was a story with two different “foreign” languages, and one of them was romanized and the other was not. I rolled my eyes so hard I think I sprained something.

Of course it would be a safer course of action to explain that a character is speaking in another language, and it would have been "safer" to omit the diacritics from Eldritch Pact. but I was super satisfied with the results which look like the following:


View attachment 2247389

This was different, because this is more about styling than language. It looks absolutely badass and there were few enough lines that it didn’t become tedious to read.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

This was different, because this is more about styling than language. It looks absolutely badass and there were few enough lines that it didn’t become tedious to read.

I am so glad you liked it!
I really look forward to hearing your full analysis of Eldridge Pact in your review thread

 

[Bramblethorn]

Romanization is using them properly. There are official rules about how to do it and everything.

But very often there are multiple, conflicting rules about how to do it.

One of my childhood homework questions was to figure out how many different ways one could transliterate "Чебышёв" (surname of a famous Russian mathematician) into the Roman alphabet. Quoting Wiki:

The surname Chebyshev has been transliterated in several different ways, like Tchebichef, Tchebychev, Tchebycheff, Tschebyschev, Tschebyschef, Tschebyscheff, Čebyčev, Čebyšev, Chebysheff, Chebychov, Chebyshov (according to native Russian speakers, this one provides the closest pronunciation in English to the correct pronunciation in old Russian), and Chebychev, a mixture between English and French transliterations considered erroneous. It is one of the most well known data-retrieval nightmares in mathematical literature. Currently, the English transliteration Chebyshev has gained widespread acceptance, except by the French, who prefer Tchebychev. The correct transliteration according to ISO 9 is Čebyšëv.

I guess ISO 9 would be the "official" version, but I doubt many English readers would know how to interpret the diacritics, so that doesn't really help us here.

For Japanese, there are at least three different transliteration systems in official use, as well as the ISO system.

But using other writing systems like Cyrillic and Kanji is cool too. It just doesn't tell the European-language-speaking reader what sounds the character in the story is hearing, the way a phonetic romanized version would.

(Did you mean "the English-speaking reader" here? Cyrillic is the default alphabet for several European languages.)

Neither option is perfect.

The underlying problem is that non-English languages (including those using variants of the Roman alphabet) very often have sounds and distinctions which aren't familiar to English speakers and which can't be clearly represented within the 26-letter alphabet. The difference between año and ano doesn't sound like much to an English monoglot but it's very important to Spanish speakers...

So the choice then is whether to use a system that represents the sounds perfectly, but will be unfamiliar to many Anglophone readers (e.g. Cyrillic, ISO), or to compress it to an approximation that can be represented in the familiar Roman alphabet and lose some nuance.

 

[djrip]

(Did you mean "the English-speaking reader" here? Cyrillic is the default alphabet for several European languages.)

I very specifically did not mean English-speaking, but yes, I guess I meant Western-European-language-speaking reader :0