Congratualations America...

[p_p_man]

Fifty seven years ago you dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima.

Doesn't it make you feel so proud that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs together wiped out 240,000 thousand men, women and children in the blink of an eye. God technology is so wonderful.

I suppose it didn't matter that the Japanese had already sued for peace, that firestorms from massive bombing raids were already incinerating more people than were killed by the Bombs. And I suppose it doesn't matter that alternatives to dropping the bombs were never fully explored.

America wanted:

a) To see the effects nuclear explosions and radiation would have on the human body.

b) Give a warning to the advancing Soviet Union to stay clear.

c) To test run in war conditions the most horrendous weapon devised by mankind.

For that, 240,000 deaths.
For that, untold number of deaths throughout the years.
For that, babies born dead, babies born as monsters.
For that, babies born with massive disabilities.

Jeez, doesn't it make you so proud...

ppman

 

[RastaPope]

The party's at my house.

 

[Coolville]

A riveting article in today's Guardian Online.
Studs Terkel interviews Paul Tibbets, the pilot who dropped the bomb.
The scary thing is, he'd do it again. Who says age brings wisdom?

But whatever your opinion on it, it's a fascinating read:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,769634,00.html

 

[Lost Cause]

Fucking Aye Right!

In my opinion, we didn't drop enough! Your memory is slipping, remember Dresden? RAF flew all the night missions over Europe. They were really good at bombing civilians while they slept.
We dropped leaflets for weeks prior to the bomb drops, they snoozed, they lose!
My Father was on the ships bound for Japan, they were told it might cost over 2 million American lives, and almost all of the inhabitants of the Jap mainland. More people were killed in the fire bombings than both nuke drops.
I haven't and will not apologize for both atomic drops! They started it, we finished it!
Maybe the people of Nanking/Korea/Vietnam/Malaysia/New Zealand/Australia/Solomon IS/Guam/Truk/Okinawa/Iwo Jima/Saipan/and Taiwan have a much different view of the war ending than the minority apologists!

*I fly my flag on both drop days in August.

 

[scylis]

goddamn that was a helluva lot easier than all that firebombing crap! sure, we DID kill more firebombing Tokyo, and you Brits did at Dresden, too, but look how many planes and bombs that took!

one plane. one bomb. wham, bam, thank you ma'am!

 

[Lost Cause]

FACTS WITHOUT DISTORTION....

Yes, I am extremely proud of the facts, and the truth behind our decision.

In the summer of 1945, the Japanese government was split in to two factions, one observing that the war was as good as over and pressed for a means to end it. The other faction was determined to die to the last. The Emperor mandated the planning for an end to the war, but the war council in Japan, in quite a precedent, refused. U.S. Intelligence was able to determine that these two factions were unable to agree on surrender. Further B-29 raids all over Japan were occuring at the rate of 40,000 to 50,000 dead Japanese per raid. Still the Japanese government did nothing. U.S. policy makers had three choices at the time (as documented by General Marshall and his staff).


Continue the bombing. Estimates were that perhaps by November the fighting would be over, at the cost of the 500,000 figure probably to be exceeded in U.S. lives, and twice or three times that in Japanese casualties.

Invade Now - incur the 500,000 U.S. casualties now. Perhaps more U.S. soldiers would be lost, because obviously they Japanese war machine was not silenced (the Japanese had just sunk several ships...later the U.S.S. Independence was sunk only days after having transported the Hiroshima weapon to its debarkation point...a close call).

Use the weapon - Between April and June, 50,000 U.S. soldiers were killed in the attempt to retake and hold Okinawa alone. So by summer, the U.S. was convinced that casualities lost between June and November would be unacceptable. Civilian and military advisors consuled President Truman that the cost in American lives was not decreasing and that he should stop the war as quickly as possible.
One last attempt was made through diplomatic channels...U.S. ambassadors cited the numbers to Japanese ambassadors. However, replies from the Japanese goverment were terse and succinct "No Surrender".

From the time the U.S. started bombing Japanese mainland targets til the "go decision" was made on the Hiroshima and Nagasaki weapons, the total Japenese casualties surrpassed 400,000.

The decision was made to use the weapon to save U.S. AND Japanese lives.

From U.S. documents at the time, here was the consideration in terms of targets:


The possible cities were Kokura, Hiroshima, Niigata, and Kyoto. Nagasaki was an alternate of one of the other cities. Kyoto was strickent from the list and replaced with Nagasaki, still an alternative but definitely on the list. The reason for avoiding Kyoto was that it was an ancient capital which shouldn't be destroyed. There was no need to crush the Japanese spirit, just their will to war.
Hiroshima was targeted by orders cut on July 25th, and the weapon was to be delivered as soon after August 3 as weather permitted.

On July 26th, the Potsdam Proclamation declared that there would be "utter devastation of the Japanese homeland" unless Japan surrendered.

On July 28, Prime Minister Susuki of Japan said of the declaration, it is a "thing of no great value" and "We will simply mokusatsu it" meaning "kill with silence". That was the last chance for the Japanese people, and was the last day that communication could reliably be used to recall the weapon.

On August 6th, the Enola Gay delivered the Hiroshima weapon, killing 80,000. Post war estimates are that less than 10,000 people died of effects in the first year, and less than 1000 people suffered permanent casualties. All most all wounded died of their wounds in that first year. However, residual effects such as mutation or sterialization have never been fully characterized.

Still the Japanese did not surrender, perhaps thinking that the U.S. would not use or even had a second weapon (quite close to the truth). The Soviet Union declared War on Japan on August 8. Japan was quickly asked if they would surrender to the Soviets or the U.S. at that time. The Japanese still refused.

A recall to the aircraft delivering the second weapon was not made, and on August 8th the aircraft headed to bomb Kodura, however smoke from another conventional bombing nearby obscured the target, so Nagasaki was chosen as the alternate and the weapon dropped on the Mitsuibishi Steel and Arms Works at 11:02 am on August 8th. It killed some 40,000 with wounded dying within 48 hours of 4,000. Less than 100 documented long lasting physical wounded survived for the next 20 years.

Here is a tally of the two courses the U.S. could occur:


Not Dropped Dropped
U.S. Deaths > 500,000 0
Japanese Deaths > 500,000 130,000

As a point of interest, Dresden bombings number > 80,000, Polesti killed 100,000 over a two day period, and those killed in the Bombing and Buzz Bombing of London numbered > 200,000.

 

[Purrde Flower]

I'm so glad I look forward to the future instead of living in the past.

 

[Frimost]

Yet another PP-man post mixing facts with lies, speculation, and partisan opinion. Japan NEVER, EVER, EVER "sued for peace" before the dropping of the A-bomb in Hiroshima and STILL DIDN'T surrender EVER AFTERWARDS! We had to drop yet ANOTHER ONE on Nagasaki to get them to capitulate. Get ALL the facts straight for once pp-man instead of pulling half the things you say out of your ass and trying to pass them off as facts!

pp-boy, we DID do a VERY, VERY detailed and intensive study to see what it would have taken to defeat Japan with just conventional forces. It would have taken nearly a million of our boys from newly liberated Europe to do so in a full scale Normandy-like Invasion of mainland Japan. How would you like to be a WW2 survivor of the Horrors of war in Europe only to be re-deployed to fight yet another war thousands of miles away in the distant Asian theatre of operations? So yes, we could have won without using it but many of us here today would have never been born if we had invaded instead. If grampa is killed then grampa never gives birth to our mothers and fathers and thus many of us here today would have never existed. The deaths from such a large scale invasion against a heavily armed, entrenched, and devoted foe fighting on their home soil would have pushed up American battle-deaths by several hundreds of thousands. Back-seat drivers like you make me sick, I don’t particularly care for the bomb, but I also really hate Monday-night quarterbacks such as yourself second guessing hopelessly tough situations we are lucky to never have to make.

BTW pp_moron, Japan was also developing the A-bomb the same as we were, only they’re labs we in the upper regions of the Korean Peninsula. The reason why the Soviet Union wanted North Korea was because they wanted possession of Japan’s research data on the atomic bomb in order to speed-up their own development of their nuclear arsenal. So in essence, thanks to Japan we have two Koreas and also a Korean War to boot!

 

[tin_tinr]

hey p.p.man what about all those atrocities those nippons committed on our soldiers during that conflict ,

 

[sch00lteacher]

War is a bitch, ain't it?

The only thing worse than war, is losing a war.

 

[p_p_man]

The military reason was only one consideration out of three...

"Truman's monumental decision to drop these bombs was born out of the complex background discussed above. Pressure to drop the bomb stemmed from three major categories: military, domestic and diplomatic."

source: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

In fact the miltary reason was only a very minor one...

ppman

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: The military reason was only one consideration out of three...

source: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Philip Goodman

High School World History Term Paper

Richard Montgomery High School, International

Baccalaureate Program, Rockville Maryland, USA

A high school term paper is the best source you can find to support your position?

There were, in fact, many reasons for dropping the bomb. Most of them were good enough in the context of the time when the decision was made to justify dropping the bomb.

Hindsight is 20/20 but political bias is eternal!

 

[Jedi_Outcast]

from your source:

Philip Goodman

High School World History Term Paper
-------------------------------------------------------
I don't consider a HS term paper to be a relaiable source.


In war you use all the tools available, the germans used them, the japanese used them, the british used them, and we used them. I am convinced that the war would have lasted into 1946 with operations "coronet" and "comet" costing may hundreds of thousands of american, and millions of japanese lives.

on okinawa, japanese women and children were throwing themselves off of cliffs to avoid capture. in japan they were preparing to launch human wave attacks with bamboo sticks to clear the way for the japanese army to attack. Had we launched those two operations japanese society would have been destroyed, and japan would have been practically turned into the 51st state.

My grandfather's generation is called "the greatest generation" here in the US. I am willing to bet that your grandfather was Incredibly happy to see American troop come down the road, chasing the germans out. To deride them for the choices that they made at that time is the ultimate in hubris and ingratitude for the freedoms we enjoy today.

 

[p_p_man]

from your source:

Philip Goodman

High School World History Term Paper
-------------------------------------------------------
I don't consider a HS term paper to be a relaiable source.

Why not?

Do the facts or the analysis differ from other sources?

There are other sites on the net about Hiroshima and Nagasaki all of which should not stray too far from the facts of the time.

ppman

 

[Jedi_Outcast]

I don't consider a 16 year old to be a reliable source of anything, except grief for the parents.

Wait about 10 years until he has a wife and family, and perspective. I didn't know anything when I was 16, I seriously doubt you knew anything either. when he writes that paper as a master's thesis then I'll pay more attention.

 

[kotori]

It's history.

I don't think it's anything to be "proud" of, it was a terrible and massive thing. I don't think Harry Truman was "proud" for having done it, it haunt him the rest of his life, although he maintained that given the facts as he knew them at the time, his order would have been the same.

But an invasion of the Japanese home islands would have been far bloodier, no doubt about that.

What was it Oppenheimer said at the first test? "I am the destroyer of worlds." We came as close as humanly possible to touching the face of god, and it scared the shit out of us.

There is no point in second guessing history. And it's very difficult to be sure of motives. What's done is done; that it has never been done again is, has to be, enough. Lesson learned.

 

[miles]

pp, you are an idiot of colossal proportions. Any flak you get from one of the stupidest statements imaginable are richly deserved.

And try to restrain yourself from making one of your patented playground comebacks.

 

[Guest]

pp man reminds me of the kid who pulled the wings off flies down the street.

Gingersnap

 

[weed]

I am never proud of choices we make that lead to the destruction of life and Earth. Personally, since in my own life I can resolve conflicts with the utmost respect for life and without violence I don't see why our governments can't.

However that would have to be a unanimous worldwide endeavor....what everybody agreeing?....shivers.

That said....once steps have been made in a direction....even though two wrongs don't make a right the lesser of two evils is often the only choice to be made.

That maybe cliche but it fits.

 

[bluespoke]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Perhaps, rather than throw brickbats about who was responsible or why, we should maybe pause for a moment to think about the people who died, civilians or otherwise.

 

[SINthysist]

Yes, I am glad someone brought up the enlightened treatment of the Fire Bombings of Dresden and other German cities. If the English would have developed the bomb first, I see no evidence that would make me believe they would just sit on it.

Ask the Chinese and Koreans how they feel about what happened to the Japenese...

 

[Chuckus]

Fifty seven years ago you dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima.

Doesn't it make you feel so proud that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs together wiped out 240,000 thousand men, women and children in the blink of an eye. God technology is so wonderful.

I suppose it didn't matter that the Japanese had already sued for peace, that firestorms from massive bombing raids were already incinerating more people than were killed by the Bombs. And I suppose it doesn't matter that alternatives to dropping the bombs were never fully explored.

America wanted:

a) To see the effects nuclear explosions and radiation would have on the human body.

b) Give a warning to the advancing Soviet Union to stay clear.

c) To test run in war conditions the most horrendous weapon devised by mankind.

For that, 240,000 deaths.
For that, untold number of deaths throughout the years.
For that, babies born dead, babies born as monsters.
For that, babies born with massive disabilities.

Jeez, doesn't it make you so proud...

ppman

Yes, life's a bitch and then you die. It is tragic that the Japanese didn't surrender earlier, but we had to make them see the "light" and see that we were NOT fooling around. Too bad they didn't realize the might of America. We would settle for nothing less than their complete and utter surrender.

It is a shame that the leaders of Japan did not surrender earlier, yet chose to push on and put their people thru that. It is a shame that they surprise attakced us at Pearl Harbor and killed all those innocent people. It is too bad that thru the leaders of the Japanese people they didn't realize that we were coming for them and would NOT stop until they were done. Stick a fork in em.

It is unfortunate that to prevent the death of millions of Japanese and Americans that we HAD to drop the A Bomb to crush their will and show them Superior Firepower, but we did. Get over it.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

ok pp, I agree what our leaders did was horrible. I am going to be very unpopular for this statement, however I feek the sons a bitches that ok'ed the drop should have been brought up on war crime charges. Its my opinion and I have a right to it.


but

that, as you said was 57 years ago. what is the relevance today other than you apparently have run outta material to bitch about? Just curious why you would want to rehash old news see'ing as to how your beloved home land is not exactly saintly in her actions.

 

[bluespoke]

Just curious why you would want to rehash old news see'ing as to how your beloved home land is not exactly saintly in her actions.

Saintly? Us? Rumour has it is was us that killed Glen Miller!

And, dear Winston was no saint in the war stakes.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

Saintly? Us? Rumour has it is was us that killed Glen Miller!

And, dear Winston was no saint in the war stakes.

LOL I was merely making the point to him that all powers do things the good common folk there would not approve of. Kind of like a "ye without sin" thing