Commercializing Your Writing

[Tx Tall Tales]

This is a plea to all of you writers actually publishing for profit.

At my last writer's conference, I had an agent request two of the erotica manuscripts I'm working on. I'm considering using this agent, but some of my writing friends tell me I'm better off selling my work direct.

I'd like to know a little about how people are doing, and how the different sites compare.

In particular,

• Amazon
• Smashwords
• All Romance
• eXcessica
• Ellora's Cave

and any others I'm not aware of,

as well as erotic imprints at the big guys:

• Random House
• Penguin
• Kensington
• Simon and Schuster
• Harlequin

I figure an agent is more likely to get me into one of the bigger print publishers, but don't know if I want to go through all that entails.

I've read many posts in the past, and I know that most of you don't talk much about the amount of money made. I've seen dozens of our writers going commercial, and figure someone must be doing alright to keep at it.

In all honesty, I'm considering trying to make a living at it a few years down the line. I might even (shudder) go down the Erotic Romance Novel path, since it seems that's where the $$ are.

Suggestions, opinions, any kind of help at all would be appreciated. I don't imagine I'd be pulling my existing work, I have over 50 works on my computer in various states of completion, with about 10 that are Novel length of longer near complete. Another 40-50 outlines. I've been intentionally building up a backlog of unpublished works for this eventuality.

Anything you wish to share that you don't want to make public, PM and Email would be great.

Thanks - I hope this can be a helpful and friendly thread, and not a dogfight. But I'll take whatever I can get. I'll be making my decision in the next couple of weeks and have two completed manuscripts I intend to start with.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I don't believe the fairytales of erotic success, the net is awash in porn, and no one buys cows when milk is free.

I subscribe to the MARGARET MITCHELL/ROBERT BLOCH RULE: The very best writers accrue one commercial success over the span of their writing career. The rest perform a kind of literary karaoke.

 

[lovecraft68]

Excessia is owned by Selena Kitt so she has to agree to publish you.

Amazon is going out of their way to hide indy erotica at this time. I went from selling 1500 books a month to being lucky to see 400 now.

Smashwords is good and will accept pure incest about the only one I know of right now. They put you through to Kobo sony apple and Barnes and Nobel(which is a good market, but may be closing with them heading for bankruptcy)

All romance I sell some on, but I think my material is rougher than the crowd over there is into.

I've never heard of elora's cave, but there is a site fiction4all that you can put books on I've done okay over there, but no incest, not even the "step" that amazon allows.

 

[sr71plt]

I make enough out of a portfolio of roughly 75 actively available erotica e-books/paperbacks to cover a couple of crusies a year for two. That's shared equally with an e-book publisher. (Another 25 are in the marketplace with another publisher, but I don't take profit from those and don't know what they are bringing in.)

I would be very surprised to learn that there was room to be paying an agent as well (author/agent/publisher). From inside the industry I haven't actually seen agents dealing with erotic yet, but this might have opened up with Shades of Grey.

In any event you should check out any agents/publishers to the extent you can with the Preditors & Editors and Writer Beware publishing industry watchdog services. (Again, I'd be surprised if either has moved very far into covering erotica.)

I have no trouble sharing equally with a publisher because the publisher does everything for me but write the stuff (it has to be edited, produced, covered, and set up for seven different electronic platforms and with more than that many on-line distributors). Having a publisher allows me to launch something nearly every two weeks (I announce the erotic ones here--I write in other genres with this publisher in other imprints--at the top of this forum, so you can check out periodicity for yourself).

As far as what JBJ says about selling erotica, there's some logic to that (why pay for it if you can get it for free?), but that logic just doesn't hold in this case (and he's giving an opinion on something he has no grounding to do). To my surprise, I've found that not only does erotic pay better than my mainstream writing, but I can have some here on Literotica for free and a version of it is still selling in the marketplace. It's just the way it is.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

PILOT counter-attacks with a claim that he seen plenty of two-headed babies in jars at a museum in Amsterdam, therefore I don't know shit when I say babies come with one head.

Youre right, everone's getting rich selling porn.

 

[sr71plt]

So much for logic. JBJ shoves an opinion on something he doesn't do.

I comment on what you can see for yourself. Would I be launching something every two weeks (which you can check out for yourself) if I wasn't getting enough out of it to do it? (I didn't say it would get most people rich--I specified in my case that it pays for two cruises for two a year.) And anyone who wants to check through, can see that my titles on Literotica can also be found somewhere in the books for sale under my habu name in the marketplace.

So, you have JBJ blathering on one hand his uninformed opinion, and me showing you examples on the other hand. Yes, it's up to you to decide who is making sense. And I'm happy to leave it at that.

On excessica, LC, is right. Submissions to new authors have been closed for some time. If you are a friend of Selena Kitt's you might go ahead and contact her for the possibility of publishing there. I'm one of the founding authors there (it's the publisher I don't take any money from for what I still have there--and that still is selling).

Ellora's Cave is a major, full service e-publisher. Amazon and Smashwords are the major means for doing it yourself. Allromance is a distributor of what you've published through someone else (although I think they have a small publishing arm themselves). I would be very, very surprised if the big five mainstream publisher mentioned are even approachable by a new author writing anything close to hard core. An agent, if they exist now for erotica, is who you'd want to use to approach them.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

So much for logic. JBJ shoves an opinion on something he doesn't do.

I comment on what you can see for yourself. Would I be launching something every two weeks (which you can check out for yourself) if I wasn't getting enough out of it to do it? (I didn't say it would get most people rich--I specified in my case that it pays for two cruises for two a year.) And anyone who wants to check through, can see that my titles on Literotica can also be found somewhere in the books for sale under my habu name in the marketplace.

So, you have JBJ blathering on one hand his uninformed opinion, and me showing you examples on the other hand. Yes, it's up to you to decide who is making sense. And I'm happy to leave it at that.

On excessica, LC, is right. Submissions to new authors have been closed for some time. If you are a friend of Selena Kitt's you might go ahead and contact her for the possibility of publishing there. I'm one of the founding authors there (it's the publisher I don't take any money from for what I still have there--and that still is selling).

Ellora's Cave is a major, full service e-publisher. Amazon and Smashwords are the major means for doing it yourself. Allromance is a distributor of what you've published through someone else (although I think they have a small publishing arm themselves). I would be very, very surprised if the big five mainstream publisher mentioned are even approachable by a new author writing anything close to hard core. An agent, if they exist now for erotica, is who you'd want to use to approach them.

PILOT has about the worst inferiority complex I ever seen.

Reminds me of Richard Pryor in STIR CRAZY.

 

[sr71plt]

Unless they are fools themselves, I think forum readers can quickly figure out who the fool on this thread is.

 

[lovecraft68]

I would be very, very surprised if the big five mainstream publisher mentioned are even approachable by a new author writing anything close to hard core.

This is the point I have tried to make several times to all the people touting Shades will "open the door"

Shades was not even published as erotica its only a notch or to above your standard Nora Roberts type romance. Just because butt plugs are mentioned does not mean it was hardcore.

Most women (and what few men read shades) would still not be to thrilled with your average lit story or anything hardcore. Shades was watered down enough to get mainstream appeal and let the readers think they were "edgy"

I equate it with how my wife told me her grandfather would add some water to the wine and give it to some of the older kids at dinner.

Shades will not help hardcore or even "standard" erotica.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Unless they are fools themselves, I think forum readers can quickly figure out who the fool on this thread is.

Print it on a notecard and tape to the fridge to remind yourself.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

This is the point I have tried to make several times to all the people touting Shades will "open the door"

Shades was not even published as erotica its only a notch or to above your standard Nora Roberts type romance. Just because butt plugs are mentioned does not mean it was hardcore.

Most women (and what few men read shades) would still not be to thrilled with your average lit story or anything hardcore. Shades was watered down enough to get mainstream appeal and let the readers think they were "edgy"

I equate it with how my wife told me her grandfather would add some water to the wine and give it to some of the older kids at dinner.

Shades will not help hardcore or even "standard" erotica.

Theres only one hard rule: IF ITS THAT GOOD SOMEONE WILL BUY IT OR STEAL IT.

 

[lovecraft68]

Theres only one hard rule: IF ITS THAT GOOD SOMEONE WILL BUY IT OR STEAL IT.

That's how Shades came to be. The author was so in love with Meyer's Twilight books she stole them and changed the characters and subbed BDSM for vampires.

 

[TxRad]

This is a plea to all of you writers actually publishing for profit.

At my last writer's conference, I had an agent request two of the erotica manuscripts I'm working on. I'm considering using this agent, but some of my writing friends tell me I'm better off selling my work direct.

I'd like to know a little about how people are doing, and how the different sites compare.

In particular,

• Amazon
• Smashwords
• All Romance
• eXcessica
• Ellora's Cave

and any others I'm not aware of,

as well as erotic imprints at the big guys:

• Random House
• Penguin
• Kensington
• Simon and Schuster
• Harlequin

I figure an agent is more likely to get me into one of the bigger print publishers, but don't know if I want to go through all that entails.

I've read many posts in the past, and I know that most of you don't talk much about the amount of money made. I've seen dozens of our writers going commercial, and figure someone must be doing alright to keep at it.

In all honesty, I'm considering trying to make a living at it a few years down the line. I might even (shudder) go down the Erotic Romance Novel path, since it seems that's where the $$ are.

Suggestions, opinions, any kind of help at all would be appreciated. I don't imagine I'd be pulling my existing work, I have over 50 works on my computer in various states of completion, with about 10 that are Novel length of longer near complete. Another 40-50 outlines. I've been intentionally building up a backlog of unpublished works for this eventuality.

Anything you wish to share that you don't want to make public, PM and Email would be great.

Thanks - I hope this can be a helpful and friendly thread, and not a dogfight. But I'll take whatever I can get. I'll be making my decision in the next couple of weeks and have two completed manuscripts I intend to start with.

TTT, There have been several threads of this type in the AH over the last year. Do a search for them. There is some good information scattered throughout. There are several blogs listed. If you have the time to do the formatting and covers yourself, do so.

As for an agent, it might be worthwhile if you have some non-erotic stuff to push. I keep pushing the edge with my publisher but I'm not getting very far. It's still fade to black for the most part.

As for JBJ, he has no idea what he is talking about. You won't make a fortune but you can make money. Your work is good enough to make better than average, but it takes time and work to get it rolling.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

TTT, There have been several threads of this type in the AH over the last year. Do a search for them. There is some good information scattered throughout. There are several blogs listed. If you have the time to do the formatting and covers yourself, do so.

As for an agent, it might be worthwhile if you have some non-erotic stuff to push. I keep pushing the edge with my publisher but I'm not getting very far. It's still fade to black for the most part.

As for JBJ, he has no idea what he is talking about. You won't make a fortune but you can make money. Your work is good enough to make better than average, but it takes time and work to get it rolling.

Show me the money.

 

[TxRad]

Show me the money.

If you were selling anything no one would have to show you anything. First you have to write something someone would be willing to buy. Try that first, then we'll talk to you about money.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

If you were selling anything no one would have to show you anything. First you have to write something someone would be willing to buy. Try that first, then we'll talk to you about money.

TRANSLATION: He aint got no money.

 

[Ironiclaconic]

A lot of erotica readers simply assume that if it's self-published, it must suck, and they choose the stuff which has been vetted by publishers. On the off chance they find a good free work, they describe it defensively.

That isn't all readers but its a very large number of them (particularly women). I am a member of several of the largest erotica reader groups on Goodreads, and I see this again and again.

This is an important thing to know: the paying market for erotica (unless writing a high demand niche market like incest) is overwhelmingly female, and the popular themes are 50 Shades and Twilight knockoffs, or romance.

 

[R. Richard]

Excessia is owned by Selena Kitt so she has to agree to publish you. I was run through several time wasting exercises, until it became clear that she had no intention to publish anything of mine.

Amazon is okay, but they really don't like erotica. My best seller was suddenly blocked, with no explanation. I am having some success with my latest "Time Master" series.

Smashwords is good, but you have to meet their submission criteria, which may take some doing. They don't like cover image nudity at all.

All romance does sell some of my stuff, but I think that my material is not really what their typical customer is looking for.

I have some stuff in fiction4all, but it's a hard core BDSM site that wants the heroine, her mother and her sisters, kidnapped, raped and sold into slavery.

JMHO

 

[Tx Tall Tales]

Thanks so much for the responses.

I know a little of how Amazon works. I make about a $1000 a year for the last 7 years with a non-fiction book of mine that I've self-published, not an eBook. Almost a third of the sales come around Christmas time, with the payment check arriving just in time to pay off Christmas expenses.

I have a lot of friends and knowledgeable associates in the traditional print industry. I've been attending writer's groups and writer's conferences for several years with my mainstream writing. The God's honest truth is, Literotica is the platform that did the most to allow me to hone my writing skills, develop a voice and style, and escape from so many of the mistakes I made early on writing fiction.

RR - I'm aware Selena Kitt is the publisher of Excessica. I remember when she first started it, and have tracked her amazing success. I noticed that the message that they were no longer accepting new author's is gone, that's why I added Excessica to the list

sr71plt, I appreciate the advice and comments. You've always been great about openly discussing your own writing and the success you've experienced is encouraging. You have found a successful niche, I would need to find my own. I have some ideas...

Same to you lovecraft68. Different market, different platform, that's one of the reason's I'm reaching out is to get the diversity of opinion and experience. Most people will know what worked for them, but not as much about other possibilities.

TxRad - I have researched and read previous threads. I've gleaned what I can from them. One issue is the market is continually changing - eg. Lovecraft68's comments about Amazon, B&N's folding, etc. If there's a particularly good thread that I've missed, I appreciate pointing it out.

I have never heard anyone talk about an agent on here, or if I have I don't recall it. Then again, I don't spend that much time in the forums. I was surprised how eager the agent was who I spoke to. She was convinced there was a market for the stuff I provided her. I will admit, it was more female centric than most of the stories I post here. Just wondering if anyone else has tried that route with any success. I agree with ironiclaconic. Erotica is a woman's world. The vast majority of the sales are driven my women. I have no problem with that. I'm a rather eclectic writer, and have no problem writing a romance or two. I'd prefer not to be formulaic, but it's hard to escape what works.


I would so LOVE to see this particular forum have more open discussions about things like marketing your work, building a fan base, creating a platform. Blogs, Twitter, Facebook. All kinds of Social Media. Attending conferences, getting interviewed, having your work reviewed. All the other things that go into being a successful writer.

Thanks for the comments so far. I know there's a lot of other successful writers out there. How about it guys? A little more fuel for the fire?

 

[sr71plt]

The eXcessica Web site still lists submissions as closed to new authors.

And the characterization of the publishing house as owned by Selena Kitt is technically incorrect. It is supposed to be a cooperative, where all of the authors help with the work. My help was in letting all my profits go back into the publishing house (I still have 33 active works with eXcessica) and editing, with no edits having been sent my way for a couple of years--and I see that my name is no longer on the masthead. Whatever profits there are from my books there, though, are still going back into eXcessica (or in someone's pocket, I suppose). Although formally a cooperative, I wouldn't disagree that Selena Kitt functionally owns it, though.

On agents, be sure to try to check the agent out with Preditors & Editors and Writer Beware (and maybe run a keyword search at Absolute Write, where the Writer Beware people are--or have been--active). Because it's both unusual for an agent to be into erotica and for an agent to drum up business with authors who don't have a good (in mainstream terms) profit history yet.

An agent is yet another cut (along with the publisher and author and any other services contracted) into the profits, and although there are profits in erotica most of it is in the accumulation of sales on a high volume of offerings, not one or two works.

 

[sr71plt]

Show me the money.

Why in the hell would anyone do that? You're not a player on the market and who cares what you think? You're blind as a bat to the evidence in front of you anyway. If you or any other potential author of erotica wants to believe what you do, it's certainly fine for those in the market. It cuts down on the number of competitors in the market.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Why in the hell would anyone do that? You're not a player on the market and who cares what you think? You're blind as a bat to the evidence in front of you anyway. If you or any other potential author of erotica wants to believe what you do, it's certainly fine for those in the market. It cuts down on the number of competitors in the market.

The only cruising you do is along Main Street on Saturday nights.

 

[TxRad]

Poor JBJ, when he ain't got nothing worthwhile to say, a good slam is always the answer.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, was that a good slam? I thought it was just sort of a meaningless brain fart.

 

[TxRad]

Oh, was that a good slam? I thought it was just sort of a meaningless brain fart.

For him, that's one and the same.