Curious...

[DustyWolfe]

Okay, this is not an issue for me at the moment since at the moment I am not collared. But... I would like to know what you think.

Now... Before anyone goes and gets self righteous on me let me say this. Don't go jumping my ass or speculating on what I am doing. This is just an innocent question okay? I don't need browbeating or harmful words from anyone at this moment so please be kind to me.


Okay... Say you have a submissive that self injures. Yes, there is a reason for the self injuring, perhaps she is a bit broken from her past. BUT...

Do you punish her? If so how?

The sub needs to be nurtured, she needs affirmation that she is safe and okay and that she is loved.

Aside from this... what do you do?

 

[WillowPuss]

WoW!
Good question Dusty.



Now ... hard for me to answer - as I am neither switch nor Domme.

But ... I would say that in such a case you would not punish 'bad' behaviour, but rather reward 'good' behaviour. Rather like positive reinforcement (and there is a special phrase for this that escapes me right now ...).


Robuck saw this question.
He said no - what he would do would be to give TLC in large doses.

 

[forced]

I don't have any harmful or hurtful words for you, sweetie. I know you have been through a lot - more than I will ever really understand.

I say this with all the care and feeling I have in my heart:

I am worried about you. I worry that you need someone loving first, BDSM second (if at all).


To answer your question from a sub POV - I don't think you should be punished for self-inflicted injuries. I think you should be shown how to stop hurting yourself.

 

[morninggirl5]

Punishment would only reinforce the negative perceptions that led to the self-injurious behavior in my opinion. You can't change the behavior by making the triggers that lead to it stronger.

Positive reinforcement for lack of self-injurious behavior coupled with negative reinforcement when the behavior occurs. Negative reinforcement being the removal of something rewarding. Not punishment, but a natural consequence of the undesirable behavior. For example, self-injury occurs, the Dom/me would not
be able to go through with a planned scene because of the injury. Without "blame", it would simply be the natural consequence of the behavior.

Punishment in my mind involves control from the Dom/me. In this instance, the Dom/me is trying to help the sub learn to control her own behavior. Additionally, the behavior is based primarily on feelings of self-doubt and shame. Those feelings aren't going to be helped by additional punishment no matter what the source.


Dusty, lean on us if you need to. If any of those feelings return, someone will be here.

 

[confused20]

from another

Hi Dusty...i dont think we have met yet, but your story and your webpage are both very meaningful to me.

From another who self injures and is also interested in BDSM (although only the lighter aspects thus far) I would like to respond with my POV:

First off, the idea that someone would punish me in an attempt to alter my behavior becuz it doesnt suit them is supremely distasteful to me

Second-i am at a point in my life where SIV is still my main method of coping...and anyone who tried to forcibly remove it from my life would find themselves in a either a Battle Royale or i would just leave...obviously they havent taken the TIME to find out the WHY's behind the behavior or understand its importance to certain ppl...they merely want you to stop the behavior for their sake. And while i am willing and enjoy the idea of submitting sexually to anothers needs, i AM going to stand up for my own mental and emotional needs at all times. Trying to forcibly remove SIV activities in this way Could (and in my case has) SEVERLY injure a persons emotional foundation in a number of ways.

I dont know if this helps any Dusty, but i hope it gives you something to reflect on..I am behind you, and empathize with your situation

(disclaimer- i am not a psycho, a sicko or a freak...i would appreciate not hearing comments that illude to those characteristics or to mental instability...i am actually well adjusted and a basically happy person. i just deal with emotional/mental pain Differently...and my methods are not wrong, even if they do seem a bit strange to most)

 

[Lancecastor]

My thoughts...

Okay... Say you have a submissive that self injures.

Your first priority is to take care of her self-injuring side....to love that part of this unique and special person with all your heart. To show her self-confidence, friends, laughter and love.

I'd think that there are lots of things to do that celebrate the person's submissive side while also recognizing her SIV side.

I think the two aspects could live in harmony, don't you?

Chin up, blue skies ahead ! (repeat when necessary);

Lance

 

[confused20]

i disagree

Punishment would only reinforce the negative perceptions that led to the self-injurious behavior in my opinion. You can't change the behavior by making the triggers that lead to it stronger.

Positive reinforcement for lack of self-injurious behavior coupled with negative reinforcement when the behavior occurs. Negative reinforcement being the removal of something rewarding. Not punishment, but a natural consequence of the undesirable behavior. For example, self-injury occurs, the Dom/me would not
be able to go through with a planned scene because of the injury. Without "blame", it would simply be the natural consequence of the behavior.

Punishment in my mind involves control from the Dom/me. In this instance, the Dom/me is trying to help the sub learn to control her own behavior. Additionally, the behavior is based primarily on feelings of self-doubt and shame. Those feelings aren't going to be helped by additional punishment no matter what the source.


Dusty, lean on us if you need to. If any of those feelings return, someone will be here.

Im sorry but i disagree...SIV is not something that can be conditioned out of a person in this way...it would be WRONG to attempt it... to those who implement this emotional/mental coping strategy it serves a REAL and URGENT need...one that left unfullfilled can lead to much worse damage...until something else is LEARNED to REPLACE self injurious behaviors as a coping method it would be unspeakably CRUEL to try and make the sub (or anyone else) see them as wrong and try to use any tactics to make them "stop it"...

a better course of action is to understand your sub (or 'nilla partner) and have enough open communication that when the need for SIV arises you can help guide them towards an alternative way to express/satisfy the urge to commit self injury

edited to add: it is not an "undesiarable behavior" but mearly a misunderstood one on the other persons part...to the self injurer it is a VERY desiarable behavior..a NEEd at times when emotional/mental strain or other of lifes issues must be coped with or expressed or they overwhelm us...SIV is different for everyone who engages in it...but the only people who find it "undesiarable behavior" are those who dont fully understand...the shame and guilt come in when the self injurer reflects on thought such as "how can i do this to myself? i must be sick to want this! others dont understand. it must be wrong" simialar to the guilt some Doms feel when they reflect on the pleasure and desire they feel when hurting their sub...

 

[morninggirl5]

Re: i disagree

Im sorry but i disagree...SIV is not something that can be conditioned out of a person in this way...it would be WRONG to attempt it... to those who implement this emotional/mental coping strategy it serves a REAL and URGENT need...one that left unfullfilled can lead to much worse damage...until something else is LEARNED to REPLACE self injurious behaviors as a coping method it would be unspeakably CRUEL to try and make the sub (or anyone else) see them as wrong and try to use any tactics to make them "stop it"...

a better course of action is to understand your sub (or 'nilla partner) and have enough open communication that when the need for SIV arises you can help guide them towards an alternative way to express/satisfy the urge to commit self injury

edited to add: it is not an "undesiarable behavior" but mearly a misunderstood one on the other persons part...to the self injurer it is a VERY desiarable behavior..a NEEd at times when emotional/mental strain or other of lifes issues must be coped with or expressed or they overwhelm us...SIV is different for everyone who engages in it...but the only people who find it "undesiarable behavior" are those who dont fully understand...the shame and guilt come in when the self injurer reflects on thought such as "how can i do this to myself? i must be sick to want this! others dont understand. it must be wrong" simialar to the guilt some Doms feel when they reflect on the pleasure and desire they feel when hurting their sub...

confused, my entire post was predicated on the belief that the self-injurious behavior was something that the sub wanted to gain control over and eliminate. The conditioning i described is the way to change any behavior if changing behavior is the desired result. Obviously, if the sub doesn't want to change the behavior, any attempt to do so will meet with abject failure.

As i stated in my original post, the behavior is a manifestation of feelings. Unless those feelings are dealt with, you're right, another behavior will take the place of the self-injurious behavior.

This is one of those instances that transcends the capabilities of any relationship. A Dom/me can help a sub on her journey to ending SIV but only if the sub is getting help from professionals as well and truly wants to change the behavior.

I see a huge difference between the guilt a Dom/me might feel since the "harm" in a BDSM relationship is entirely consensual. SIV behavior that includes guilty and remorseful feelings indicates a desire to end the behavior and to find alternative coping mechanisms.


I wouldn't dream of judging your manner of coping with life. If it works for you, causes no harm to others, and you have accepted its' consequences, more power to you. My post was aimed at addressing those who sought to change their own behavior and coping strategies, whether they be SIV or not.

 

[confused20]

I apologize Morninggirl

I would like to apologize Morninggirl...I did not mean to offend.

I only wanted to try and educate and help clear up misunderstandings...

To make it a little clearer...SIV is not like smoking...it isnt a behavior someone indulges in and is harmful

Instead it is a manifestation of more troubling and deeply scarring issues...

and while immediatly ceasing ALL self injurious behaviors may seem like a great plan of action, it is in many cases a bad desision as it leaves the self injurer with NO way to handle these more troubling problems...

like taking away a persons very rickety and unsafe raft while they are in the middle of white rapids...it is much safer to help them rebuild or find a safer ship to travel on once they have reached a calm in the river.

(hope that analogy makes sense and completes the point)

I completly agree that it is something everyone who deals with should find help with...and hopefully learn new ways to cope with problems in a more effectual manner...And i also agree that a professional who understands the causes of SIV, and who can also work on the UNDERLYING problems is the best course of action (i have a wonderful counselor!)

and none of my posts are ment to offend or sound like an attack...i merely wanted to offer a different way of viewing SIV...

*sits calmly on her stool in the corner*

 

[morninggirl5]

I think i understood your intent confused. We probably have very similar views on the situation, we just had to get our wires uncrossed to see that.

I particularly like your raft analogy. It's definitely appropriate.

In all honesty, there are probably a long list of behaviors that might well be self-injurious that aren't normally considered in the clinical definition. I've probably got a couple of those in my bag of coping strategies, myself.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: i disagree

confused, my entire post was predicated on the belief that the self-injurious behavior was something that the sub wanted to gain control over and eliminate. This is one of those instances that transcends the capabilities of any relationship. A Dom/me can help a sub on her journey to ending SIV but only if the sub is getting help from professionals as well and truly wants to change the behavior.

I see a huge difference between the guilt a Dom/me might feel since the "harm" in a BDSM relationship is entirely consensual.

feeling VERY happy that you cleared that up morninggirl,as I was gonna say that there is No way my Master would take any pleasure from harming me and I'd never ask of Him aythig that would cause Him guilt or unhappiess..I feel it is absolutely necessary for SIV's to seek and get some proffessional help if at all possible as my own daughter used to do that behaviour.. yes the need and want for any change has to come from within the "sub' it cant and should not be forced

 

[MissTaken]

Wouldn't a Dom/me

facilitate the necessary treatment?


I realize that you, Dusty, have a lot of medical issues, but what about treatment?

Have you successfully completed a treatment regime for victim's of domestic violence or any other program?

I would like to think that a Dom or Domme would do everything they could to help us subs motivate ourselves to be the best people we can be. And part of that may include counseling or medication?

I dont' know what your treatment regime is, but based on no knowledge, that is where I would start.

It seems that in answer to your direct question re: punishment, it seems to be that the lit club sends a resounding "No."



hugs to you hon

 

[mskittykatt]

Dusty,
although Neither a Domme or experianced in this area - i have been through something *remotely* similar with my Bulimia. i hurt the inside instead of the outside.

the reason i say it's similar is thatit was a self damaging way for me to cope with my life - and surroundings and people. i would panic when my stomache was full and taking away that immediate "everything is okay now" despite the world and it's conditions feeling that i got was near impossible to let go of.

it was life threatening before i could take the first steps to stop.

it took a long long time, and *I* had to surround myself with loving people to support me *each and every* time i ate (and therefore wanted to throw up) i had to be honest with them all and let them see me cry and scream and beg.... just one more time, please it hurts....

it's so hard to ask for AND accpet help - especially when i needed so much, but in the end i could never have stopped alone. try to stay in the moment and just deal with NOW. one instance, one feeling, one thing at a time - and even when you desperately want to run, just stay *this time* and let us be your strength.

there are others here i see who want to help and won't be quick to judge - i will be there, anytime you need, PM me for my phone number if you want.

 

[confused20]

why i saw a parrallel...

this is where the comment about quilt came from...

None of us here think BDSM is wrong...we embrace it and see it as a fulfilment and ways to better ourselves...i personally do not feel SIV is wrong...for now it is effective for me...

However i have seen some Doms post on here when discussing the occasional doubts about their Sadistic nature that they have thought to themselves "how can i enjoy inflicting pain, even sexual pain on some one i love!? it must be wrong..."
(not all of the Doms/Dommes have said this)

And i have had the exact same thoughts "how can i inflict pain, even this amount which for now is all that keeps me healthy and sane; i love myself!? It must be wrong..."

hope that makes that a little clearer also...

sorry dusty...i realize this was not your intent for this thread...i will be quiet now...

 

[cellis]

I feel I have to speak out here... I as much as anyone posting here who is not a self injurer understand that is it a coping mechanism more than anything.

Many times those who self injure or cut cannot feel the same things that others feel or in some cases feel the feelings so deeply, they have to SIV in order to cope.

Personally, I do not see this as an optimal coping mechanism. Having been in the mental health field for many years, I have seen girls younger than Dusty do anything to self injure themselves. I have seen the aftermath of their sucess when one girl took a plastic knife because she was not allowed to have metal eating utensils, and cut the inside of her arm at the elbow you could see the tendons.

No one can tell me this is a good coping skill.

Confused you are very right though when you said that you cannot take away this coping mechanism until some other behaviors are learn.

I do think you were wrong when you said it is not like smoking. I haven't had a cigarette since March and still want to smoke everyday and when I am having a bad day it is all I can do not to smoke.... it takes everything I have. Cutting sets up an additive cycle... that's what coping mechanisms are...

I do respect you opinions and your beliefs.... I just don't happen to share them all.

By the way Dusty, I would begin to reward positive behavior... allow my sub to earn points to be spent anyway she wanted which was agreed upon... If she cut, she would have to pay up with her points... I would not love her less though because she cut... I would just try to help her understand why she did it and how she could get the same sense of validation in another way.

 

[mskittykatt]

okay - in the feelings i got caught up in i guess i really missed the point. sorry.

How to ask for and recieve help that you need to change behavior that serves a purpose.... i got stuck trying to reinforce the need for help.

Most of the time with me - i was sated with attention, love, hugs and pats on the back each time i didn't throw up. i could stay in that safe place with my friend and let her love me through the feelings i was going through that made me want to act out.

sometimes there were other things like basicly slaping me upside the head (she is bulimic too) with things like "okay if you want to do it - then we'll go together - you first then me. (she had years without purging)

---but when i had to think about HER hurting herself - Her giving up part of herself that had been strong, growing and healthy it was easier to say no.

then she would point out that is how she felt about me and my bulimia, and she didn't want to see me stuck in the cycle of self abuse anymore either.

the key there is that no matter how you rationalize these things *DO* hurt the people we love. They *do* affect everyone in our lives in one way or another.

on the other hand - that can be a positive effect. when you change the behavior that hurts your loved ones, you also get to rejoice each tiny victory with them - and slowly learn to handle things differently.

 

[Lancecastor]

[No message]

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Okay... Say you have a submissive that self injures. Yes, there is a reason for the self injuring, perhaps she is a bit broken from her past. BUT...

Do you punish her? If so how?

The sub needs to be nurtured, she needs affirmation that she is safe and okay and that she is loved.

Aside from this... what do you do?

Dusty, I can't answer this from a Dom/me's point of view. However, I would hope that if I were engaging in this behavior, that my Master would use positive reinforcement and love instead of punishment. I honestly don't know or have any experience with this subject, other than what I've read.

I know that really wasn't very helpful in answering your question.

dixi

 

[KillerMuffin]

I have to agree pretty much with everything confused said.

I would also have to say that to have a Dom/me do anything to help the SIV problem is a very wrong thing to do.

SIV stems from trauma in the past and it's a coping mechanism that the person has adopted to deal with that trauma. Stopping SIV will not solve the problem since SIV is merely a symptom or outward sign of the problem.

Like giving a shot of demerol to someone with a broken leg doesn't heal the leg but only deadens the pain, stopping SIV doesn't heal the person, it only stops the SIV. Healing has not happened and the pain is still there.

To put that kind of responsibility on a Dom/me is not only doing a great disservice to the Dom/me, but is harmful to the sub. In order to get rid of SIV, the person has to take responsibility for it his or herself and then find out how to heal the emotional wounds that are causing SIV. This is beyond the realm of anyone but people trained to deal with these things. Self destructive behavior cannot be trained out of a person by an outside force without harming the person emotionally. The self destructive behavior must be dealt with by the individual.

The only person who can do any emotional healing is the person who is suffering. No one can fill the void inside of you but yourself. If you have this problem and you want to get rid of it, you are going to have to take the responsibility for it and you are going to have to do the work to heal yourself. There's no other way. The Dom/me can't do it and the Dom/me might inadvertently make things worse.

You will also find that getting a lot of love, caring, and sympathy from the outside can be more harmful than helpful. If you have a needy void inside, that dead space that's so empty it hurts, all the sympathy and love and caring in the world will never fill it. It's a black hole that just sucks more and more and never fills up. Only one person can fill it up and you're looking at him/her every time you look in the mirror.

I've been there, done that. It's not fun and my heart bleeds for anyone in this situation.

 

[Persephone36]

I would also have to say that to have a Dom/me do anything to help the SIV problem is a very wrong thing to do.

To put that kind of responsibility on a Dom/me is not only doing a great disservice to the Dom/me, but is harmful to the sub. In order to get rid of SIV, the person has to take responsibility for it his or herself and then find out how to heal the emotional wounds that are causing SIV. This is beyond the realm of anyone but people trained to deal with these things. Self destructive behavior cannot be trained out of a person by an outside force without harming the person emotionally. The self destructive behavior must be dealt with by the individual.

Funny, I was just about to post something along the same lines -- but KM really I think sums it up best.

You know, a relationship cannot -- and should not -- take the place of getting proper help. That's what co-dependency is about -- people using relationships instead of getting the proper treatment they need by trained professionals for the problems that are altering their enjoyment of life. But until the person with the problem chooses to get the help they feel they need -- once they come to that decision, when they actually want to overcome this, because they feel it's limiting their life -- it's not the Dom/me or SO's place to be the healer. It's damaging to both people and to the relationship.

The people who love us in our lives can't save us from ourselves. They can help support us as we try to take responsibility for ourselves -- but they can't take that responsibility on for us -- nor should they be expected to share in the responsibility.

My two cents.

P.

 

[Sandia]

I couldn't agree with KM and Persephone more.

It's dangerous and unfair - to both parties - to let a relationship take the place of professional help.

 

[artful]

Okay, this is not an issue for me at the moment since at the moment I am not collared. But... I would like to know what you think.

Now... Before anyone goes and gets self righteous on me let me say this. Don't go jumping my ass or speculating on what I am doing. This is just an innocent question okay? I don't need browbeating or harmful words from anyone at this moment so please be kind to me.


Okay... Say you have a submissive that self injures. Yes, there is a reason for the self injuring, perhaps she is a bit broken from her past. BUT...

Do you punish her? If so how?

The sub needs to be nurtured, she needs affirmation that she is safe and okay and that she is loved.

Aside from this... what do you do?

Dusty,...I have just NOW come across this thread,...and I haven't taken to read the responses.(I will)

I want to state upfront,...honest communication between BOTH parties is essential,...PUNISHMENT is *NOT* an option at this point. In *FACT*,...it would be the WORST avenue to travel.

(more later)

 

[artful]

I quite agree with Killermuffins post

I have to agree pretty much with everything confused said.

I would also have to say that to have a Dom/me do anything to help the SIV problem is a very wrong thing to do.

SIV stems from trauma in the past and it's a coping mechanism that the person has adopted to deal with that trauma. Stopping SIV will not solve the problem since SIV is merely a symptom or outward sign of the problem.

Like giving a shot of demerol to someone with a broken leg doesn't heal the leg but only deadens the pain, stopping SIV doesn't heal the person, it only stops the SIV. Healing has not happened and the pain is still there.

To put that kind of responsibility on a Dom/me is not only doing a great disservice to the Dom/me, but is harmful to the sub. In order to get rid of SIV, the person has to take responsibility for it his or herself and then find out how to heal the emotional wounds that are causing SIV. This is beyond the realm of anyone but people trained to deal with these things. Self destructive behavior cannot be trained out of a person by an outside force without harming the person emotionally. The self destructive behavior must be dealt with by the individual.

The only person who can do any emotional healing is the person who is suffering. No one can fill the void inside of you but yourself. If you have this problem and you want to get rid of it, you are going to have to take the responsibility for it and you are going to have to do the work to heal yourself. There's no other way. The Dom/me can't do it and the Dom/me might inadvertently make things worse.

You will also find that getting a lot of love, caring, and sympathy from the outside can be more harmful than helpful. If you have a needy void inside, that dead space that's so empty it hurts, all the sympathy and love and caring in the world will never fill it. It's a black hole that just sucks more and more and never fills up. Only one person can fill it up and you're looking at him/her every time you look in the mirror.

I've been there, done that. It's not fun and my heart bleeds for anyone in this situation.

I also add in a dash of Perse and confused, along with a sprinkling of the others. Professional aid would be most helpful in defining the underlying cause of what YOU want to correct.

(Know that you are valuable, and loved by many)

 

[DustyWolfe]

I'm sorry for being so defensive for going into this thread, but the last time this subject came up I got my ass reamed royally by several in pm's saying how sick I was and such.

So.. That said...

Thank you all for your feedback. Many have different views on this. Some Domme's punish such acts with physical punishment. Which could work for some people. Because any act done towards them would reinfornce the love aspect to them.

Other Domme's have different approaches such as doing something to a sub (not physical) that they don't like. Or making the sub do something they don't like to do.

I've heard of one Domme they ignored her sub and the sub was so distraught that she cut more. So that is likely a bad thing.

Anyone else have ideas?

 

[artful]

Just one more Dusty

I'm sorry for being so defensive for going into this thread, but the last time this subject came up I got my ass reamed royally by several in pm's saying how sick I was and such.

So.. That said...

Thank you all for your feedback. Many have different views on this. Some Domme's punish such acts with physical punishment. Which could work for some people. Because any act done towards them would reinfornce the love aspect to them.

Other Domme's have different approaches such as doing something to a sub (not physical) that they don't like. Or making the sub do something they don't like to do.

I've heard of one Domme they ignored her sub and the sub was so distraught that she cut more. So that is likely a bad thing.

Anyone else have ideas?

Please keep in mind,...there is a BIG difference between *PUNISHMENT* and *DISCIPLINE* as there is a BIG difference between *PAIN* and *PLEASURE*.