Continuations by people other than the original author/creator aren't worth getting worked up about.

[Britva415]

That's outright bullying

I'd call it more of a smug and potentially insensitive inside joke, since the newbies who start these threads aren't necessarily expected to get it.



I'm also not saying they never get bullied, I'm just saying that saying "Drink!" isn't that.

 

[SkyBubble]

So, they got permission from someone who likely never met Rodgers or Hammerstein and whose only interest is making money. Nobody in charge at Disney these days ever met Walt, and they seem to have zero interest in his intent.

Walt would roll over in his grave at what's been done with his company, but the Walt Disney Company always owned the rights to Mickey Mouse, not Walt himself, and you still can't write stories about Mickey for publication without the company's permission, which isn't to say that you won't find someone who will publish it, but technically, it's not permitted.

As for the R&HO, they're the people the estates of Rodgers and Hammerstein designated to manage their properties (and others it owns) after they were gone. Perhaps you'd prefer that Adam Guettel, Rodgers's grandson and a Broadway composer himself, owned it, but that's not how it got set up.

Who owns the rights to John Lennon's songs? Obviously, John's death prevets you from getting permission from him. But as long as it's still under copyright, someone owns the rights.

The point of copyright was so an artist could benefit from her work, not so a corporation could make money in perpetuity.
The exceptions for parody make it clear that an author's feelings aren't really part of the equation either.

You can argue that copyright protections last too long. That's a fair argument. They very well might. But as long as they do, someone's going to own the rights. And someone's going to be charged with managing those rights. And you can't just decide you want to write The Sound of Music II or More South Pacific without permission.

The same rule prevails here at Lit. If you want to continue one of my stories, with my characters, you need my permission, and if I want to continue one of yours, I need your permission. "Well, I couldn't get hold of the author, so I just went ahead" isn't acceptable.

 

[SkyBubble]

You can do all the Cinderella you want. There are plenty of other versions.

Including two operatic versions, Cendrillon and La Cenerentola.

 

[SkyBubble]

Writing your own take on an idea is fine. Picking up where someone left off without their permission, is not.

That's it exactly.

 

[TiberiusPrime]

I'm not going to read through all the comments to give my opinion. So here it goes: Absolutely no one can use any of my characters in their stories. Period. Nor are they allowed to continue one of my stories. If anyone emails me and asks if they can do it, the answer will always be NO. My characters are MINE. If I decide I want to see stories featuring any of my characters, then only I will write it.

As I have posted on my profile: NOTE: All my work is copyright by me. It is mine and mine alone. Absolutely no one has permission to use any of MY characters or stories for their use in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Absolutely everyone one can use any of my characters in their stories. Absolutely. And anyone is allowed to continue any of my stories.

All my work is free for use by anyone. It is anyone's and everyone's. Absolutely everyone one has permission to use any of MY characters or stories however they wish.


(Though if you make a million dollars off of them, I'd like a piece.)

 

[Voboy]

How about if we knock off the legal angle and copyright law and whatever else lawyers and legislators have gotten us all tangled up in.

Agreed.

If L. Frank Baum were here and now and a Litser, how would any of you feel about his story being taken over by others?

This is a very fair question, except that L Frank Baum wasn't a Litster. He wrote for money, and he made plenty. I also think that if he'd still been alive when Maguire thought about writing Wicked, the whole tale surrounding the development of that book would have been much different: Baum would have likely allowed it to go ahead while demanding a royalty, because Baum had a long history of selling his IP to film studios and other authors.

It's worth noting, in this context, that Baum's own publisher reached out to Ruth Thompson for 21 more "Oz" books after L Frank was dead, meaning the owner of the copyright made the most of its ability to capitalize on Baum's imagination.

So I think the context is different enough to make Baum a problematic example. But to be honest, I'm not sure what I think of Maguire, ethically. I do think it makes a difference that he was far from the first to adapt Baum's IP, and I also think it makes a difference that Baum would have found a way to be happy with Maguire's work.

Honestly, if I was to write a piece that had Baum's cultural impact, I'd probably feel differently about that piece than I feel about my existing catalog. All I know is what I know for myself: I don't want anyone "completing" my completed stories, and in the absence of something to the contrary, I'd assume every other writer would think like me... not because I'm projecting, but because I think erring on the side of caution is wise in situations like these.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

This is a very fair question, except that L Frank Baum wasn't a Litster.

That's why I said 'if'. Hypothetical.

Would the replies from the rest of the AHers vary?


Suppose Mary Shelley was here and posted a story about creating a monster in SciFi or Erotic Horror.

Then some guy named Mel Brooks comes along and posts a version of it in Humor and Satire.

How would the AH respond?

Yes, I'm being silly because that's what these threads often become.

 

[Voboy]

That's why I said 'if'. Hypothetical.

I get that, of course, but for many reasons, I think that particular hypothetical is problematic.

I'm also mindful of what someone else pointed out earlier in this thread: people who post This Same Kind Of Thread are not really talking about being a Gregory Maguire, writing their own self-contained story. They're talking about a situation where Baum stopped at the Poppy Fields and didnt't finish his story.

 

[caleb35]

When a writer/author posts a work, they are sharing it so that others may read it. They are not fucking conceding their ownership of their own work. And yes, they do own their own creation.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Looking at it from the standpoint of general ethics, there isn't much difference between using some author's work one month after their death or 70 years later, when it "legally" enters the public domain. It's just an arbitrary line, but we hold on to it, lacking other options. Something being legal doesn't mean it's ethical, and vice versa.

In the "continuing a story on Literotica" context, I'd agree. In a more commercial context, the rationale for copyright extending some time past death is that authors have families and want to be able to pass something on to them. (But 70 years is way too long IMHO; I'd probably set it more like 25 years after death.)

 

[MelissaBaby]

Walt would roll over in his grave at what's been done with his company

I'm not sure I am buying that. I think Walt would say, "It made how much? Let's make more shit like that."

 

[TheRedChamber]

Bolded changes are mine, not the OP's.

Encouraging other people to be chill about injustice is literally encouraging people to STFU and chill about injustice.

In what world is that not literally part of the injustice? In what world does that not embolden injustice?

You can't say you aren't condoning it while simultaneously saying "I'm totally chill about it, can't you all just be as chill as me about it?"

I don't really see this. Is there a whole horde of racist fans of your work waiting patiently just outside the gates for permission to ethically adapt your work? If they did, is it likely that anything they would produce would be better or be more popular than your own work? If the answer is yes, then genuinely, that's fine. It's best to keep your work closed. For the average Lit work, I think the chances of anyone producing anything distasteful enough to sour the whole enterprise is fairly slim. And if someone really wants to publish your work and they have diametrically opposed values to you, it's very easy to do it under the fig-leaf of parody anyway (though not necessarily on Lit).

 

[Katie_Mae]

I don't write fan fiction. But, I'm of an age that when I was a teen/ young adult that creating fan works was part of showing you were part of a fandom. Like, if you didn't dedicate some of your time to creating something inspired by something, were you really a fan? I'm not saying this is right, just the attitude. By fan works I mean any fan works, like fanart, fanfiction, role-playing, cosplay, poems etc).

Anyone that did fanworks also had the ability to do their own original content and, from memories, pretty much everyone did.

Eg, I drew characters from Lord of the Rings, but I also drew art based on my own stories and art that wasn't based on stories at all. The reason I drew fan art wasn't because I couldn't think up my own stuff to draw. I invented worlds I drew maps for. I invented languages I designed writing for. I drew random pictures of fairies and a village of tree-houses.

More recently, an author here asked me to read her story prior to publication. I did, and enjoyed it so much, I drew a fan art of two of her characters for her. The point is, I stopped working on my own shit to take the time to create something which wasn't even mine, and then went back to working on my own ongoing project after. Why? Was it really because I couldn't think up my own stuff to draw? Given I had projects on-the-go, that's doubtful.

Often when the question of "why would you do fan fiction" comes up, the question of "why would you do that rather than create something of your own?" is asked. Sometimes the implication (or stated outright) is that people who write fanfiction are "incapable" of writing their own stuff, or that they "don't have a creative bone in their body." And to that end, the question becomes not a genuine question, but more of an insult. "Why can't your write your own shit?" aimed at people like you who can and do.

I guess this is a long winded way of me musing that I do think it's interesting why people choose to write fanfiction, but I understand that this thread (and the AH in general) isn't a place where people might ever feel comfortable discussing the reasons why they write it.

_____

When I was a teenager, nobody (I knew) gave much thought to ethical considerations of fanworks. If someone drew a picture of Aragorn and Legolas kissing, who would see it? The girls they sat with at lunch? Later, maybe the small handful of people who followed their my space or deviant art page?

As an adult I think about these things more. And the internet has far more reach than it used to. There are some mainstream authors who are fine with fan works. There are some mainstream authors who are not, and like most of you (including the op) I think that should be respected.

And, the same here. As stated, Laurel requires lit writers to gain permission prior to publishing work inspired by another lit author. And, call me a hippy, but I don't think it is a big deal for me to give permission. Fan works can't change what I've written. Maybe them they'll suck, maybe they'll be stupid, maybe they'll be better than anything I've ever done and be infinitely more popular. But, my work is still here. Whatever I say is cannon. The drawing or writing or whatever doesn't change what is cannon. Fan works are non- commercial, so I'm not losing on potential earnings. I'm credited etc.

Basically, if someone wants to write a story where David (who is straight) and Mark fuck, it doesn't mean that actually happened in cannon. It doesn't change/impact my story. That's why it's no big deal for me to allow fan works.

For those of you who don't prefer people to draw pictures, sing songs, write stories or whatever based on your work, that's fine to. According to the rules, we're not allowed to without your permission. If someone did go against your permission, that is a big deal, and Laurel and the whole of the AH would have your back.

For reference, this is the note in my bio re fanworks which I placed there back in May:

A note about fan-works:

Fan works are non-commercial, creative pieces, like stories, art, or audio, made by fans inspired by someone else's original work. They take a lot of time and effort, and are done out of passion for the source material.

If you ever find yourself inspired by something I’ve written, you’re absolutely welcome to create and share fan works.

I never expected that anyone would want to make fan-works from my writing. But I wanted to make a statement for two main reasons:
1) Some authors here are very negative towards fan-works and I didn’t want someone willing but too-shy to ask, and
2) Well, someone did want to!

I’m genuinely humbled and honoured that anyone even reads and enjoys the little fantasies I post here. Times this by a million if I’ve ever inspired you to create something. All I ask is that it’s non-commercial, credits the original work, and is transformative (i.e. not just a copy-paste of my text).

 

[TheRedChamber]

I don't write fan fiction...

A very nice post that expresses what I was trying to say better than I did myself.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Often when the question of "why would you do fan fiction" comes up, the question of "why would you do that rather than create something of your own?" is asked. Sometimes the implication (or stated outright) is that people who write fanfiction are "incapable" of writing their own stuff, or that they "don't have a creative bone in their body." And to that end, the question becomes not a genuine question, but more of an insult. "Why can't your write your own shit?" aimed at people like you who can and do.

Quite a few professional authors started out with fanfic. Some even managed to sell it - Flashman, Anno-Dracula, Wide Sargasso Sea, to name just a few. It doesn't appear to have stunted their writing skills.

 

[SkyBubble]

I'm not sure I am buying that. I think Walt would say, "It made how much? Let's make more shit like that."

The people who run Disney hvae a very different worldview than Walt did.