Coal is the perfect study in Trickle-Down Economics

[BoyNextDoor]

Policy Shift Helps Coal, but Other Forces May Limit Effect - NYT

In coal’s favor, there is the new promise that federal lands will be open for leasing, ending an Obama-era moratorium. Easing pollution restrictions could delay the closing of some old coal-fired power plants, slowing the switch by some utilities to other sources.

And with the government pendulum swinging from environmental concerns back to job creation and energy independence, share prices of many energy companies, particularly coal producers, soared Tuesday on the news.

So how much of this will trickle down to the coal miners? Seems like something easy to measure and track.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Apropos of nothing, from "Down the Mine," by George Orwell (1937):

It is impossible to watch the ‘fillers’ at work without feelling a pang of envy for their toughness. It is a dreadful job that they do, an almost superhuman job by the standard of an ordinary person. For they are not only shifting monstrous quantities of coal, they are also doing it in a position that doubles or trebles the work. They have got to remain kneeling all the while — they could hardly rise from their knees without hitting the ceiling — and you can easily see by trying it what a tremendous effort this means. Shovelling is comparatively easy when you are standing up, because you can use your knee and thigh to drive the shovel along; kneeling down, the whole of the strain is thrown upon your arm and belly muscles. And the other conditions do not exactly make things easier. There is the heat — it varies, but in some mines it is suffocating — and the coal dust that stuffs up your throat and nostrils and collects along your eyelids, and the unending rattle of the conveyor belt, which in that confined space is rather like the rattle of a machine gun. But the fillers look and work as though they were made of iron. They really do look like iron hammered iron statues — under the smooth coat of coal dust which clings to them from head to foot. It is only when you see miners down the mine and naked that you realize what splendid men they are. Most of them are small (big men are at a disadvantage in that job) but nearly all of them have the most noble bodies; wide shoulders tapering to slender supple waists, and small pronounced buttocks and sinewy thighs, with not an ounce of waste flesh anywhere. In the hotter mines they wear only a pair of thin drawers, clogs and knee-pads; in the hottest mines of all, only the clogs and knee-pads. You can hardly tell by the look of them whether they are young or old. They may be any age up to sixty or even sixty-five, but when they are black and naked they all look alike. No one could do their work who had not a young man's body, and a figure fit for a guardsman at that, just a few pounds of extra flesh on the waist-line, and the constant bending would be impossible. You can never forget that spectacle once you have seen it — the line of bowed, kneeling figures, sooty black all over, driving their huge shovels under the coal with stupendous force and speed. They are on the job for seven and a half hours, theoretically without a break, for there is no time ‘off’. Actually they, snatch a quarter of an hour or so at some time during the shift to eat the food they have brought with them, usually a hunk of bread and dripping and a bottle of cold tea. The first time I was watching the ‘fillers’ at work I put my hand upon some dreadful slimy thing among the coal dust. It was a chewed quid of tobacco. Nearly all the miners chew tobacco, which is said to be good against thirst.

<snip>

Even when you watch the process of coal-extraction you probably only watch it for a short time, and it is not until you begin making a few calculations that you realize what a stupendous task the ‘fillers’ are performing. Normally each o man has to clear a space four or five yards wide. The cutter has undermined the coal to the depth of five feet, so that if the seam of coal is three or four feet high, each man has to cut out, break up and load on to the belt something between seven and twelve cubic yards of coal. This is to say, taking a cubic yard as weighing twenty-seven hundred-weight, that each man is shifting coal at a speed approaching two tons an hour. I have just enough experience of pick and shovel work to be able to grasp what this means. When I am digging trenches in my garden, if I shift two tons of earth during the afternoon, I feel that I have earned my tea. But earth is tractable stuff compared with coal, and I don't have to work kneeling down, a thousand feet underground, in suffocating heat and swallowing coal dust with every breath I take; nor do I have to walk a mile bent double before I begin. The miner's job would be as much beyond my power as it would be to perform on a flying trapeze or to win the Grand National. I am not a manual labourer and please God I never shall be one, but there are some kinds of manual work that I could do if I had to. At a pitch I could be a tolerable road-sweeper or an inefficient gardener or even a tenth-rate farm hand. But by no conceivable amount of effort or training could I become a coal-miner, the work would kill me in a few weeks.

Is it still that hard, I wonder? Probably not, there's better machinery now.

 

[domroger]

Apropos of nothing, from "Down the Mine," by George Orwell (1937):



Is it still that hard, I wonder? Probably not, there's better machinery now.

Health risks are still high ,but fewer miners affected because increase use of machinery ,thus fewer miners. Not a job I would like to have .

 

[KingOrfeo]

Health risks are still high ,but fewer miners affected because increase use of machinery ,thus fewer miners. Not a job I would like to have .

Do they at least, nowadays, dig their tunnels and coal faces with high enough roofs/ceilings that a tall man can stand up?

I don't understand why the mines Orwell describes were not like that. To get to the coal face you had to walk through a mile of tunnel while bent double, and then work at the coal face while kneeling. But those tunnels only existed because the miners dug them -- why did they not dig them with higher roofs?

 

[KingOrfeo]

Oh, and there's this:

You do not notice the effect of this till you have gone a few hundred yards. You start off, stooping slightly, down the dim-lit gallery, eight or ten feet wide and about five high, with the walls built up with slabs of shale, like the stone walls in Derbyshire. Every yard or two there are wooden props holding up the beams and girders; some of the girders have buckled into fantastic curves under which you have to duck. Usually it is bad going underfoot — thick dust or jagged chunks of shale, and in some mines where there is water it is as mucky as a farm-yard. Also there is the track for the coal tubs, like a miniature railway track with sleepers a foot or two apart, which is tiresome to walk on. Everything is grey with shale dust; there is a dusty fiery smell which seems to be the same in all mines. You see mysterious machines of which you never learn the purpose, and bundles of tools slung together on wires, and sometimes mice darting away from the beam of the lamps. They are surprisingly common, especially in mines where there are or have been horses. It would be interesting to know how they got there in the first place; possibly by falling down the shaft — for they say a mouse can fall any distance uninjured, owing to its surface area being so large relative to its weight. You press yourself against the wall to make way for lines of tubs jolting slowly towards the shaft, drawn by an endless steel cable operated from the surface. You creep through sacking curtains and thick wooden doors which, when they are opened, let out fierce blasts of air. These doors are an important part of the ventilation system. The exhausted air is sucked out of one shaft by means of fans, and the fresh air enters the other of its own accord. But if left to itself the air will take the shortest way round, leaving the deeper workings unventilated; so all the short cuts have to be partitioned off.

Never mind how the mice got down there, what do they eat? In "mines where there are or have been horses" they can raid the horse fodder, but elsewhere, what? The miners obviously don't bring enough food down with them that they will leave any scraps for the mice.

 

[Maidboy]

So how much of this will trickle down to the coal miners? Seems like something easy to measure and track.

A few miners will see some temporary economic benefit, but the biggest trickle down effect will be the toxic sludge they'll be drinking long after the company has extracted as much coal that they can before getting the fuck out of Dodge.

 

[KingOrfeo]

A few miners will see some temporary economic benefit, but the biggest trickle down effect will be the toxic sludge they'll be drinking long after the company has extracted as much coal that they can before getting the fuck out of Dodge.

You load 16 tons
And whaddaya get
Coal in your water
Comin' out with your sweat . . .

 

[trysail]

Do they at least, nowadays, dig their tunnels and coal faces with high enough roofs/ceilings that a tall man can stand up?

I don't understand why the mines Orwell describes were not like that. To get to the coal face you had to walk through a mile of tunnel while bent double, and then work at the coal face while kneeling. But those tunnels only existed because the miners dug them -- why did they not dig them with higher roofs?

Jeebus. The ignorance is appalling.

​

 

[juttjaw]

Do they at least, nowadays, dig their tunnels and coal faces with high enough roofs/ceilings that a tall man can stand up?

I don't understand why the mines Orwell describes were not like that. To get to the coal face you had to walk through a mile of tunnel while bent double, and then work at the coal face while kneeling. But those tunnels only existed because the miners dug them -- why did they not dig them with higher roofs?

Most of the coal mining in the United States is done in the Powder River basin in Wyoming. Mostly done with giant machines and giant gashes scooped out of the earth. Powder River coal has less Sulphur content and has higher btu's than most other coal mining locations. The days of underground coal mining in the United States has been mostly shut down for the last 20 years. I'm sure there still are a few still in operation, maybe more than I think.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Trickle-Down is a political term and not an economic term.


And no, it is not easy to track for two reasons, one is the idiotic political focus on coal, and coal alone. The main one is that this is not a static system, but a dynamic system. Dynamic systems are chaotic (mathematically) systems and as such are impossible to fully model and reduce to a spreadsheet.

 

[domroger]

Do they at least, nowadays, dig their tunnels and coal faces with high enough roofs/ceilings that a tall man can stand up?

I don't understand why the mines Orwell describes were not like that. To get to the coal face you had to walk through a mile of tunnel while bent double, and then work at the coal face while kneeling. But those tunnels only existed because the miners dug them -- why did they not dig them with higher roofs?

Cost ,in some coalfields it would mean removing four feet of rock or more to get a six foot high tunnel .
It was cheaper to just follow the seam ,in some of the West of England you had to lie on your side to work .
As to what the mice lived on where ponies were used it was horse shit ,as no animal digests fully the grain it eats .

 

[trysail]

...Powder River coal... has higher btu's than most other coal mining locations...

FYI-
PRB coal is low BTU.

https://www.eia.gov/coal/markets/






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[Rightguide]

The state of today's coal is a study in trickle down government oppression.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Trickle-Down is a political term and not an economic term.


And no, it is not easy to track for two reasons, one is the idiotic political focus on coal, and coal alone. The main one is that this is not a static system, but a dynamic system. Dynamic systems are chaotic (mathematically) systems and as such are impossible to fully model and reduce to a spreadsheet.

^^^Commodity brokers read the above and laugh.

 

[oggbashan]

Do they at least, nowadays, dig their tunnels and coal faces with high enough roofs/ceilings that a tall man can stand up?

I don't understand why the mines Orwell describes were not like that. To get to the coal face you had to walk through a mile of tunnel while bent double, and then work at the coal face while kneeling. But those tunnels only existed because the miners dug them -- why did they not dig them with higher roofs?

The cost of removing that extra overburden would make the mine uneconomic and it would close. Deep mining for coal is expensive. Mining and removing material that is NOT coal makes the coal even more expensive.

Open cast coal mining is far cheaper than deep mining. Like many commodities, coal can be transported around the world cheaper than it can be deep mined.

The Executive Order ignores the economics of world-wide coal trading. When it is much cheaper to bring coal from Poland to the UK than to mine the coal IN the UK, UK coal mining cannot make a profit.

 

[KingOrfeo]

As to what the mice lived on where ponies were used it was horse shit ,as no animal digests fully the grain it eats .

But apparently they were to be found even in mines that had never used horses. What did the mice in those mines eat?

 

[doowdniw]

The Executive Order ignores the economics of world-wide coal trading. When it is much cheaper to bring coal from Poland to the UK than to mine the coal IN the UK, UK coal mining cannot make a profit.

The only thing trickling down will be mine pollution into our surface water streams and rivers.

 

[oggbashan]

But apparently they were to be found even in mines that had never used horses. What did the mice in those mines eat?

The crumbs from the miners' lunch boxes (or Cornish Pasties).

And insects...

 

[trysail]

...mine pollution...

Define that term.

​

 

[trysail]

$/MMBTU

Natural gas...... $2.94

Coal
-Appalachian... $2.06
-PRB................ $0.65




Where did your electron come from ?




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[doowdniw]

Define that term.

​

Here's a start: When coal surfaces are exposed, pyrite comes in contact with water and air and forms sulfuric acid. As water drains from the mine, the acid moves into the waterways; as long as rain falls on the mine tailings the sulfuric-acid production continues, whether the mine is still operating or not. Also waste piles and coal storage piles can yield sediment to streams. Surface waters may be rendered unfit for agriculture, human consumption, bathing, or other household uses.

 

[trysail]

https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/mtoeperemployee.png?w=720


https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/mtoe.png?w=720


​

 

[trysail]

Here's a start: When coal surfaces are exposed, pyrite comes in contact with water and air and forms sulfuric acid. As water drains from the mine, the acid moves into the waterways; as long as rain falls on the mine tailings the sulfuric-acid production continues, whether the mine is still operating or not. Also waste piles and coal storage piles can yield sediment to streams. Surface waters may be rendered unfit for agriculture, human consumption, bathing, or other household uses.

More scary campfire stories intentionally designed to frighten the anxiety-disordered, the innumerate and the scientifically-impaired— full of the weasel words "may" and "can."

All quite controllable. All already regulated.






P.S., Are you aware that dihydrogen monoxide can be deadly to humans ? Don't you think it ought to be banned ?


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[BoyNextDoor]

Trickle-Down is a political term and not an economic term.


And no, it is not easy to track for two reasons, one is the idiotic political focus on coal, and coal alone. The main one is that this is not a static system, but a dynamic system. Dynamic systems are chaotic (mathematically) systems and as such are impossible to fully model and reduce to a spreadsheet.

So you are saying it is not possible to model the economic impact of policy changes on a sector and a market? I think you will find that a lot of people do this for a living and make their findings readily known. It is not even that difficult to to with a little reading.

Here are four publicly traded coal companies:
ADD TO WATCHLIST
CLD 4.70 +1.73%
BHP 36.95 +0.16%
RIO 41.17 +0.71%
SOUHY 10.71 +2.69%

Getting their 10K and 10Q off the EDGAR and looking at simple things like total revenues, COGS, EBITDA and what dividends they are paying (if any) will paint a pretty clear picture if the regulatory changes (new lands for leasing, removing clean energy restriction, letting them dump sludge in rivers, etc). That will tell you how the company is doing. Compare that to the employment numbers and we will see if profit goes up, does it turn into wealth and dividends? or will it really mean jobs. My guess it there will be savings and it will all go to Execs and investors. But, let's see.

As to your comments on "trickle-down" and "idiotic political focus" - seriously?

 

[BoyNextDoor]

All already regulated.



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Until it is not.