CRT, Paper and Paragraphs

[Weird Harold]

This subject has come up with a couple of editing jobs.

Should there be a different standard of formatting (paragraph breaks) for text intended only for online viewing than for text intended to be printed?

The question arose from an author who was worried she was over-correcting in response to a criticism that her paragraphs were too long. In considering my response, I realized that I use smaller paragraphs in text I don’t foresee being printed.

I find that a paragraph that is not completely visible on-screen to be intimidating. If there’s no visible beginning or end, I have trouble tracking the lines as I read them.

Consequently, I tend, in my own writings for online consumption, to stay with paragraph lengths of one, three, or five lines, With a double paragraph mark for white space between them. The white space and odd number of lines tends to provide a ‘guideline’ for the eye to follow while reading.

When I checked some letters I wrote intended for printing and mailing, I found I tend to go seven to ten lines before a paragraph break. There isn’t the pattern of predominately odd numbers of lines either.

This isn’t a conscious choice to write longer paragraphs for printing and shorter ones for online. At least, I don’t remember making a conscious choice. It’s habits formed by hours spent typing messages.

I know that it affects the comments I make to editing clients. (For lack of a better term.) I edit with an accent on readability, and in the context of stories for posting online; I tend to favor the short paragraph style I write in. I also stress the value of using dialogue to tell the story instead of dry narration.

MS Word 97 has an ‘online layout’ view as well as a ‘page layout’ view, so I don’t think this is a unique thought.

The question is: Just how important is this concept to the stories we’re editing.

My answer obviously is ‘very important.’ It follows the principle of ‘Know your audience’ to take into consideration the medium in which it will be ‘published’.

 

[Whispersecret]

I agree with you Weird Harold. On a computer screen, a window with completely unbroken single-spaced text IS daunting even to me, and I LOVE to read. I've found in my editing and reading here on the site that no one can sustain one line of thought for that long. There is always a place where the paragraph should have been broken.

Harold, I don't think most of the writers give a passing thought to their audience, because their main audience is themselves. However the few who do care about the readers enough to ponder readability will hopefully seek out volunteer editors.

As far as dialogue is concerned, I was just mentioning to Wordmage that I think the reason many people choose to exclude it completely is that they simply are afraid to tackle proper use of quotation marks. Perhaps they also don't realize how boring pure narrative is. I can't tell you how dry it is to read this over and over:

I asked her to get on her knees and suck my dick. She told me she wanted that more than anything! Then she took me in her hot mouth and I told her how incredible it felt.

How much more interesting (and easier on the eye) is it to read this instead:

"Get on your knees, baby, please. I want to watch you suck my cock."

"I want that so much, Matt. God, I want to feel your hot prick in my mouth!"

"Fuck...oh, FUCK! That's incredible...don't stop...suck it harder, baby..."

You writers out there, take advantage of the PUNCH that dialogue gives. Can't you just hear the desperation in their voices? The naked lust? And I didn't even add tags to describe their voices, the expressions on their faces, etc.

If anyone wants to get the basics on dialogue, let me know. If I get enough response, I'll work up a little tutorial in another folder to introduce you to the basics. I'm an elementary school teacher, so I know how to break the lessons down into manageable bits.

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by whispersecret:
You writers out there, take advantage of the PUNCH that dialogue gives.

I just finished a first draft of a story told entirely with quotes. It's sort of a cross between an attempt to bring the averge quotations per story mark up a bit, and a 'see it's not that hard to use quotes' demonstration. It's a month or so from completion, so the lurkers will have to wait until June or July before they see it.

I don't think most of the writers give a passing thought to their audience, because their main audience is themselves. However the few who do care about the readers enough to ponder readability will hopefully seek out volunteer editors.

I generally point out that the purpose of writing anything is to entertain or inform. If what is written isn't readable, then it doesn't fulfill the reason for it's existance. If the target audience is the author alone, then whatever the author likes to read is fine. However, posting it for others to read implies an intent to entertain or inform someone other than the author. Logically it requires a consideration of the readability of the story to accomplish that intent.

I've gotten a few negative reactions to the concept, but it seems to connect with more than I expected to be the case.

Of course pointing out that the more readable stories tend to get higher votes, appeals to those who submit stories to have their ego stroked. <G>




[This message has been edited by Weird Harold (edited 03-21-2000).]

 

[Laurel]

Consequently, I tend, in my own writings for online consumption, to stay with paragraph
lengths of one, three, or five lines, With a double paragraph mark for white space
between them.

Ah, this is interesting... HTML is an extremely limited format - you currently can't do the same things in HTML that you can do on your word processor. It isn't feasible for us to have an indent at the end of every paragraph, so instead the stories at Literotica have two hard returns between each paragraph. If you set your stories up as such, you will enable us to get your story posted faster. A geat deal of our time isn't spent reading the pieces (I'm a very quick reader) but formatting the durn things so that they'll fit well on the HTML pages. This means making sure there aren't hard returns at the end of each line, adding double returns between paragraphs, removing any tabs and double spaces, and making sure that there aren't any weird characters that sometimes happen in the transfer from you to us.

You're all right - reading onscreen is not the same as reading print material. Those authors who get the best responses to their stories are generally those who read erotic fiction (both offline and on) and who are sensitive to what works best (both offline and on).

When you read your story to yourself, imagine that you are reading someone else's work. If the story isn't something you'd be into if it wasn't yours, then chances are readers aren't going to be that into it. Breaking stories into paragraph chunks increases readability. A story that is written as one long paragraph is daunting and hard to follow. Remember, your readers are a lot like you, and they'll react the same way you do to difficult-to-read or badly written stories - they'll hit the back arrow.

 

[Skibum]

If anyone wants to get the basics on dialogue, let me know. If I get enough response, I'll work up a little tutorial in another folder to introduce you to the basics. I'm an elementary school teacher, so I know how to break the lessons down into manageable bits.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I am definitely intimidated by the concept of writing dialog. I am very interested in any advice you can provide.

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by skibum:
I am definitely intimidated by the concept of writing dialog. I am very interested in any advice you can provide.

Dialogue is both the easiest, and the hardest part of writing.

Hard, because it's intimidating at first and because you have to write it so the reader can keep track of who is speaking.

It's the easiest, because you listen to people talk all the time. All you have to do, is to imagine how your characters would say something.

A novice writer usually writes someting like 'she said she would go to the movies with me.' It's actually easier to write:

"I'd love to go to a movie," she said enthusiastically.

With practice and familiarity, you'll eventually get to the point where you won't need to add the 'tag' (she said ...) to most of your dialogue. Even beginners seldom need to tag as many quotes as they do.

For starters, any time you write 'said', 'told', 'replied', 'asked' or other similar words, you probably should make it dialogue. Any time you write the word 'Thought' You should consider using 'internal dialogue' if narrative mode and story focus permit.

There is more to writing dialogue, but that's the basics.

WhisperSecret is a good editor for dialogue. She helped mine in a few spots on the story she edited for me. I, of course, am absolutely marvelous at helping you learn to write dialogue. <modest bow>

 

[Laurel]

Wow - if someone could work up a tutorial or short article on writing effective dialogue, I would be forever in their debt.

I'll set up an area of the site titled "Writing Resources", in which I'll put links to all of our current offerings, plus anything any of you great minds feel up writing out & to sending our way.

[This message has been edited by Laurel (edited 04-08-2000).]

 

[Savage Kitten]

Originally posted by whispersecret:
However the few who do care about the readers enough to ponder readability will hopefully seek out volunteer editors.

you know.. i do care.. and i often read and reread stuff i have written wondering if the reader will be able to read it and see it the way i intended.. also i search hard for the mistakes i have made.. but i'm not educated in such so i know i must really miss a lot...

i think i may not have a huge problem with paragraphs but what i tend to guess at is when, where, and how a chapter or part should change?

dialogue UHG!! i was really intimidated with the ideal of my characters conversating haha.. actually... i hardly never even named them.. but i've tried it a couple times and it has worked well! but i have a hard time trying to figure out how often i should use their names... (ex: he said/ she said... or matt said/ debbi said)

another problem i have is getting my tenses screwed up... in my current story i am working on i've gone back and actually labeled the paragraph what tense i intended and then made any necessary correction.. maybe this will work??

I am fairly new here so i am totally clueless on how to find out who are the editors and how to get my stories to them... also.. i guess my big thing is that i don't want my stories changed.. mainly would like the errors pointed out to me and how they could be corrected.. so i can learn

i really appreciate everything you have done here.... i feel like i've found a goldmine!!

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by Savage Kitten:
I am fairly new here so i am totally clueless on how to find out who are the editors and how to get my stories to them... also.. i guess my big thing is that i don't want my stories changed.. mainly would like the errors pointed out to me and how they could be corrected.. so i can learn

The link to the list of volunteer editors is on the story index page. Or you can Email me through the link at the top of this message. (The icon between the pencil and the question mark, with a stamp on it.) I might suggest that YOU change your story, but the final decision is always the author's.

WhisperSecret is also an editor who would be a good choice for what you want from an editor. She helped a lot with my second story. (currently working it's way to the top of Laurel's submissions pile.) She's better at grammar and punctuation than I am.

Originally posted by Savage Kitten:
also i search hard for the mistakes i have made.. but i'm not educated in such so i know i must really miss a lot...

It's not so much a matter of education as it is being too close to the story.

You'll note that while I edit for others, I have others edit and proofread for me. Experience will help you to better proofread your own work, but you'll never see as many mistakes as someone else.

There are tricks and techniques that make it easier to edit your own work. Things like waiting a week or more between revisions, changing the font and/or fontsize, and printing the story to edit with pencil to paper.

All of them do essentially the same thing. they make your eyes see what you actually typed instead of what you know you typed.

Also, read what you've written out loud. Making your mouth say the words forces your mind to pay attention to what is on the screen and see it as others would.

 

[Whispersecret]

I'm working on a "tutorial" for quotation marks and dialogue. I'll send it to Laurel for approval/suggestions, as soon as I'm done.

In the meantime, are there any particular areas about dialogue anyone has questions about? I'm trying to cover everything, but I may miss something.

Thanks, WH, for the compliments.

I've asked several editors to look at my story, and every single one has found different things I've had to fix. Everyone sees different things.

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by whispersecret:
In the meantime, are there any particular areas about dialogue anyone has questions about? I'm trying to cover everything, but I may miss something.

Don't forget Internal Dialogue.

When the point of view or narrative mode allow for knowing a character's thoughts, showing the thoughts instead of telling what they are is just as effective as showing the character's spoken words is with external dialogue.

Originally posted by whispersecret:
Thanks, WH, for the compliments.

Compliments go where they are deserved. You're welcome.

 

[Savage Kitten]

thanx! i really do appreciate the advice.. i always print stuff out to proof it but i had never thought of changing the font, i can see how that would work!!

i'm heading over to view the editor's list now thanx a bunch!

SK~

 

[Tawny T]

Whispersecret - Thanks, fantastic job! I read your essay on making your story sing - or talk!!! Very well written. I loved it and got some good points from it, and I'm an old writing hand. (Not that old actually.)

English was one of my majors and I had lots of it. I really enjoy writing and people obviously like what I write. I mostly write just for myself.

Your essay said a lot, and I sent a note to three authors to read it and heed it's advice. Their stories were good but if they had read your essay first they would have been teriffic!

Thanks Whipspersecret and Laurel both.

 

[Whispersecret]

If you look way up at the the North Pole, that's me waving at you. I feel like I'm on top of the world!

Tawny T, thank you so much for your compliment. I only know you from your hallowed reputation here as a tried and true Literotica author. What you said about suggesting that writers read it so they can improve--that's exactly (EXACTLY!!!) why I wrote it. To help people be better, more effective writers. <beams> The hours I spent on that essay have now become worth it, just because of you! <hugs you tightly>


Weird Harold! Dang! I only JUST saw your suggestion about internal dialogue. <Snaps her fingers> Someone else will have to tackle that.

 

[Weird Harold]

Bump for Debbiexxx to find