Columbia, NASA, and the Super Collider.

Ishmael

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The recent tragedy has once again brought the worlds focus on the US Space Program. The Space Shuttle is the most complicated mechanism yet built by man. That some were going to be lost is a given. Murphy and his laws preordained that eventuality the moment the first drawing was made. We will lose more Shuttles and more astronauts. That is the price that must be paid to push forward new frontiers. The Presidents new incentive to reach Mars is also a goal worthy of the best efforts of our scientists and the explorers that will journey there.

But I have a serious problem with the Space Program as currently administered. NASA has become an engineering entity. The NASA budget managers are underwriting Very little hard science. In order for the human race to reap the benefits of space, it first must be commercialized. That means the government monopoly on space and launch vehicles MUST end. It's time for serious entrepreneurs to get involved with the commercialization of space. Water and minerals of all sorts are there for the taking. Relieving the pressure on the Earth’s resources is worth the effort. There are also certain benefits to manufacture of certain products and intermediate materials in the micro gravity of space.

Several years ago the budget for the super-collider project was cut and the project canceled. NASA was the greatest beneficiary of these funds that were freed up. Practical space travel will NEVER be achieved with chemical or nuclear propulsion systems. Brussard Ram Jets just aren't going to cut the mustard. Practical space travel means traveling at least at the speed of light or faster, if possible. And that possibility will not be known unless we can experiment with the very fabric of space time itself on a quantum level, or something similar. And that's where the super-collider came in. Pure physics on a sub-particle level. The project addressing pure science was scrapped for an engineering effort.

While engineering efforts are laudable, they can be done by private industry without the oversight of the Government. Or the necessity for the government to take ownership of the project. While it is convenient to say that the efforts of NASA belong to all, the fact of the matter is that what benefits were reaped were damned expensive, and are getting more so by the day. NASA has not had any major impetus or goals beyond engineering for 20 years now. It has become a bloated bureaucracy much more concerned with it's own survival and monopoly on space than thinking in terms of grand high risk ventures and the 'run lean', keep it simple attitudes of the 60's.

What can be done? I don't know at this point. But the commercialization of space must begin soon. That is the only way that the frontier will truly be pushed back. And the only way that the 'dreamers', doers, and misfits of our society can push outward without having to kowtow to the governments largess.

Ishmael
 
Don't go being all nice to me for this, but I agree with your post.
 
It will never happen. unfortunatley.
There are too many military concerns (I.E. Kinetic strikes done by independant unmonitored groups)
There are too many legal concerns (technically according to treaties, space is the U.N.s)
and there is too much apathy in the general populace, people don't care about expanding beyond the earth, their too stupid and short sighted to see that we must one day colonize the solar system or at the very least harvest its resources.
 
Aquila said:
It will never happen. unfortunatley.
There are too many military concerns (I.E. Kinetic strikes done by independant unmonitored groups)
There are too many legal concerns (technically according to treaties, space is the U.N.s)
and there is too much apathy in the general populace, people don't care about expanding beyond the earth, their too stupid and short sighted to see that we must one day colonize the solar system or at the very least harvest its resources.

I love that. The UN claims space. How much of nothing do they claim? How far out? Just the solar system, or the universe perhaps. Does anyone else see the absolute obsurdity of these claims?

Fuck the UN. Fuck the military. Fuck NASA. None of those bureacracies are going to get the job done.

Ishmael
 
Aquila said:
It will never happen. unfortunatley.
There are too many military concerns (I.E. Kinetic strikes done by independant unmonitored groups)
There are too many legal concerns (technically according to treaties, space is the U.N.s)
and there is too much apathy in the general populace, people don't care about expanding beyond the earth, their too stupid and short sighted to see that we must one day colonize the solar system or at the very least harvest its resources.

Don't be too sure about that.

There are at least two private organizations involved in private space exploration. The Artemis Society International and it's child entity The Lunar Resource Company are heavily involved, and have a number of incredible people working with them. Along with them, you can add The Planetary Soceity which works not only as a private-enterprise group but also as a lobbying organization. The Space Frontier Federation has also been doing yeoman's work in the private exploration area.

Most of these groups, and especially ASI, have been working closely with companies and individuals who are developing alternate man-rated space launch capable vehicles and who are interested in private ventures into space. I'd say that we're much closer than most folks think.
 
Ishmael said:
I love that. The UN claims space. How much of nothing do they claim? How far out? Just the solar system, or the universe perhaps. Does anyone else see the absolute obsurdity of these claims?

Fuck the UN. Fuck the military. Fuck NASA. None of those bureacracies are going to get the job done.

Ishmael

They claim the planets of the solar system and the moon.
Technically the U.S. should claim the moon but the U.N. Gets it.
also according to treaty should extra terestrials actually exist U.N. members are required to keep it secret until the U.N. can deal with it. as they will be the go between

(yeah I read up on this, it interested me) and I hate the U.N. as much as a guy can.
 
Maybe this is stupid and short-sighted of me, but I think we ought to take care of solving our problems on Earth before we carry them into space. We solved a lot of problems in the last century, but we still have a long way to go.

As for subparticle research resulting in advances in high-speed travel, that's a pretty expensive project for a bold hope with little probability.
 
Aquila said:
They claim the planets of the solar system and the moon.
Technically the U.S. should claim the moon but the U.N. Gets it.
also according to treaty should extra terestrials actually exist U.N. members are required to keep it secret until the U.N. can deal with it. as they will be the go between

(yeah I read up on this, it interested me) and I hate the U.N. as much as a guy can.

By the time the UN agrees on how to treat with any aliens, it will be too damn late to do anuything if we have to. It's still absurd.

Ishmael
 
phrodeau said:
Maybe this is stupid and short-sighted of me, but I think we ought to take care of solving our problems on Earth before we carry them into space. We solved a lot of problems in the last century, but we still have a long way to go.

As for subparticle research resulting in advances in high-speed travel, that's a pretty expensive project for a bold hope with little probability.
The point being that our problem is overpopulation on a minor scale. don't you think it prudent to advance in technology now so that when the whole damn world is like downtown tokyo we can perhaps start to colonize mars in self contained habitats?
 
Aquila said:
The point being that our problem is overpopulation on a minor scale. don't you think it prudent to advance in technology now so that when the whole damn world is like downtown tokyo we can perhaps start to colonize mars in self contained habitats?

So we can overpopulate Mars too? Let's think about this.
 
phrodeau said:
So we can overpopulate Mars too? Let's think about this.
what do you expect people to do? stop breeding? I'm sorry I want a family, some gov't or hippy comes up to me and informs me I can't have a child because Im not on the approved list is going to get a bullet in the brain pan.
 
sorry... that sounded bad, the points valid,, im just pissed at something else. didn't mean to take it out on you.
 
The whole concept here is to take space out of the hands of the bureaucrats and put in the hands of investors.

The super-collider is pure science. That is a project that should be underwritten by the government.

The concept that the UN is going to administer the raw materials of space is beyond the pale. That is one of the stronger arguments for disbanding the UN that I can put forth.

Ishmael
 
Yes, Agreed. NASA Should Get With The Super Collider.

Enjoy the fun of Super Collider
Bumper Cars. Fun for everyone 40" or taller.

Bumper Cars....................4 tickets, or $3.00

bumpercars.jpg
 
My sources say it is about the same for 2003 as 1993--$14billion a year.

Meanwhile military spending is supposed to vault from $350billion to $399 billion a year (not taking into account any actual wars) in the next 2 years.
 
Ishmael said:
Practical space travel will NEVER be achieved with chemical or nuclear propulsion systems. Brussard Ram Jets just aren't going to cut the mustard. Practical space travel means traveling at least at the speed of light or faster, if possible. And that possibility will not be known unless we can experiment with the very fabric of space time itself on a quantum level, or something similar.

After sitting through a few physics classes it occured to me that launching vessels with wings and fuselages into space is a pretty silly idea. (It also made it harder for me to accept movies with spaceships swooping around like WWII planes in zero G and zero atmosphere.)

So I got to thinking: What would an efficient and functional spacecraft really look like? And how would it be powered? My conclusions: It would have to be spherical and move under magnetic power, much like the planets of our solar system. Magnetism could be used to launch, steer, and guide them back into the atmosphere.

I was never able to figure out excatly how this could be accomplished since I got "C"'s in physics and my last name isn't Tesla. But I'm sure there are some astrophysicysts out there who would agree with me. :)
 
70/30 said:
My sources say it is about the same for 2003 as 1993--$14billion a year.

Meanwhile military spending is supposed to vault from $350billion to $399 billion a year (not taking into account any actual wars) in the next 2 years.

Great on NASA. But what has the military budget got to do with anything. Want to bitch about it? Start a thread. Simple.

Ishmael
 
Aquila said:
It will never happen. unfortunatley.
There are too many military concerns (I.E. Kinetic strikes done by independant unmonitored groups)
There are too many legal concerns (technically according to treaties, space is the U.N.s)
and there is too much apathy in the general populace, people don't care about expanding beyond the earth, their too stupid and short sighted to see that we must one day colonize the solar system or at the very least harvest its resources.

Hey! Stupid and short sighted is what this country was built on!
 
I'm not bitching, just pointing out the fact that NASA isn't America's fastest bloating bureaucracy. Some of your more ardent followers may have come to that conclusion after reading your initial post.
 
The spacetalk is over my head today. I have an opinion (don't I always) but darned if I can put it into words.

I do know a bit about overpopulation.

The world will never look like downtown Tokyo. That's a fatalistic and Malthusian idea that's just not bearing any evidentiary fruit.

As the world industrializes, the birthrate slows. You can look at countries like Italy who are actually worried about population declination and the US where population is held steady by the influx of immigrants rather than by babies born. These are not isolated. As we move from agrarian societies to industirial societies, children become more a fiduciary burden and less of a retirement plan/source of cheap labor.

So while space exploration is a must (the sun will one day die, don't ya know), it's not due to population. It's more due to the needs of humans to expand and conquer new territory.
 
phrodeau said:
Maybe this is stupid and short-sighted of me, but I think we ought to take care of solving our problems on Earth before we carry them into space. We solved a lot of problems in the last century, but we still have a long way to go.

As for subparticle research resulting in advances in high-speed travel, that's a pretty expensive project for a bold hope with little probability.

70% of the earth's surface is covered by water.

We've got lots of frontier left to explore before saddling up for Mars in some silly electro-magnetic light speed General Motors product.

That being said... I heard that Ishmael would like to see Uranus sometime.

:)

Lance
 
70/30 said:
I'm not bitching, just pointing out the fact that NASA isn't America's fastest bloating bureaucracy. Some of your more ardent followers may have come to that conclusion after reading your initial post.

Oh, you mean the ones that think they can read minds or between the lines?

Ishmael
 
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