Crowley

[Dillinger]

It's not whether I believe it exists or not. The concept is so vague as to be meaningless. The sources you cited admitted there are many definitions of "magick." Crowley's definition, changing reality through will, can apply to an incredibly wide range of human activities. A parent trying to potty train a child is engaging in "magick," by Crowley's definition.

At any rate, Crowley is a cheap pseudo-intellectual con man, far outside the currents of serious thought . . .

My other thread isn't the place for this discussion so I took the liberty of quoting you here instead.

No - the definition of magick is not at all meaningless. Many words have multiple meanings. There is a real difference between saying "magick" or "magic" - even you, who had to ask, noticed that I had made a spelling distiction. Therefore it is NOT meaningless because, at the very least, it did point out that I differentiated between the two words.

Secondly... "Crowley is a cheap pseudo-intellectual con man" MY GOD - how could you say that? Have you actually read any of his works or have you just bought into the the bullshit that's been spread about him by people without the wit to tie their own shoelaces?? How could you call any of his writing "pseudo-intellectual" EVEN if you don't agree with him?

Hell - I could go on and on ripping you apart on this - its hard to know where to stop and just shrug. *lol*... "Outside the currents of serious thought" Care to explain what "serious thought" is and who exactly is inside the currents? And why being inside those currents would, by your definition, make them right and truly intellectual as opposed to pseudo intellectual?

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

 

[Never]

The Book of Lies:

{Kappa-Epsilon-Phi-Alpha-Lambda-Eta Kappa-Alpha}


THE BLIND WEBSTER


It is not necessary to understand; it is enough to

adore.

The god may be of clay: adore him; he becomes

GOD.

We ignore what created us; we adore what we create.

Let us create nothing but GOD!

That which causes us to create is our true father and

mother; we create in our own image, which is theirs.

Let us create therefore without fear; for we can

create nothing that is not GOD.

Dillinger, people are allowed to have whatever opinion on Crowley they wish to have. The man was purposely obscure and his writings were often esoteric at best. What some find meaningful others will often find meaningless.

 

[Dillinger]

Fair enough. But, by the same token, I can have whatever opinion I want on their opinion. *lol*

 

[sexy-girl]

Fair enough. But, by the same token, I can have whatever opinion I want on their opinion. *lol*

and i guess someone is allowed to have an opinion that you're not allowed an opinion on their opinion ?

 

[Dillinger]

Of course. But if you actually take it that far, sexy-girl, you'll find out that you're agreeing with Crowley after all.

 

[sexy-girl]

i actually have no opinion on crowley i know of him and some of what he was about but not enough to form a solid opinion

 

[Never]

Dillinger:
“Fair enough. But, by the same token, I can have whatever opinion I want on their opinion. *lol*”

As long as we all remain polite and courteous, I have no problem with any opinion on anything.

 

[REDWAVE]

Opinions are like . . . well, you know

Hey, I'm allowed to have my opinion, and Dilinger is allowed to have his opinion on my opinion, and everyone is allowed to have his or her opinion on everyone else's opinion. . .

I'm glad you started this new thread, Dill. I find it more interesting than the original subject.

Anyway, to answer your questions in reverse order, yes, I do make this stuff up as I go along, lol.

Currents of serious thought-- glad you asked. Going way back, I regard them as starting with Thales, the "Father of Philosophy." He was the first known person to look at the natural world and seek to explain it in terms of general laws derived from experience-- the beginning of wisdom, IMO.

But rather than going through the whole history of thought, I'll confine myself mainly to the twentieth century. The most important development was the rise of analytic philosophy, pioneered by Gottlob Frege, Ludwig Wittgenstein, and Bertrand Russell, replacing Hegelian idealism as the dominant philosophy in the schools. In the realm of political philosophy, I consider Lenin, Trotsky, Rosa Luxemburg, and Ortega y Gasset to be the most important 20th C. thinkers. Obviously Einstein and other natural philosophers, such as Werner Heisenberg. Alfred Tarski's "The concept of truth in formalized languages" ("Die Wahrheitsbegriff in den formalisierten Sprachen") is a seminal work. Kurt Godel and his famous theorem are also very important.

Just to mention Crowley in the same breath as these great minds instantly reveals how paltry and putrid his "thought" is.

I've read a little Crowley, not that much. Perhaps you could refer me to a work of his you consider serious and important, and reading it might change my mind about him.

 

[Dillinger]

A number of Crowley's works can be found here:

http://members.tripod.com/MoreEsoteric/page3.html

I'm particularly fond of "The Book of Lies" which also has commentary:

http://members.tripod.com/MoreEsoteric/Crowley.BookofLies.htm

Israel Regardie's Biography of Crowley - "The Eye in the Triangle" is also excellent though I've never seen it available online.

I don't discount the thinking and work of the people you mention - I would however put Crowley up there with the seminal thinker's of the 20th Century. Robert Anton Wilson even wrote a book called "Masks of the Illuminati" which speculates a meeting between James Joyes, Albert Einstein, and Aleister Crowley. Its a work of fiction based on reality. In Wilson's viewpoint each of their live's work really pointed to the same underlying truths, yet from different viewpoints and in their own particular areas of specialty.

Also:

Crowley's Introduction to Magick:
http://members.tripod.com/MoreEsoteric/Crowley.IntrotoMagik.htm

If you have an interest in Yoga - his 8 Lectures on Yoga is also excellent:
http://members.tripod.com/MoreEsoteric/Crowley.EightLecturesonYoga.htm

And for an example of the beauty of his writing: AHA!
http://members.tripod.com/MoreEsoteric/Crowley.Aha.htm

 

[REDWAVE]

Crowley's core

Hey, get that thing out of my eye, will ya? Watch where you're swinging it!


Let's go straight to the core of Crowley's thought: his famous statement "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." However, there is an accompanying statement: "Love is the law, love under will." I have no particular problem with that, at least as I interpret it. However, it is a merely a restatement of St. Augustine's motto: "Love God, and do as you please." (The "catch," of course, being that if you truly love God, you won't want to do anything wrongful.) Crowley was not saying anything new or original. He was merely taking a very old idea, repackaging and rewording it, and passing it off as his own.

I'm surprised someone as intelligent as yourself would fall for such transparent intellectual chicanery.

 

[Dillinger]

*sigh* - Again... where to start?

Summing anyone up based on one statement and taking that statement out of context is what I would describe as transparent intellectual chicanery. Good job there... *lol*

Moving on...

What the hell is wrong with repackaging? Or revising based on current knowledge and modes of thinking? Tell me one original thing Jesus had to say? Or any of your heroes that you listed, that can't be found in previous thinking of one form or another?

Next - taking GOD out of the equation was a HUGE step forward and one of the few original thought processes that has developed in the modern age.

Finally - let's add that context - which does put GOD back into the picture - but with a complete redefinition about what the concept of GOD means:

Liber LXXVII

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
- A.L. I. 40.

"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." - A.L. I. 42-3.

"Every man and every woman is a star." - A.L. I. 3.

There is no god but man.

1. Man has the right to live by his own law -
to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will.

2. Man has the right to eat what he will:
to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth.

3. Man has the right to think what he will:
to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will.

4. Man has the right to love as he will:-
"take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where, and with whom ye will." - A.L. I. 51

5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

"Love is the law, love under will." - A.L. I. 57.

- Summary of the Thelemite doctrine. (Liber LXXVII: Oz, issued by Crowley as a postcard, c. 1943.)

 

[REDWAVE]

"Man is the measure of all things"

Taking one statement out of context? Hardly. It is the most important statement of Crowley's by far, the one he is best known for. And I put it in the context of his other major saying, about love.

Frege, Tarski, and Godel were all totally original thinkers. I defy you to find anyone who says what they had to say before them. Frege in particular was so far ahead of his time that he was ignored and relegated to obscurity in his lifetime. Only after his death did he receive the recognition he deserved, and then only from a handful of intellectuals. Even today, he is little known among the general public.

The passage you quoted from Crowley is interesting. Crowley's work contained much that was new, and much that was true-- but what was new was not true, and what was true was not new, lol. Take the idea "There is no god but man," for instance. That idea is hardly new. It was first expressed by the ancient Greek philosopher (his name eludes me for the moment) who said "Man is the measure of all things."

Different expression; same idea.

 

[REDWAVE]

"There is death for the dogs"

Just read The Book of the Law, which according to some is his most important work. The two sayings I quoted are definitely his key ideas, given the emphasis placed upon them there. I must say I'm not impressed. As a trippy piece of weird poetic prose, it's pretty good. As serious ratiocination-- please, don't make me laugh!

 

[REDWAVE]

Footnote

It was the Greek sophist Protagoras who said "Man is the measure of all things."

 

[Black_Bird]

Audere, Velle, Tacere...

Some people just won't get it, Dillinger.