Common Sense Crumbles

[WickedEve]

My Master and I have been together for 4 1/2 years. Unfortunately, much of our relationship is L/D but we do occasionally get together in person. The first time was just a year and half ago after my separation from my now ex husband. I try to be very responsible and cautious about my health. Even though I love and trust him, I still believe condoms are a sensible and reasonable request. Before the first visit, I asked about sexually transmitted diseases and using condoms. He flatly refused and his tone of voice crumbled me. He said he was careful about the sex partners he had chosen in the past and now he was only sexually active with his wife.

He said that he had recently given blood and he knew that he was not HIV positive and that he didn't have hepatitis. I felt a little better, but still wanted a condom. Of course, in person, face to face with him, there was no way I'd suggest such a thing. I did what I was told, then some time afterwards, I worried. I felt bad for letting my common sense crumble. But I cannot bring myself to stand up to him. In it's not part of my makeup, obviously. The last time he visited, I had unprotected sex again. I believe he doesn't have anyone else in his life but his wife and me. He believes she is faithful. Of course, she believes that about him.

He is due to visit again this summer. I will not ask about condoms. Is there anything else I can do? Besides not touching him... Can't a person get checked out by their doctor and get test results? Something I could see? Yeah, a condom would be easier.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

The simple answer

is yes.

It's all the hard questions that pop up afterwards you have to deal with next.

You two need to have a serious discussion, perhaps face to face with your resolve hardened as much as possible.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Oh... I can so relate to this post. It's like deja vu...

Sorry that I have to run right now, although I am sure I would not have much in the way of help to post to you.

 

[WickedEve]

Oh... I can so relate to this post. It's like deja vu...

Sorry that I have to run right now, although I am sure I would not have much in the way of help to post to you.

Well, it's still a comfort to know that someone else can relate. I do worry about it. I'm single mom now, and I have small kids to raise. But god help me, I can't say no to him. It's on the same fear level for me as touching a snake.

 

[Vixandra]

Wicked you may not like hearing this but needs be said.
You cannot let him have sex with you if he won't wear a condom like you ask. Its your LIFE that's at issue here.
STD's like AIDS can kill you. Others like Chlamydia and gohonnorhea (sp) can take away your fertility and possibly kill you if allowed to rampage unchecked.
If you think he should be wearing a condom then he should be. End of debate. It is not a question, a request. It is a hard line- this happens or there's no intercourse.
And if he won't accept that hard line, then perhaps he's not the Dom/Master/Sir you need. My belief is a good Dom/me/Master/Mistress/whatever takes into account the needs of thier sub/pet/slave/whatever before thier own, thier safety paramount. This is a safety issue and he needs to take care of you as such. Insist on it- have condoms scattered through the house (where ever you might play) and tell him you want to put one on him. That way you're serving him, but protecting yourself.

This is partly about standing up for yourself, but its also about taking care of yourself. About being a responsable adult that knows its not safe to have sex without a condom unless you're in a monogmous, we've seen each other's SDT test results relationship.

 

[WickedEve]

Wicked you may not like hearing this but needs be said.
You cannot let him have sex with you if he won't wear a condom like you ask. Its your LIFE that's at issue here.
STD's like AIDS can kill you. Others like Chlamydia and gohonnorhea (sp) can take away your fertility and possibly kill you if allowed to rampage unchecked.
If you think he should be wearing a condom then he should be. End of debate. It is not a question, a request. It is a hard line- this happens or there's no intercourse.
And if he won't accept that hard line, then perhaps he's not the Dom/Master/Sir you need. My belief is a good Dom/me/Master/Mistress/whatever takes into account the needs of thier sub/pet/slave/whatever before thier own, thier safety paramount. This is a safety issue and he needs to take care of you as such. Insist on it- have condoms scattered through the house (where ever you might play) and tell him you want to put one on him. That way you're serving him, but protecting yourself.

This is partly about standing up for yourself, but its also about taking care of yourself. About being a responsable adult that knows its not safe to have sex without a condom unless you're in a monogmous, we've seen each other's SDT test results relationship.

Wise advice. I feel very ridiculous being this way. I've always had a hard time standing up to others and saying no seems so freaking hard for me. I have mentioned "fun" condoms in different colors, and thin ones that feel like you're wearing nothing at all. He asked about me giving him oral. I don't know if there's a safe way of doing that. And then there's that whole, "I want my cum in you." So, if a condom isn't the answer, then I simply have to ask about him going to his doctor, getting blood work (I'll do the same) and then we can both share test results. Was any of this easier at some other time and I missed out on it? I was married and safe for far too long.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Wise advice. I feel very ridiculous being this way. I've always had a hard time standing up to others and saying no seems so freaking hard for me. I have mentioned "fun" condoms in different colors, and thin ones that feel like you're wearing nothing at all. He asked about me giving him oral. I don't know if there's a safe way of doing that. And then there's that whole, "I want my cum in you." So, if a condom isn't the answer, then I simply have to ask about him going to his doctor, getting blood work (I'll do the same) and then we can both share test results. Was any of this easier at some other time and I missed out on it? I was married and safe for far too long.

are you going to go to the doctor and be tested after each encounter with him? and isnt it a little late if you are tested and have a STD, when it could have been prevented? Ya know there is such a thing as wanting to please someone and feeling bad because sometimes its hard to stand your ground on an issue, but next time you feel that way, take a look at your kids darling and ask yourself if they deserve losing you because your Master "didnt wanna" use a condom.

 

[WickedEve]

are you going to go to the doctor and be tested after each encounter with him? and isnt it a little late if you are tested and have a STD, when it could have been prevented? Ya know there is such a thing as wanting to please someone and feeling bad because sometimes its hard to stand your ground on an issue, but next time you feel that way, take a look at your kids darling and ask yourself if they deserve losing you because your Master "didnt wanna" use a condom.

I was hoping to have tests before an encounter.
Besides him, I've only been with my ex. We were together most of my adult life and now... things are complicated. I think about being without my Big M one day, and having to date, and deal with new sexual encounters, etc.
I'm a mom, getting older, and I own many dildos--a man is not really a necessity.

I was at my gyno's last month and she tested me for a couple of STDs. She was suspicious. I'm clean. I never had that happen before. I didn't like it.

 

[Vixandra]

Wise advice. I feel very ridiculous being this way. I've always had a hard time standing up to others and saying no seems so freaking hard for me. I have mentioned "fun" condoms in different colors, and thin ones that feel like you're wearing nothing at all. He asked about me giving him oral. I don't know if there's a safe way of doing that. And then there's that whole, "I want my cum in you." So, if a condom isn't the answer, then I simply have to ask about him going to his doctor, getting blood work (I'll do the same) and then we can both share test results. Was any of this easier at some other time and I missed out on it? I was married and safe for far too long.

I'm in the medical field- Med Tech (think cross between EMT/civie LPN/CNA/random medical personel) so I've seen STD's and what they can do to people and those they love.
Quite a few STD's that can be transfered PIV can be transfered orally- like herpes (as an example). Also chlamydia too, I believe. You can give oral sex with him wearing a condom- he won't feel as much but that's the price.
Yes, getting tested before hand is viable but most guys won't enjoy the male version of being tested for Chlyamidia/Gohnorhea which involves a long, thin q-tip looking probe inserted up his uerethrea. And blood work for Aids, Hepatitis, and anything else thats prevelant in your area.
Even a Dom doesn't always get what he wants- if him cumming inside you could harm you (ie STD) then its not something he should be doing.
And you've little ones to look out for- what'll they do if you land in the hospital being treated for an STD that could have been prevented?

 

[ownedsubgal]

it's not a submissives place to demand anything of a Dominant. this man has made very clear that he will not use condoms. either accept that (accept HIM), as it is, and learn to move past the fears and worries, or get up the courage to say goodbye, if it is that important to you.

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

Aw, man, does this ever bring back memories! When I was first starting into BDSM with a group, one of the first things they had me read was IceRose's story. It was supposed to be true. Sort of a modern day warning tale they told to scare us newbies into playing safe, sane and consesual.

The story: One woman discovered she was a sub after she was married. She had a BD affair with a dom who was also married. He told her all the same things; that she was the only one he had sex with besides his wife. Because she was the sub, she felt it wasn't her place to impose demands on him, like using a condom - a feeling he made sure to reinforce.

They were together for years and she didn't have any STDs when tested, so she gradually forgot about it. After all, if he didn't have any STD to begin with, and she was his only sub, there was no problem, right? Wrong. In the 4th year of their affair (IIRC), she suddenly tested positive for HIV. He'd lied; he was sleeping around with others while she was his sub.

My advice: get another dom. He doesn't sound like he can be trusted. If he gives you trouble before you find another dom to handle him, get help. And if he does give you trouble, remember that he will then be crossing the line into stalker.

 

[WickedEve]

Oh, I remember reading that story, or one just like it.
He's not stalker material. He has a very respectable job, kind person, very loving, worries about me, but he has this condom thing. I do trust him but I think he needs to accept the fact that his wife could be having an affair for all he knows.
I really feel like I'd be more at ease to get HIV tested and then never again risk my health. I'm 39 and still have a few years to go before my kids wear me out.
It's very nice to have people to talk to about this. I have no one to discuss these things with.

 

[MissTaken]

To throw an additional thought in the ring, I would wonder if you are the only person he is sleeping with. How can you know this for certain if you are long distance and with his telling his wife that she is the only person he is sleeping with.

This is simply a red flag to me, based only on your posts and regardless of roles, you need to be tested and should require him to be.

It is something that I would recommend doing from the onset of any relationship, before those guidelines are established re/s. However, for you, eve, you cannot turn back the clock.

If he is worth his salt, he will hear you and honor a request of this nature.

If he choses not to, and "Trust me" is not answer enough when you are with someone is presently lying to someone else, then you need to consider moving on.

Just my two cents, but I am very concerned about you .

 

[WickedEve]

I think one thing that concerned me was the realization that he does not know everything, or at least, things I expected him to know.

He was discussing with me the possibility of me being with him and another man. I'm sure it's mostly talk. I mentioned safety. He said he would make sure it was safe. He would give the man a choice. He could use a condom, which would allow him to cum. Or if he didn't want a condom, then he could be sexually active with me but pull out before cumming. But I'm sure that pre cum can enter you before a man cums. So pulling out doesn't guarantee one's safety.

I started to say that to him, but didn't. But it did make me wonder about what other misconceptions he may have--misconceptions that could be potentially a problem.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I am a nurse and I know all the right and proper things to say to you.

You have said them to yourself already, countless times. Not to mention the good and concerned intentions of those who have echoed it all back to you on this thread.

You and I have been walking in shoes very close to the same size. I understand your dilemma. And that is the best I can give you. I understand what you are feeling.

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

Wicked Eve

I think you should require him to wear a condum. I know that's very easy for me to say seeing I'm not the one in the relationship, and believe me, I've been in your shoes. Well, the situation was quite different, but I did feel much stronger after I said no. My ex, who had contracted the HIV virus, tried to get me into bed with him. Even though we didn't know anything about D/S, he did make me feel the way subs feel with their Masters, or so I believe anyway. I asked him if he had any protection, and he said no. It was hard for me, but I told him no. He never came around after that, but it gave me the strength and confidence I had been lacking.

If he won't respect your wishes concerning safety issues, he's the wrong dom for you. I am having a similar conflict in my mind. When my Master and I finally get together, I would feel better if he wore protection, but if he says no, I don't know if I'll be able to insist. He has told me that he's had many girlfriends, and he's also told me that he's been tested twice for stds, and both times he was clean. I want to accept that and forget about it, but I do have trust issues.

 

[Pure]

I agree with Vix,

A condom is necessary. None of the prerequisites for trust are there, including the 'long distance' thing.

You yourself have outside exposure and should assume he does.

It's hard to say, BUT, if he's *making it hard to say* that tells you where he's at. This is domineering in the non-desired sense.

I don't quite agree with Owned on this, or at least its not clear:
If he's to be monogamous and safe, AND tells you what 'protenction' to use or not, fair enough. In that way I agree with her. IF he's a careful, monogamous tyrant, and you want that.

OTOH, if he's a rakish, 'sow the oats', carefree fucking tyrant, that may not be your cuppa. (Some might call this, the self absorbed asshole.)

 

[ethicalslut]

it's not a submissives place to demand anything of a Dominant. this man has made very clear that he will not use condoms. either accept that (accept HIM), as it is, and learn to move past the fears and worries, or get up the courage to say goodbye, if it is that important to you.

The way you phrase this is interesting. By nature and definition, no, a submissive shouldn't "demand" anything of a dom. However, a Sub/dom relationship needs to be built on trust that "hard limits" will not be crossed. For me, unprotected sex is one of those lines. I like the fact that my Dom can push my limits and demand more of me while still respecting the few hard, fast lines that I hold dear. These lines are different for everyone. Some, like you from what I gather based on your post, choose to submit *totally* to their Dom/Master/Etc, in that whatever he/she says, goes, whether it goes against your deepest personal convictions or not. This is all well and good, for you, in your situation, with your Master. However, if the sub does not feel that her Dom has her best interests (whatever those may be) in mind, this same relationship dynamic that works well for you may not be healthy.

For me, personally, health and safety (as much as any BDSM practice is "safe") take priority. If I felt that my health were being threatened, I might just demand something.

Then again, as I stated elsewhere, I can be an unholy terror of a bitch outside of the bedroom, so maybe it leaks into my sub personality a little.

 

[Vixandra]

He said he would make sure it was safe. He would give the man a choice. He could use a condom, which would allow him to cum. Or if he didn't want a condom, then he could be sexually active with me but pull out before cumming. But I'm sure that pre cum can enter you before a man cums. So pulling out doesn't guarantee one's safety.

That is no where near safe!
Unless he's wearing a condom, he can still pass STD's even if he doesn't cum inside you. Precum carries all the same nasties.
And some STD's like herpes, genital warts, and pubic lice (crabs) are transmittable whether there's a condom involved or not.
If he doesn't believe this- have him google STD's- there's more then enough info out there on them.
Dom does NOT mean diety! You have a right and a duty to speak up on your behalf. Same way a dom in a scene would trust his sub to use the safe word if the situation were just too much for the sub to handle. And you've a duty to your children that comes before any of that.

On the other paw, Miss Taken is quite right- you may not be his only one. Does his wife know what he's doing with you? Chances are probably not. If she doesn't- the he's lying to her, his wife, the woman he spoke vows with. There is no way of knowing if he's telling you the truth or not short of hiring a detective or something akin to that. Something about this entire situation doesn't sound/feel quite kosher.

But if you really want to stay- have you tried the female condoms? That could be a viable alternative for the two of you.
Here's a link: http://quikcondoms.com/content.jsp?ch=safety_girl&id=67

 

[catalina_francisco]

While it is a lovely fantasy to believe it is the submissive's duty to submit in all (which I personally see more in fitting with a 24/7 TPE slave role than a submissive's), and in a r/l 24/7 relationship this may be safe and reliable to live by, it is not realistic in this situation. When it is long distance, very infrequent and sporadic, and with someone you already know is not being upfront with his SO, you have the right to protect yourself and as a Dom he is usually expected to uphold the desire to protect you, (and hopefully his unaware SO who has not even been considered here and doesn't have the luxury of knowing and choice I imagine) and not put you through any unwarranted stress and trauma, not to mention risk your health and safety.

Vanilla men too will protest the use of condoms.....think it is almost a tradition to try and get what they want without using them (and most women hate them too)...but times have changed, and so must you both. As you have already said and demonstrated, his knowledge is very limited and incorrect, so it is also often a submissive's duty to provide information a Dom may not have himself...his limited knowledge is going to bring you increasingly closer to harm unless you take the steps necessary and set your limits now. Being niave and believing it won't happen because you are supposed to submit to him is not going to be enough protection IMO.

If you are finding it difficult to stand your ground, even while thinking of your children, maybe you could watch a video which has real people speaking of their experiences and how they contracted HIV and other STD's. I have seen a few which are very good, present the reality, show those who were unfortunate enough to test HIV+ after their first and only sexual encounter, and tend to have a better effect on building resolve and appreciating today's realities than looking at some clinical descriptions and pics which often seem distant and 'not part of my world' thinking, though for some they work also.

I imagine you would be able to find the video's perhaps in a library or STD clinic/health centre, women's health centres, and most definately AIDS organisations would be able to help. BTW, did you ask your doctor why they were concerned enough to test you? It raises red flags for me as I know of people who have been tested for STD's and it not show positive in the particular test first run, but shown in subsequent tests done in the same week. You need to deal with this before it is too late, and if it doesn't suit his idea of perfect, don't give up your life along with him, just find someone who you know will respect you enough to protect you and himself. Most important of all, stop pushing away your intuition and listen to it's wisdom to protect you and yours. A good book to read which highlights and reinforces belief in the value of intuitive instinct is Gavin De Becker's 'The Gift of Fear'.

Catalina

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

I can't add anything but this

I have watched 4 close friends die from AIDS. It is a long, tiring, painful experience..one that I would not ever wish on any one for any reason.

I can comprehend your fear of making such a request (demand) but in the end the only people you have is you and your children.
You MUST make sure that you stay healthy for your children's sake. The only way to guarantee that is by being safe each and every time, period.

The other outcome is far too painful for all involved. Take care of you and if he still doesn't want to hear what you need, then walk away. It will be hard, but far less difficult then finding out you have contracted an STD.

Luna

 

[bridgeburner]

It's not just the life-threatening diseases that you have to worry about either.

Herpes and Venereal Warts are forever. If you get them you not only have to deal with the often painful and expensive medical side but you have to deal with the shame and embarassment of telling any future sex partner as well.

I watched one of my best friends agonize over this. A man she cared about very much broke up with her rather than become intimately involved and risk his own health. More casual sex encounters also fell by the wayside because of her revelations but she felt guilty if she didn't disclose her infection. Fortunately she found a man who was willing to knowingly take the risk because he loved her. Unfortunately, despite precautions he was also infected.

Neither of these diseases is life-threatening, but they are life changing and not for the good.

 

[heckle]

While a submissive/slave shoudl do as they are told, the dominant has a responsab ility to take care of and protect them. If this person refuses to wear a condom, then allowing him to proceed with any sexual activity is at your own peril! If he will not care for your welbeing then it is up to you to do so. Since this is a l/d relationship, his wife probably has no idea abtou what goes on. But let's say that she does. When he is off visiting you or others, is his wife at home being faithful? Just because he said that he gave blood and is not HIV positive not does he have herpes, do you know this for sure? Has he shown you any medical documentation?

Two of the most important parts of any relationship are Trust and Respect. Without Trust and Respect, any dynamic is just a one way street. Even the most devoted slave shows trust in their dominant by submitting and expecting protection and care in return. Even though you may be submissive or a slave to this individual, if you do not feel comfortable with something, he shoudl respect you enough to take your concerns into consideration. If he does not, then you should put your foot down and if need be, end the relationship.

Just my two cents worth.

Simply,
Master Tom

 

[NCShin]

here is my opinion on this....

I hate condoms, hate hate hate hate...

however, if a partner (submissive or not) wanted me to use one, i'd either use it or not have sex with her.

If he cannot respect your wishes to have protection of this sort, how can you trust him to protect you interests in other ways?

 

[Ms_Lilith]

I agree with Vixandra and the others who said that it is YOUR body, and YOU DESERVE your safety. We are given judgement for a good reason, and his insistence that you go against your BETTER judgement is BUNK.

You are pretty sure he's with just you and his wife.. but if he's willing to cheat on his wife with you, he's more than likely willing to cheat on you with someone else.

Look, the rule is simple: No glove, no love. I live by that. Always have, and I have nothing. In my current relationship, He and I wouldn't even sleep together without each other's test results in our hands.

*shrug*


And anyone who insists you are not allowed to look after your own safety, and not allowed to be responsible for the sake of your children, and all of the other crap that his stupid hangup implies... is not only NOT A MASTER, but NOT A MAN. He's being a boy.

Tell him to grow up or fuck off. That's my advice.