College Books

[Guest]

So....you're all editors (mostly, barring questioners like myself or those seeking editors), and I have a question.

I am taking a creative writing course, and it required me to buy two books. They seem comprehensive, and I was wondering if anyone had a take on them in comparison to other books on writing/editing.

Writing With a Thesis (Sarah and David Skwire, published by Thompson and Wadsworth) a book on the mechanics of writing, but with little in the way of editorial lessons

The Little, Brown Handbook (Jane Aaron, Ramses Fowler, published by Pearson Higher Education), a book on the mechanics of writing with heavy emphasis on the editorial aspects.

has anyone else ever used these books? They are current, but when the classes are over, I am going to need different books for the next one. Should I sell them, and buy the CMS? Or sould I hold them in lieu of the CMS? Or should I keep them and GET the CMS?

They ran me about $150, so really I want to know if they are any better or worse than the (much) less expensive CMS.

 

[sr71plt]

So....you're all editors (mostly, barring questioners like myself or those seeking editors), and I have a question.

I am taking a creative writing course, and it required me to buy two books. They seem comprehensive, and I was wondering if anyone had a take on them in comparison to other books on writing/editing.





has anyone else ever used these books? They are current, but when the classes are over, I am going to need different books for the next one. Should I sell them, and buy the CMS? Or sould I hold them in lieu of the CMS? Or should I keep them and GET the CMS?

They ran me about $150, so really I want to know if they are any better or worse than the (much) less expensive CMS.

I don't see where they will do you much good (not much harm either) in writing fiction. I wouldn't think that by the end of the course you'd have some idea whether they are worthwhile keeping.

CMS won't help you much with how to write. It's for how to present it. And, if that's what you are looking for, it trumps the two you cited if you are interested in writing for publication.

 

[Guest]

I don't see where they will do you much good (not much harm either) in writing fiction. I wouldn't think that by the end of the course you'd have some idea whether they are worthwhile keeping.

CMS won't help you much with how to write. It's for how to present it. And, if that's what you are looking for, it trumps the two you cited if you are interested in writing for publication.

Thats the problem, though. I took (am taking) the course to learn how to write, and I am not learning much. It was a core requirement for my degree, but I had expected more. Now I am near to finishing the class and I am wondering if I wasted my money on the books. I would like to try my hand at editing, as well, because I think it will force me to become a better author. that is why I considered the CMS, and it's kinda the standard from everyone I have talked to, and much cheaper than the books I bought.

So, did I waste my money? Should I keep them and try to use them? Should I sell them and try to recoup my losses, then buy the CMS?

I expect I will do the last.

 

[_Lynn_]

Thats the problem, though. I took (am taking) the course to learn how to write, and I am not learning much. It was a core requirement for my degree, but I had expected more. Now I am near to finishing the class and I am wondering if I wasted my money on the books. I would like to try my hand at editing, as well, because I think it will force me to become a better author. that is why I considered the CMS, and it's kinda the standard from everyone I have talked to, and much cheaper than the books I bought.

So, did I waste my money? Should I keep them and try to use them? Should I sell them and try to recoup my losses, then buy the CMS?

I expect I will do the last.

Even for writing here I think the CMS helps. It's the only book I use even though I have others.

 

[sr71plt]

Even for writing here I think the CMS helps. It's the only book I use even though I have others.

They did add a grammar chapter with the last edition. I'm sure that helps, but I haven't referred to it in an edit, as I can recall. I find the Book of English Usage put out by the American Heritage Dictionary company to be the most useful for grammar, as it's in plain English with good examples. I have a couple of other workbook type books I use too--got them years ago to help with explaining to those who didn't have English as their first language the real basics.

 

[_Lynn_]

They did add a grammar chapter with the last edition. I'm sure that helps, but I haven't referred to it in an edit, as I can recall. I find the Book of English Usage put out by the American Heritage Dictionary company to be the most useful for grammar, as it's in plain English with good examples. I have a couple of other workbook type books I use too--got them years ago to help with explaining to those who didn't have English as their first language the real basics.

I don't think I've ever worked with anyone who didn't have English as their first language.

My daughter bought me the latest edition of the CMS. Before she did I used their 30-day online free trial offer and printed what I thought I would need, since that's allowed. But having the book is much nicer.

You have advantages I don't though. Industry knowledge and connections . . . With all the books available, choosing one on my own is a bit difficult.

 

[Guest]

They did add a grammar chapter with the last edition. I'm sure that helps, but I haven't referred to it in an edit, as I can recall. I find the Book of English Usage put out by the American Heritage Dictionary company to be the most useful for grammar, as it's in plain English with good examples. I have a couple of other workbook type books I use too--got them years ago to help with explaining to those who didn't have English as their first language the real basics.

***
You have advantages I don't though. Industry knowledge and connections . . . With all the books available, choosing one on my own is a bit difficult.

I agree. SR71, can you please send me a list of the books that you use (even the ones for non-native speakers)? There is a lot about our language that confuces me and I am a native speaker. I will look them up on amazon and buy them used if needs be.

 

[sr71plt]

For a style authority, I mostly use the CMS. (If you are writing something besides fiction--or commercial nonfiction, let me know, as there are different authorities for some writing--the APA, the MLA Handbook, the GPO, the AP Style Book, for instance. There's Strunk and White, which has good basic information, but it doesn't mesh completely with commerical publishing standards).

For Dictionaries, Webster's Collegiate (a descriptive dictionary) mostly for spelling and hyphenation (never rely on computer spell check for hyphenation). The American Heritage (a prescriptive dictionary) if you want to know why something is used rather than something else. The Oxford, if you are writing for the UK market.

Others for grammar and style:

The American Heritage Book of English Usage.

H. W. Fowler, Modern English Usage (nothing later than the 1996 edition, as Fowler died and they've now mucked that one up).

Theodore Bernstein, The Careful Writer: A Modern Guide to English Usage

William Zinsser, On Writing Well

Karen Elizabeth Gordon, The Transitive Vampire (for laugh and thrill while you learn)

Harry Shaw, Dictionary of Problem Words and Expressions (very hard to find)

And the two workbooks I sent out to foreign bureaus when I headed an international news agency:

David and Barbara Daniels, English Grammar (a HarperCollins College Outline series workbook)

Eugene Ehrlich, Punctuation, Capitalization, and Spelling (from the McGraw-Hill Schawm's Theorty and Problems series)


Mind you (again), these are for how to get it written in the best presentation style--these aren't on how to create a good story.

 

[_Lynn_]

Harry Shaw, Dictionary of Problem Words and Expressions (very hard to find)

Amazon has a few used 1975 and 1987 hardcover editions under $5.

 

[Guest]

...


Mind you (again), these are for how to get it written in the best presentation style--these aren't on how to create a good story.

Thank you very much. I just finished placing several of these on my Amazon wish list (where I hold things until I get around to buying them). As far as how to create a good story, I think I have the answer to that: practice, and learn your readers.

Now, I just have to do more of said practcing and learning my readers.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

This conversation has me thinking. I've been considering taking some writing courses. I feel as if I'm a decent writer but don't know if I lack the writing talant to get me to the next level, or just a good idea. Or perhaps the ability to write a long story.

But I also know that colleges don't always employ instructors who have the talent and mentoring skills that I seek. I may end up wasting my money.

I applaud you for your efforts to improve, I want to also, but don't know if this is the same direction I should take.

 

[_Lynn_]

This conversation has me thinking. I've been considering taking some writing courses. I feel as if I'm a decent writer but don't know if I lack the writing talant to get me to the next level, or just a good idea. Or perhaps the ability to write a long story.

But I also know that colleges don't always employ instructors who have the talent and mentoring skills that I seek. I may end up wasting my money.

I applaud you for your efforts to improve, I want to also, but don't know if this is the same direction I should take.

So taking a class that may or may not be the right direction is still better than not taking any classes at all, isn't it? There's still something to learn and it shows determination to complete the course.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Fiction writing is so easy a caveman like SR71PLT can do it.

Its easy but few people grasp how simple it is to apply the principles. You need a story! The Passion of Christ is one: Country bumpkin comes to town and is fucked by the city slickers and abandoned by his friends. He has conflicts and problems out the ass and they crucify him. He's a sweet guy and appealing, so he's sympathetic. The resolution is in the crisis; they crucified him but the crucifiction made him divine and immortal and a movie action-figure. And everyone who shit on him are villains forever! With no appeal!

This is all there is to it.

None of it is boring, and there are no limp digressions to stop and smell the roses along the road to Calvary.

So you need no books or perfumed perfessers pissant points,

 

[_Lynn_]

So all I need is an appealing country bumpkin fucking some guy's sweet ass after abandoning his friends who crucified him for shitting on a movie action-figure?

 

[sr71plt]

Fiction writing is so easy a caveman like SR71PLT can do it.

So this is the point where I should get up stomp out asking for my suede jacket--the one with the fringe on it(?)

 

[AsylumSeeker]

So taking a class that may or may not be the right direction is still better than not taking any classes at all, isn't it? There's still something to learn and it shows determination to complete the course.

Of course you're quite right. And with a junior college about two miles away I really have no excuses, now do I? I'll have to look into it. Thanks, ML.

 

[Handley_Page]

I heartily concur with "Fowler's English Usage".
There are few real differences in the two languages.

 

[Guest]

Thank you

So I am going to purchase the books on SR71's list. I feel that I can at least present my stories in a better light. As far as crafting them, I will continue to try and write better stories and learn my lessons as I go.

I am going to sell the textbooks to someone else signing up for the same class this semester and try to recoup some of my money (then I will put it towards more books for the next class). I appreciate the input from everyone.

Asylum Seeker, a college course may or may not help you. Mine was unsuccessful (so far), but you might get a different class and a different syllabus. you might have great success in finding a class that tells you everything about writing you have ever wondered. Give it a shot. All you can do is educate yourself further, and that is a good thing no matter how you look at it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

So this is the point where I should get up stomp out asking for my suede jacket--the one with the fringe on it(?)

Better yet, teach a few of these clowns how to write.

 

[PoppingTom]

Better yet, teach a few of these clowns how to write.

Said the clown about the clowns.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Said the clown about the clowns.

But I'm a professional clown and congenital sinner; I know how to do it.

 

[PoppingTom]

But I'm a professional clown and congenital sinner; I know how to do it.

Which have to be proven....

 

[sr71plt]

Of course you're quite right. And with a junior college about two miles away I really have no excuses, now do I? I'll have to look into it. Thanks, ML.

Coming into this a little late, but I'm not so sure that a creative writing class is what you would need. It depends on where (if anywhere) you want to go with your writing from where you are. Your stories have been very well received at Lit., so you must have a style and storytelling capability that goes over well in this venue. Having reached that, I don't see where a creative writing class would be more helpful than just doing more writing. If you want to try to write in other venues, maybe it would be useful--in at least exposing you to some basic tenets of writing and some theories (which you then could adopt or reject depending on how you thought they might be useful/useless to your style).

 

[driphoney]

This conversation has me thinking. I've been considering taking some writing courses. I feel as if I'm a decent writer but don't know if I lack the writing talant to get me to the next level, or just a good idea. Or perhaps the ability to write a long story.

But I also know that colleges don't always employ instructors who have the talent and mentoring skills that I seek. I may end up wasting my money.

I applaud you for your efforts to improve, I want to also, but don't know if this is the same direction I should take.

If SR hasn't talked you out of it, one thing you can do is go meet the creative writing professors/instructors that you're interested in. Ask them questions, ask for a syllabus and ask if they'd mind giving you a sample of their writing. Be all friendly and casual about it, and they'll probably go into what they have the students do and why. If they're worth having as a teacher, they won't mind your questions. Be honest, tell them that you've written quite a bit, and why you're interested in a creative writing course. You might find they don't go deep enough for you since you'll just be writing short stories, etc.

One of these days I get up my nerve to take one, too. I hate being graded on subjective matter.

 

[Guest]

One of these days I get up my nerve to take one, too. I hate being graded on subjective matter.

you know, none of my grades have anything to do with the subject matter. I get graded on formatting and research and citations and quoting, but never on opinion or subject. Kind of disappointing, really.