Courage

[ShyGuy68]

I have just returned from watching the movie The Patriot with Mel Gibson. For those who don’t know the movie, it’s the story about a man’s fight against the British in the Revolutionary War. (You can find more about the movie here http://www.thepatriot.com).

When watching the scenes where the Americans fight the British I was thinking about how much courage those soldiers must have had. To stand in a long line, facing the enemy and watch them raise their guns at you, and then they fire. And still they just stood there, and didn’t run away. I have to admit that in my opinion it takes a lot of guts.

I don’t know if I could have done the same if I was in the same position myself. I think it would depend a lot on the events that bring a man there. If the enemy without reason had killed his wife and kids, I can understand his reason to stand there. But it still takes a lot of courage.

I guess I just don’t know if I would have the courage if it comes that far.


ShyGuy

 

[Jade]

Shyguy,

Of course, I have been no where near such a situation.... and I have yet to see the movie but from your description... I feel pretty comfortable in saying that:

I would be running like a little bitch!

 

[Expertise]

Couple of things shyguy.

Courage yes, they probably had it.

Fear probably played a big role too. Fear of being shot from much closer range by an officer or NCO for cowardice or desertion. Fear, especially in the case of the american regiments of being labeled a coward by your messmates who were in many cases their friends and neighbors from "home". Fear of "letting down the side". Though high minded ideals may get someone to enlist when it comes down to actual combat those ideas have little relevance. Soldiers fight for themselves and their friends who they have eaten with slept with and suffered with (Bushido mentioned this in another thread and it is very true). There are many reasons bravery,fear,vengeance,hate,love honor. The most common are the two mentioned above however.

I think Joseph Stalin described it best when he said " It takes a brave man not to be a hero in the Red Army"

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I have just returned from watching the movie The Patriot with Mel Gibson. For those who don’t know the movie...

LOL And who would those people be? The people on that "Survior" Island?

I've thought about that too, ShyGuy, ever since reading about the Battle of Bunker Hill and the command to "Not shoot til you see the whites of their eyes." I'd be saying, "Can I please shoot when I see the black of their guns?"

I was reminded again of how terrifying that kind of combat was when I saw the opening sequence in "Glory" when the Confederate army came calmly marching out the smoke with their bayonettes attached. "Look! Keep the slaves. Just back off, man."

Scary.

 

[Weird Harold]

I don’t know if I could have done the same if I was in the same position myself. I think it would depend a lot on the events that bring a man there. If the enemy without reason had killed his wife and kids, I can understand his reason to stand there. But it still takes a lot of courage.

Check out the series that includes _Sharp's Rifle_ by Bernard Cornwell. It's an historically accurate series about the Napoleanic wars, primarily in Spain and Portugal, although it progresses through the battle of Waterloo.

I understand the kind of courage it takes to stand in the line of fire much better for having read Cornwell's descriptions of battle.

Expertise lived up to his name with his comments. All of those things are factors. Military Historians seem to agree that the common soldier fights more for his comrades' good opinion than he does for patriotism or any other large issue. For the common soldier, things boil down to survival. Standing in line and contributing to the massed fire was, according to the military doctrine of the time, was the best way to survive.

I know from personal experience that there is also a feeling of fatalism or resignation to being in combat. The only way to survive is to believe that "the other guy" was the one who was going to die. My personal rationalization, is that nobody ever spells my name right, so the "bullet with my name on it" would never find me.

 

[Gil]

A GREAT movie! ...kinda like Braveheart goes west. The plot had so many twists and turns, I was slightly dizzy when I left the theater. (Hmmm...come to think of it, maybe that's normal.)

 

[Expertise]

Hi Weird Harold


Maybe you were talking about the book but the "Sharpe" TV series is incredible as well. Amazing costuming and very historicly accurate. Sean Beane is one of my favorite actors because of that series. Great stuff.

*Goes away whistling "O'er the hills and o'er the bay, through Flanders, Portugal and Spain. King George commands and we obey, over the hills and far away..."

[Edited by Expertise on 08-04-2000 at 01:12 PM]

 

[Patryn]

Funny how movies do that to us, isn't it? I was wondering, while watching Titanic the other day for the 1986518594th time with my DiCaprio obsessed cousin, would I sacrifice my own life for my spouse/S.O.? I don't know...I'd like to think I would, but I honestly don't know. Would you?

 

[Naked Hunny]

I dont know if i would sacrifice my life for my spouse/SO but i know that i would definitely do it for my child/children. Theres a stronger different type of love there sorry to disappoint the men/women out there that have been in my life but my kids come before anyone even my spouse/SO.

 

[Handy-Andy]

Yes the films you've mentioned are good but they have been change so that we enjoy them .example braveheart william wallace would not have dressed how he did in the film.titantic the scotsman who was in charge the watch who committed suicide in film did not not reality and the same with the patriot history is change for our enjoyment.

 

[Stitchface]

I have just returned from watching the movie The Patriot with Mel Gibson. For those who don’t know the movie...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL And who would those people be? The people on that "Survior" Island?

Well...'The Patriot' has flopped in the UK rather badly. You see, I think people are a bit annoyed about it. For a start, its historical inaccuracy is ridiculous to the point where it barely has any claim to be based on real events at all. The idealisation of the American people as innocent, wholesome country folk forced to drop their spades for a gun bears so many similarities to the German National Socialism of the 1930s, and its idealisation of the German 'Volk', that it's scary. I won't, however, say that the director of 'The Patriot' is a fascist simply because he is German (which he is ). If only Hollywood took the same line. I remember some Lethal Weapon film (although let's not get started on the war films!) where there were a bunch of German bad guys shouting stuff like 'comrade' at the end. This was doubly ridiculous in the way it tried to combine portraying Germans as Nazis with the old American hatred of communism, which had nothing whatsoever to do with National Socialism. Sadly this is utterly typical of the way Hollywood makes bad-guy figures using highly offensive racial stereotypes. Someone mentioned Titanic - remember that!!? Down on the bottom deck, the Irish and the Americans, the 'common people', full of life and vitality, drinking their hearts out...up on top, the cold, murderous, spiteful and snobby British. 'Throw another child on the fire, Lord Bastard'. The only exception is Kate Winslet, and she ends up gazing longingly at the Statue of Liberty. When she says Jack saved her 'in every way that a person can be saved', the implication is that he's saved her from the spiteful British ethos and brought her into the wonderful light of American life.
And what was the name of that submarine film again? BAH!!! Oh, and let's not forget Braveheart...heaven forbid that even a tiny committment to historical truth should get in the way of a chance to have a go at the evil British.

(ten minutes and a bit of morphine later)

Anyway, the point is...I hate Hollywood, BIG TIME!...its films are terrible, it creates a race of spoiled, annoying, brattish celebrities, it constantly spews out negative stereotypes of anyone who isn't American while at the same time reaffirming how unambiguously wonderful America and all Americans are.

P.S. I don't mean any offense to any Americans reading this. Peace

 

[Gil]

So...how did you enjoy the movie?

 

[Stitchface]

I was glued to my seat from start to finish.
Else I would have left.

 

[Gil]

LMAO,

Now, please allow me to join you in wishing the Queen Mother a Happy 100th Birthday!

One of very few people still alive who actually knew Queen Victoria. Can you imagine some of the stories she could tell?

 

[Gil]

Ooops...just realized the Queen Mother was only about one year of age, when Queen Victoria passed on...still, She's seen a lot.

 

[Budokan]

People nowadays don't have near the balls our ancestors did. You had to be incredible brave to put your whole life behind you and come to this country with no money and no promise of a job. That took real courage. Sadly, I'm afraid many of us (and I include myself) have become complacent with our lives, and are not willing to take the risks necessary to push open new frontiers in thought and knowledge. It's really a shame. Our species once held a lot of promise.

 

[Lasher]

You had to be incredible brave to put your whole life behind you and come to this country with no money and no promise of a job. That took real courage.

Unless, of course, you were leaving a place where you had no money, no job, and no food. Or were living in a place where you had to fear for your life because you were raised to practice the wrong religion. Or you were put in irons and thrown on board a ship and taken to a new land.... Or, whatever...

It's very easy to glamourize the past - Hollywood does it on a very regular basis. But I'm not going to sit here and sing the praises of any time when people didn't bath regularly, had an average life expectancy of less than 45 years, and didn't have access to the internet.

Many times throughout History armies have been raised and consisted of people who had absolutely no idea what they were fighting for. The only thing they knew was that if they didn't fight "the enemy" and risk dying on the battlefield, the were sure as hell going to put to death by the Lord/Master/King or whatever...

Self preservation and courage are two very different things. And to make judgements about those of the present day as compared to our ancestors based wholey on generalizations is at best a ludicrous arguement.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I have no experience with war on that personal of a level, but I have seen it vicariously. It's impossible to say what you would do in any given situation. You just never know. Most people, when faced with the choice of courage or cowardice, choose courage, or so I've seen in various events in the lives of those around me. Case in point the hundreds of thousands of troops of all nations that participated in the Gulf War (let's not get into the politics/morality of it okay?). Most went without protest, only a handful tried the contientious objector route, at least in the US. It was short, it was icky, and as always, the soldier got the shaft. 10 years later, some of us are still trying to pick up the pieces of it. Courage isn't facing a bullet, courage is facing your fear (which coincidentally enough, is probably the bullet too).

 

[FlamingoBlue]

Funny thing about courage....

You never know you got it until you're tested. I remember being out sailing in the Gulf with a veteran sailor. There were storm warnings displayed and until I asked Bob about them he said nothing. As he started to explain the flags to me, the boat hit a huge wave and flipped over throwing both of us overboard. Well, I got to the surface looked around and noticed that Bob and my perscription sunglasses were missing. I went under and found my glasses but Bob was nowhere to be found. I went under again, this time with my glasses strapped on tight, found Bob, dragged him to the surface and slammed him against the hull of the catamarran to get his attention because he was screaming like a baby.
And he was the sailor. Well, we got the boat upright and sailed back into the harbor. Bob swore me to secrecy because he was so ashamed. He said I saved his life. Candidly, I wasn't thinking about him, at all. I was worried about losing my favorite pair of Ray Bans and how I was ever going to get back to shore without good ole Bob, who, by the way, never spoke to me again after that vacation.