Cruel to be kind

[A Desert Rose]

Hamlet:
...So again good night.
I must be cruel only to be kind.
This bad begins and worse remains behind.

...when Hamlet says he "must be cruel only to be kind," he's shifting his attention back to his mother. He has spent the better part of the scene upbraiding her for indulging her new husband, King Claudius, whom Hamlet compares to a "mildewed ear". He must be cruel to his mother, he explains, only to be kind to her—to save her from lapsing any further into sensuality and betrayal of her dead husband. The sentiment—harsh medicine may effect the best cure—is ancient, but Hamlet apparently coins "cruel to be kind," a very common phrase nowadays. [For those interested in reading more about this: http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/cruel-kind ]

This would be Shakespeare's version of tough love, I suppose. (And it goes without saying that Hamlet himself, was kind of a mess... LOL) I'm always amazed at Shakespeare's impact on our modern language... even our pop music.

And so on to the topic:

Sometimes the kindest (and often, the hardest) thing is to be cruel. In other words, to paraphrase that great Rod Stewart song, make the first cut, the deepest one. Does "harsh medicine" eventually cure a broken heart? Or does it break a heart more? Does it take longer to be "cured" this way? Do you find you love more intensely when the cure is so painful, so hurtful? Does it change in a negative way, your feelings for the inflictor or make you want him/her all the more? (I believe there's some sado/masochism involved.)

Or would you rather let him/her down easy? Or be let down easy, yourself? Do you try to drag it out (which usually means topping from the bottom) in order to effect or hope for a change of heart in the one letting you down? How does the inflictor feel or behave with this kind of manipulation?

And where does pity fit into this? I think most people would agree that they don't want to be pitied. But at what point if you are inflicting the cruel reality, do you draw a pity line?

Lots of directions I've gone with this post. I'm sorry if it seems to be disjointed. But I've had all those questions and more in my head and I've been thinking a lot on this topic for the last week or 2. I'm interested to know if anyone has any thoughts on this.


(I've reread this and checked it several times. Please forgive any typos I might've missed. I may not be back for several days but if this becomes any kind of discussion, I'm interested in any and all opinions on this topic. Thank you for reading what is for me, another ridicuously long post.)

 

[BiBunny]

Hardcore emotional masochist that I admit I can be, I find the more I hurt, the more attached I can become to a person. It's a vicious cycle. *Note: I never said it was healthy; it's just how I am.*

And I'm a stubborn bitch. "Tough love" is just going to piss me off and make me even more determined to get what I want. If you want to let me down, let me down gently. I'll be much more inclined to listen that way.

 

[bholderman]

Ive struggled between what is cruel and what is simply a cheap shot. Guilty of both I think.

 

[reignophelia]

Scratch me lightly, and I will be willing to forgive you.
Cut me deeply and seriously wound me, and I will be gone forever.

I like to think it's survival mode kicking in.

 

[nh23]

I have a particular relationship that comes to mind, regarding this post .The whole relationship was very bittersweet. One minute I would feel like the most cherished person on earth. The next like I was just an afterthought. Oddly enough letting go was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. I've been in other relationships that I always felt positive about...and it was never that hard to let go. That being said, it does make things easier for me if I'm let down easy and have closure, but either way it doesn't matter. I know when to admit defeat..and do it gracefully. I could never use manipulation to get someone back who didn't want me anymore. In the relationship I'm writing about there were so many times after it ended that I wanted to do something to get his attention..to say Hey.. I miss you, things shouldn't have worked out this way. I just have far too much pride to do something like that. Because.. he would have shot me down. That's just where things ended up, and I would have been left feeling like an ass.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm always amazed at Shakespeare's impact on our modern language... even our pop music.

Yes indeed - and damn you, woman! I now have an insipid 70's pop song stuck in my head!

 

[A Desert Rose]

Yes indeed - and damn you, woman! I now have an insipid 70's pop song stuck in my head!

Admit it... you know you want to sing along and get up and dance.

Cruel

Thank saw_man for this. I know I am. ;-D

 

[A Desert Rose]

Hardcore emotional masochist that I admit I can be, I find the more I hurt, the more attached I can become to a person. It's a vicious cycle. *Note: I never said it was healthy; it's just how I am.*

And I'm a stubborn bitch. "Tough love" is just going to piss me off and make me even more determined to get what I want. If you want to let me down, let me down gently. I'll be much more inclined to listen that way.

This would describe me, too. And then my friends are washing their collective hands of me because I'm behaving in a stupid way. Do you find that happens to you, too?

They just can't understand why I can't see what they see so clearly.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I have a particular relationship that comes to mind, regarding this post .The whole relationship was very bittersweet. One minute I would feel like the most cherished person on earth. The next like I was just an afterthought. Oddly enough letting go was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. I've been in other relationships that I always felt positive about...and it was never that hard to let go. That being said, it does make things easier for me if I'm let down easy and have closure, but either way it doesn't matter. I know when to admit defeat..and do it gracefully. I could never use manipulation to get someone back who didn't want me anymore. In the relationship I'm writing about there were so many times after it ended that I wanted to do something to get his attention..to say Hey.. I miss you, things shouldn't have worked out this way. I just have far too much pride to do something like that. Because.. he would have shot me down. That's just where things ended up, and I would have been left feeling like an ass.

Bittersweet... what a really good word for those feelings.

I just have far too much pride to do something like that. Because.. he would have shot me down. That's just where things ended up, and I would have been left feeling like an ass.

Obviously, you draw your own pity line by the level of pride you have. You seem sure he would've "shot you down" but what if he hadn't? I'm guessing it would've felt like pity to you if he had given you any attention. Or am I misreading you and reading myself in your post?

 

[nh23]

Bittersweet... what a really good word for those feelings.


Obviously, you draw your own pity line by the level of pride you have. You seem sure he would've "shot you down" but what if he hadn't? I'm guessing it would've felt like pity to you if he had given you any attention. Or am I misreading you and reading myself in your post?

He would have shot me down.. It was the situation. He had obligations other than me, and they were far more important. It was a mutual decision to end things, and have no contact. Even contact as friends would have been far to hard on both of us. I think though that you are reading me right. If I had reached out to him..and he did respond back, it most likely would have been out of pity. I think if I had...he would have responded but just because he wouldn't have wanted to hurt me further. I guess it wasn't just pride that kept me from contact again. I loved him very much and didn't want to hurt him by putting myself back in his life, and we had agreed no more contact. I take that seriously..no matter how much it hurt. Pride was probably the biggest reason though.

 

[FurryFury]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. You can tell the truth about things without being cruel about it. To me, being careful of feelings while speaking the absolute truth as you see it is the best and kindest thing to do for all concerned.

 

[Netzach]

I agree with Fury.

I think this sentiment is wildly abused as "justifying any damn thing I please so long as I can say I was honest".

 

[BiBunny]

This would describe me, too. And then my friends are washing their collective hands of me because I'm behaving in a stupid way. Do you find that happens to you, too?

They just can't understand why I can't see what they see so clearly.

YES, YES, YES, YES!

Even I recognize that I'm being stupid a lot of times. I just don't have much control over my feelings at that point.

 

[FurryFury]

I know people who are all about being honest but what they really mean is "I'm going to, emotionally, strip you bare, flail you and then put nails in your bloody flesh while telling you my truths and it makes me virtuous so you should fucking thank me."

Sorry, no sale here.

I was in part, raised by that kind of person.

I also married that kind of person the first time.

Like Happy Bunny says, "It's sad how much you suck."

*dry chuckle*

I am able to convey my truth without destroying a person. I'm able to do it while making them feel cared about or loved as the case may be.

I demand the same sort of respect and care in return for those that wish to be in my life in any capacity beyond that of being a necessary evil on my periphery.

I may no longer be making much sense. I have an early call. So I'll go to bed now.

 

[RJMasters]

Great post Rox.

Me thinks that those who face reality well, tough love often makes them stronger in the long run. Those who live who don't tends to be crushed.

Honesty to me comes into play here into this discussion. Honesty is like a neutral tool which can be used in either a kind or cruel fashion. Often, just as Hamlet did in regards to his mother...we like to take upon the role of knowing what is best for another. Somemtimes we might be right, and other times we might be wrong.

When it comes to someone I am in a relationship with, I want honesty. That is not to say I want cruelty.

mildewed ear refers to one who listening has been corupted and molded, rotten. To me this means deception. People can be decieved by others and they can decieves themselves...hence going back to what I said earlier, some take it upon themselves to judge a situation and then decide that the other person is decieved and it falls to them to expose such deception.

I see a distinct difference in the dynamics of this when it comes to being in a relationship as opposed to being someone's friend and seeing something in their life which they are either niave or deceived about.

The excitement of a new relationship often is a great breeding ground for deception and self deception. Consider how many people get married in the romantic sensual excitement of a new relationship, only to become divorced not long after when the honeymoon is over.

Going back to my original point of those who face reality well tend to do better. To me this equates to maturity working with common sense and honesty. These allow for tough love without cruelty necessarily being part of the equation.

People often use the phrase I am just being realistic or I am just being honest...when in fact they are really using that as justification for being cruel or to express their own bitterness. More drama has been created via the excuse of I care in the form of tough love than probably any other.

I think people should be allowed their dreams even if they are not entirely based on realistic notions, however when they begin to hurt themselves repeatedly chasing after them, perhaps a little tough love isn't such a bad thing. I think when you put into the context of parenting, none of us want to crush the dreams of our children, yet we don't want them to niavely walk out into the world without some sense of knowing reality. Which is why we educate them the best we can about the consequences...or the reality of certain dangerious things and behaviors, and will take steps in protecting them from those harmful consequences in the form of tough love at times. For me the same type of tough love used in parenting is not something I would want practiced with a person I am in a relationship with.

 

[RJMasters]

I know people who are all about being honest but what they really mean is "I'm going to, emotionally, strip you bare, flail you and then put nails in your bloody flesh while telling you my truths and it makes me virtuous so you should fucking thank me."

Sorry, no sale here.

I was in part, raised by that kind of person.

I also married that kind of person the first time.

Like Happy Bunny says, "It's sad how much you suck."

*dry chuckle*

I am able to convey my truth without destroying a person. I'm able to do it while making them feel cared about or loved as the case may be.

I demand the same sort of respect and care in return for those that wish to be in my life in any capacity beyond that of being a necessary evil on my periphery.

I may no longer be making much sense. I have an early call. So I'll go to bed now.

You made perfect sense to me

 

[A Desert Rose]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. You can tell the truth about things without being cruel about it. To me, being careful of feelings while speaking the absolute truth as you see it is the best and kindest thing to do for all concerned.

I'm not sure I'm being clear about what I mean when I say cruel. Cruel is a subjective word. What's cruel to you (as the listener or reciever) might not be cruel or meant to be cruel by the (LOL forgive me for this) party of the first part.

In other words, the truth hurts. And sometimes you have to be painfully honest to make the (LOL) party of the second part understand. Like in my case, I'm kinda dense.

I can't come up with a good example without making it too personal, but there has to be a better way for me to ezplain this.

Hard as it may be to believe, I've met guys more dense than myself and had to let them know that it was never going to work between us. It was painful for me to tell them and on occassion, cut them off from me. But any continued contact would have only prolonged the inevitable. And the inevitable would have been uglier.

From an outside view or even from the view of the guy, it probably appeared that I was being cruel. I think that I was being kinder by ending it right away and making it a swift cut than the alternative would've been.

I'm not sure I'm yet saying exactly what I mean... but I'm typing with only one contact lens in so disregard any typos, please.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I agree with Fury.

I think this sentiment is wildly abused as "justifying any damn thing I please so long as I can say I was honest".

Yes and for some jackasses, this is true. But those aren't exactly who I was talking about.

Jackasses already have an excuse for just being... they're jackasses. LOL

 

[FurryFury]

So you mean when telling the truth, no matter how nicely worded and delivered will hurt?

 

[A Desert Rose]

So you mean when telling the truth, no matter how nicely worded and delivered will hurt?

Well... in a word yes. Hasn't hearing the truth ever hurt you or maybe you and I have a different take on that phrase, which is entirely possible. ;-)

Yes I agree with you and Netz that the truth can be delivered in a kind(er) way but does that change how it affects the one hearing it? Can't hearing the truth still be cruel (as in painful, not neccessarily mean)?

I hope I'm not muddying up this more but I was so addled this morning when I thought I'd lost my way and ended up in the Playground... and me without a prom date...

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well... in a word yes. Hasn't hearing the truth ever hurt you or maybe you and I have a different take on that phrase, which is entirely possible. ;-)

Yes I agree with you and Netz that the truth can be delivered in a kind(er) way but does that change how it affects the one hearing it? Can't hearing the truth still be cruel (as in painful, not neccessarily mean)?

I hope I'm not muddying up this more but I was so addled this morning when I thought I'd lost my way and ended up in the Playground... and me without a prom date...

I get what you are saying exactly...the truth can often be unintentionally but necessarily painful, but a whole lot enlightening once the moment of pain has passed and rational, and objective thought is put in its place.

Catalina

 

[Evil_Geoff]

I believe this phrase sums it up well.

"Some folks just need to be soundly smacked with a clue by 4."

Sometimes the tactful, nice, gentle truth simply will not penetrate the self-delusions. Sometimes, it takes the brute force/blunt trauma approach for the message to get through.

I will always try nice first. But if it's needed, I have no trouble at all getting ugly about the truth. My father didn't want to hear that his second wife was a conniving, gold-digging, manipulative thief. She stole 7 years of my life and my sister's life from our father. She stole my wedding and the birth of his grandchildren from him... My sister and I needed fragging chainsaws to get through his bubble of self-delusion about his "perfect" little wife...

The bitch was intercepting our calls to him, our letters and packages, HIS gifts and letters to us... *sighs* Oh yeah, sometimes it is absolutely necessary to get cruel about the truth...

 

[Netzach]

I also believe very strongly in letting people make their mistakes, as has come up a lot. I don't believe that I have the right, nor the duty to tell people what *I* would do because it's better than what they are doing, you know? I certainly have made my share, and more pain in my life has been caused by people making decisions FOR me, lest I fall, fuck up, hurt myself, hurt other people, evil winged things carry me off in the middle of 5th avenue, you name it....

so I really really reject a lot of saving people from themselves.

 

[RJMasters]

I also believe very strongly in letting people make their mistakes, as has come up a lot. I don't believe that I have the right, nor the duty to tell people what *I* would do because it's better than what they are doing, you know? I certainly have made my share, and more pain in my life has been caused by people making decisions FOR me, lest I fall, fuck up, hurt myself, hurt other people, evil winged things carry me off in the middle of 5th avenue, you name it....

so I really really reject a lot of saving people from themselves.

I agree.

I think though as Rox said in her original post, she went in a lot of directions and depending on where you are putting the focus or the context can have an affect.

Like you, I am comfortable watching someone fall right on their butt. If I see them about to fall I might ask if they care for my advice or opinion and let them decide if they want it or not. After they fall, I will ask if they would like a hand up or if they are fine getting up on their own.

Another context that is being touched on here is like that of a guy who is hitting on a chick and she says politly, "no thanks I am not interested" but then the guy keeps on, so then the "Fuck off!" emerges....to make it crystal clear that no means no.

Another context is when a person is ending a relationship, and there just isn't an easy way of doing it. They can pussy-foot around the issue and hope the other person gets it, but if they don't, then you got to come out and say it straight forward like so that there is no wiggle room left for misinterpretation. An example might be something like a person saying...

I just don't think we get along any more and I don't think its gonna work out.....vs.....Look, I just don't love or respect you enough to want to continue having any kind of relationship with you. Whatever feelings I may have had for you at one time no longer exist and there isn't anything you can do to bring them back. It would better for us to part company now.

IMO nether one of the above has to be said in a cruel or vicious way, but I do think that the second way is much more straight forward and honest, and yes it does carry a bigger bite to it, but sometimes that's needful in order for the other person to get it. Pussy-footing around can backfire and only make the other person want to try harder and harder because they think there is still hope that the other will change their mind. Sometimes speaking the clear and untainted truth is needed in order to kill any hope so that finality may be reached.

The problem is though, even if you do speak in such terms of clarity, there is no garuntee that the one being dumped will get past closure and move on. Many get stuck in the pain and pine away holding on to hope that no longer exists and usually in the process makes themselves and the other person miserable.

idk if I am making any sense, but that's kind of the gist I am getting. I think there are different ways of looking at this issue and context plays a big part in where emphasis and focus is being placed.

 

[FurryFury]

Well... in a word yes. Hasn't hearing the truth ever hurt you or maybe you and I have a different take on that phrase, which is entirely possible. ;-)

Yes I agree with you and Netz that the truth can be delivered in a kind(er) way but does that change how it affects the one hearing it? Can't hearing the truth still be cruel (as in painful, not neccessarily mean)?

I hope I'm not muddying up this more but I was so addled this morning when I thought I'd lost my way and ended up in the Playground... and me without a prom date...

Yes, there have indeed been times when I was hurt by the truth. The vast majority of those times however the person telling me the truth was using as a weapon and not for good as they asserted. They were fucked up people.

Now, lets say for instance that I dated a guy who not only was boring as fuck but also put himself down every time he opened his mouth. Let's say he unfortunately opened his mouth a LOT. Let's just say I felt sorry for him and would have liked to help him but I wasn't invested in him. He was practically a stranger and I couldn't figure out how to nicely say, STFU and quick running yourself down that's why I never want to go out with you again.

Well, in that case, I might have been "busy" or washing my hair every night.

Another case my best friend, is all excited about marrying some asshat. I want her to be happy but dayum how many times has he left her and cheated on her? I feel I have to say something so I do. "Um, he concerns me because he has cheated on you at least three times." I say.

"He won't do that after we have a baby together?"

WTF are you talking about? Are you nuts?"

Then I let her make her own mistake. What can I do?

Spouses and kids get the most truth but only put in the nicest way and only to help them. Does it hurt them sometimes? You betcha. But the more we can listen and empathize with each other the less it generally hurts.

Going to bed sooon, I promise.