closed Thread

[Rotadom]

"Making excuses for genocide" is one of the primary reasons this thread this thread.

Over half the replies here are variations on the "Israel is not to blame because...." and/or "You can't call this 'genocide' because...." talking points.

Justifying 6 months of attacks on civilians cannot be justified nor can the onslaught of war crimes. Full stop.

 

[Rotadom]

"fact"

At least you put "fact" in quotes since you presented no facts.

for your heroes

Where do your elk get off with this shit? I haven't seen a single person defend HAMAS in person or here yet you s insist on this inane rhetoric.

 

[KeithD]

Nice dodge.

That wasn't a dodge. You misrepresent the general pro-Palestinian people responses from posters here to include pro-Hamas (even those not including mentioning the bad Hamas at all) when most of them did start with "bad Hamas" and moved on from there--or at least didn't give Hamas any support. And Rotodam's "not carpet bombed" response is not a dodge, it is directly on point. Israel has abused and caged the Palestinian people for eighty years. It has driven the Palestinians into Hamas hands--Netanyahu extraordinarily so in recent years--and given them little choice on who they knuckle under in order to survive--not just Hamas but a mistreating Israel as well. To say that Palestinians and whole hell of a lot of the rest of us don't see carpet bombing of civilians in Gaza and pushing Palestinians to go back and forth between areas being carpet bombed is unacceptable regardles of our views of Hamas is not a dodge of any sort.

Israel shows it simply doesn't value the lives of Palestinians (and actually, foreign aid workers) at all. Why don't you admit that? A poster here isn't giving Hamas any slack at all in recognizing that this has been true for 80 years and is being put into play now.

 

[Lazaran]

That wasn't a dodge. You misrepresent the general pro-Palestinian people responses from posters here to include pro-Hamas (even those not including mentioning the bad Hamas at all) when most of them did start with "bad Hamas" and moved on from there--or at least didn't give Hamas any support. And Rotodam's "not carpet bombed" response is not a dodge, it is directly on point. Israel has abused and caged the Palestinian people for eighty years. It has driven the Palestinians into Hamas hands--Netanyahu extraordinarily so in recent years--and given them little choice on who they knuckle under in order to survive--not just Hamas but a mistreating Israel as well. To say that Palestinians and whole hell of a lot of the rest of us don't see carpet bombing of civilians in Gaza and pushing Palestinians to go back and forth between areas being carpet bombed is unacceptable regardles of our views of Hamas is not a dodge of any sort.

Israel shows it simply doesn't value the lives of Palestinians (and actually, foreign aid workers) at all. Why don't you admit that? A poster here isn't giving Hamas any slack at all in recognizing that this has been true for 80 years and is being put into play now.

All that ^ from the comment “Nice dodge” in response to another poster refusing to give a straight answer on the future of Israel in "Palestine".

 

[KeithD]

All that ^ from the comment “Nice dodge” in response to another poster refusing to give a straight answer on the future of Israel in "Palestine".

"All that" was telling you he gave a straight, accurate, succinct answer that you now are dodging.

Show me how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians as human beings over the last eighty years. Show me how they are having any compassion for Palestinian civilians in Gaza now. Show me how that has to include Hamas as well. Don't dodge these questions.

 

[butters]

i fully and vocally condemn the horrendous violence towards civilians in Israel on Oct. 7th. I have not one iota of support for hamas. I also understand that Palestinians continually fight skirmishes that hurt Israeli civilians.

The shock and disgust engendered by Oct.7th's savagery (and, no, i won't call them animals because the perpetrators acted in the worst HUMAN manner that animals do not deserve having lumped on their doorstep) brought worldwide condemnation; it didn't happen in a vacuum and to point that out isn't 'supporting hamas animals' but accepting that, historically, attacks of such magnitude simply do not.

Israel's response didn't bring immediate ire from those who feel hamas should be destroyed, as I do; it's the continued violence, the mass killings of exhausted, bombed out civilians, the breaking of the hospital/water/food/shelter/transport infrastructures, the funneling of refugees who have already lost everything into 'safe' areas that are then bombed, till the numbers of civilian deaths (as reported by the UN) are massively disproportionate to the lives lost on Oct.7th? THAT's the reason so many protest Israel's actions. Caring what happens to civilians in war doesn't make me a hamas supporter, or an antisemite, since i care for the loss of innocents EQUALLY. The numbers, however, show the inequality and this is why Israel (not Israeli's) has lost any high ground it had to claim.

There's a lot of talk about Israel fearing Palestine, stating its desire to wipe Israel out, make it cease to exist. hamas, i do believe, escalated events for its own purposes to introduce instability in the area and force Israel to have to fight on more fronts than it was when facing threats from other players in the area. I also looked at the maps: how can Israel fear being 'wiped from the face of existence' when the maps show this:

(map from an article in 2016)
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.8PcKZ-Y9W_EVCZMRVzkfOwAAAA?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain
https://me-confidential.com/11683-israel-annexes-largest-palestinian-land-since-2014.html


this, dating to 2023, showing the loss of Palestinian land to Israel:
https://me-confidential.com/11683-israel-annexes-largest-palestinian-land-since-2014.html

i'm no genius, but i can see the massive change in the sizes, how Israel has grown and Palestine has been shrunk to broken and disparate areas.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

"All that" was telling you he gave a straight, accurate, succinct answer that you now are dodging.

Show me how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians as human beings over the last eighty years. Show me how they are having any compassion for Palestinian civilians in Gaza now. Show me how that has to include Hamas as well. Don't dodge these questions.

There are Palestinians who live normal lives as citizens in Israel right now. The only Jewish civilians in Gaza are hostages.

 

[RobDownSouth]

There are Palestinians who live normal lives as citizens in Israel right now. The only Jewish civilians in Gaza are hostages.

"Normal" is subjective. I think "Second Class Citizens" might be more accurate.

92 percent of Palestinian "citizens" in Israel live in ghetto enclaves (Think "Warsaw ghetto" not "Harlem ghetto"). There's also a whole bunch of "Ron DeSantis laws" in Israel, dictating what can and cannot be taught in schools.

 

[icanhelp1]

Justifying 6 months of attacks on civilians cannot be justified nor can the onslaught of war crimes. Full stop.

What Hamas did was and is synonymous to a Pearl Harbor style attack on innocence , we declared war over that attack. War is hell. It led to an unconditional surrender by the Japanese, the ball is in Hamas’s court.

 

[snailspace]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1790784045544063120

 

[JoePepsiCo]

Such brave warriors! Hamas rules!

Hide behind the women and children.

They just don't matter as much as men.

Allah wills it! Allahuakbar!!! **AK47-fire**

 

[icanhelp1]

You celebratin' Nakba Day today?

You bring up Nakba but what you fail do is put context to that horrific event. In 1948 most of the Mid-east was a conglomerate of clans, tribes and wannabe states where borders were still not drawn and countries were being born. The whole planet was recovering from the atrocities of WWII. The formation of the Arab defense league and Israel declaring it's independence also recovering from its own atrocities, a true attempt at genocide.

 

[Rotadom]

Such brave warriors! Hamas rules!

Hide behind the women and children.

They just don't matter as much as men.

Allah wills it! Allahuakbar!!! **AK47-fire**

You're the only one proclaiming this. Oh, and congrats! This is the longest you've gone without being banned!

 

[KeithD]

There are Palestinians who live normal lives as citizens in Israel right now. The only Jewish civilians in Gaza are hostages.

Have you followed the numbers in the accomplished and proposed prisoner exchanges in this Gaza issue? The ratio is about 100 Palestinians to be released by Israel for 1 hostage (or hostage body) held in Gaza. Given any thought to why there are those many Palestinians in detention in Israel to make up that ratio?

Have you spent any time in Israel to see how Palestinians living and/or working in Israel are treated? I have.

What does your post have to do about Palestinian civilians being force-moved around from one dangerous place to another dangerous place, starved, having their homes and livelihood destroyed, bombed, having no hospital to go to, and not even having any place to be buried?

 

[Lazaran]

i fully and vocally condemn the horrendous violence towards civilians in Israel on Oct. 7th. I have not one iota of support for hamas. I also understand that Palestinians continually fight skirmishes that hurt Israeli civilians.

The shock and disgust engendered by Oct.7th's savagery (and, no, i won't call them animals because the perpetrators acted in the worst HUMAN manner that animals do not deserve having lumped on their doorstep) brought worldwide condemnation; it didn't happen in a vacuum and to point that out isn't 'supporting hamas animals' but accepting that, historically, attacks of such magnitude simply do not.

Israel's response didn't bring immediate ire from those who feel hamas should be destroyed, as I do; it's the continued violence, the mass killings of exhausted, bombed out civilians, the breaking of the hospital/water/food/shelter/transport infrastructures, the funneling of refugees who have already lost everything into 'safe' areas that are then bombed, till the numbers of civilian deaths (as reported by the UN) are massively disproportionate to the lives lost on Oct.7th? THAT's the reason so many protest Israel's actions. Caring what happens to civilians in war doesn't make me a hamas supporter, or an antisemite, since i care for the loss of innocents EQUALLY. The numbers, however, show the inequality and this is why Israel (not Israeli's) has lost any high ground it had to claim.

There's a lot of talk about Israel fearing Palestine, stating its desire to wipe Israel out, make it cease to exist. hamas, i do believe, escalated events for its own purposes to introduce instability in the area and force Israel to have to fight on more fronts than it was when facing threats from other players in the area. I also looked at the maps: how can Israel fear being 'wiped from the face of existence' when the maps show this:

(map from an article in 2016)
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.8PcKZ-Y9W_EVCZMRVzkfOwAAAA?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain
https://me-confidential.com/11683-israel-annexes-largest-palestinian-land-since-2014.html


this, dating to 2023, showing the loss of Palestinian land to Israel:
https://me-confidential.com/11683-israel-annexes-largest-palestinian-land-since-2014.html

i'm no genius, but i can see the massive change in the sizes, how Israel has grown and Palestine has been shrunk to broken and disparate areas.

^
A thoughtful and comprehensive take on the situation.



I hope I can offer a worthy response:

I would disagree that there was “worldwide” condemnation for the Hamas terrorists’ horrific 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation:

There were literal celebrations and Pro-"Palestine" rallies in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of 10/7: NO pause AT ALL. (What kind of human does that???)



As far as the Israeli land grab (settlements) goes: I can only point to The Six Day War and the post war security needs.



As for the Israeli’s fear of being wiped out of existence: I can only suggest you pan out a bit and look at the countries surrounding Israel that have regularly participated in trying to wipe Israel off the map. (And that isn’t even including Iran, Yemen, etc.)



Also:

I believe the Israelis have learned from their mistake of leaving their settlements and ending their security presence in Gaza. (Gaza was immediately converted into a terror base upon Israel’s departure.)



Related :

Those Israeli settlements in the West Bank have been effective in maintaining / contributing to Israel’s overall national / territorial security / integrity for many decades now. Who’s to say that what happened when the Israelis abandoned their settlements in Gaza wouldn’t happen in the West Bank if the Israelis abandoned their settlements there???



Currently:

The situation in Gaza has become unacceptable; but remember, that is EXACTLY what Hamas wants. (It’s what Hanas wanted, when it chose to commit the 10/7 atrocities.):

Hamas wanted to trigger a global Jihad, but, falling short of that, they are currently maximizing the propaganda value of Israel’s predictably and necessarily heavy handed response. (There’s a reason Hamas is dragging out the hostage negotiations.)



Ultimately:

My major disagreement with the Pro-"Palestine" crowd, is over who is truly responsible for the suffering in Gaza. (I assign most of the responsibility to Hamas.)

See also: Rashida Tlaib’s take on who is to blame for EVERYTHING -(Israel).



I also have a problem with the Pro-"Palestine" crowd’s lack of honesty about their true vision of a future "Palestine".(I don’t believe their true vision includes the continued existence of a Jewish majority / controlled sovereign sanctuary state of Israel - and SOME make that quite clear.)



Finally;

Peace and an end to suffering should always be THE goal.

10/7 did NOT advance that ^ goal.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Have you followed the numbers in the accomplished and proposed prisoner exchanges in this Gaza issue? The ratio is about 100 Palestinians to be released by Israel for 1 hostage (or hostage body) held in Gaza. Given any thought to why there are those many Palestinians in detention in Israel to make up that ratio?

Have you spent any time in Israel to see how Palestinians living and/or working in Israel are treated? I have.

What does your post have to do about Palestinian civilians being force-moved around from one dangerous place to another dangerous place, starved, having their homes and livelihood destroyed, bombed, having no hospital to go to, and not even having any place to be buried?

Many Palestinians who are in prison in Israel are there because they were convicted of committing terrorist attacks against Israelis. Hamas took innocent people hostage to force Israel to release the guilty.

It’s been over six months since October 7th. It’s becoming clear that most of the hostages taken that day were murdered in captivity.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...cide+in+Gaza+-+Final+version+051524+Clean.pdf

Four major universities in the United States including Yale have done a study and a report on Israel in Palestine.

Its genocide.

Those saying it’s not, please shut the fuck up and find your humanity.

Read this document, get on the right side of history, and give the opportunity for a two state solution and peace a chance.

Stop the genocide. Free the hostages. Free Palestine.

 

[ll74]

Many Palestinians who are in prison in Israel are there because they were convicted of committing terrorist attacks against Israelis. Hamas took innocent people hostage to force Israel to release the guilty.

It’s been over six months since October 7th. It’s becoming clear that most of the hostages taken that day were murdered in captivity.

I was trying to write something up on this, but you nailed it. The hostages that Hamas has were from the attack. The prisoners that Israel has are from the war that resulted from the attack...most taken from the battlefield.

It's worth noting that Israel will release Palestinians who may have been picked up for minor offenses in the combat zone or may have been misidentified and rounded up with Hamas fighters. Hamas literally grabbed citizens attending a rock concert specifically to use later for these ceasefire negotiations.

 

[Noor]

Have you followed the numbers in the accomplished and proposed prisoner exchanges in this Gaza issue? The ratio is about 100 Palestinians to be released by Israel for 1 hostage (or hostage body) held in Gaza. Given any thought to why there are those many Palestinians in detention in Israel to make up that ratio?

Have you spent any time in Israel to see how Palestinians living and/or working in Israel are treated? I have.

What does your post have to do about Palestinian civilians being force-moved around from one dangerous place to another dangerous place, starved, having their homes and livelihood destroyed, bombed, having no hospital to go to, and not even having any place to be buried?

The hostage/prisoner exchanges are historically always high Palestinian to Israeli. This is because they know Israel will do it, it has to do with the religious redemption of hostages.
There are open working hospitals in Gaza as well as multiple field hospitals.
Gazans can no longer get specialize treatment in Israel as they could before 10-7, but UAE which has good specialist care has been picking up the slack. Not sure how Egyptians closing of their gate for the past week is affecting that, but hopefully they are still about to get UAE care.

 

[butters]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/28/world/middleeast/palestinians-detained-in-israel.html

the entire article is worth reading, and approaches the topic in a non-religious, factual manner that doesn't apportion blame or hyperbole.

According to HaMoked, an Israeli human rights group, more than 9,000 Palestinians are currently in Israeli prisons. Many were detained in the occupied West Bank, the Israeli military says, where Israeli forces have conducted large raids since Oct. 7. An unknown number of Gazans are being held in military facilities.

More than 3,500 Palestinian detainees are being held without formal charges, according to HaMoked. That practice, known as administrative detention, was in place before the war, but Israel has increased its use. Before Oct. 7, about 1,300 Palestinian administrative detainees were held in Israel, according to data provided by Israel’s prison service to HaMoked.

Activists say the practice effectively annuls due process, while Israel calls it a necessary tool to detain those it says pose an imminent threat to national security. The Israeli military said it had been operating “several detention facilities” for people apprehended during the Oct. 7 attacks and the ground invasion. It said that after questioning, detainees “found to be unrelated to terrorist activity” would be returned to Gaza.

 

[Noor]

I was trying to write something up on this, but you nailed it. The hostages that Hamas has were from the attack. The prisoners that Israel has are from the war that resulted from the attack...most taken from the battlefield.

It's worth noting that Israel will release Palestinians who may have been picked up for minor offenses in the combat zone or may have been misidentified and rounded up with Hamas fighters. Hamas literally grabbed citizens attending a rock concert specifically to use later for these ceasefire negotiations.

Umm no, the prisoners Israel has that that Hamas wants are mainly from individuals terrorist attacks during cease fires like they were under on Oct 7, not from any of the wars.

 

[RobDownSouth]

There are open working hospitals in Gaza as well as multiple field hospitals.

Categorically untrue. There is ONE hospital intermittently open, which has no oxygen or anesthesia supplies, due to Israelis targeting medical relief.

Gazan children are being forced to undergo surgery without anesthesia, which makes most Israelis smile from ear to ear, as they wholeheartedly approve of violence directed at children (which is obviously not expressly prohibited in their religious texts). G-d's "chosen people"? Chosen for what? Their propensity for violence? Cruelty? Inhumanity to their fellow man?

The count of doctors and medical professionals killed in Gaza is indicative of Israeli targeting of "weak points" in infrastructure.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...cide+in+Gaza+-+Final+version+051524+Clean.pdf

Four major universities in the United States including Yale have done a study and a report on Israel in Palestine.

Its genocide.

Those saying it’s not, please shut the fuck up and find your humanity.

Read this document, get on the right side of history, and give the opportunity for a two state solution and peace a chance.

Stop the genocide. Free the hostages. Free Palestine.

I didn’t have to read the whole thing. It uses inflated casualty numbers that have already been debunked. It’s not a genocide.

 

[ll74]

Umm no, the prisoners Israel has that that Hamas wants are mainly from individuals terrorist attacks during cease fires like they were under on Oct 7, not from any of the wars.

Israel has captured a huge amount of people during their incursion into Gaza. Of course more were captured during other attacks on Israel and/or settlements.

My point is that Hamas has concert attendees and Israel has people associated with violence.

 

[KeithD]

The hostage/prisoner exchanges are historically always high Palestinian to Israeli. This is because they know Israel will do it, it has to do with the religious redemption of hostages.

I don't understand. What does this have to do with the number of Palestinians held in detention by Israel?