closed Thread

[RobDownSouth]

No, you’re engaging in appeals to emotion, and refusing to recognize that large numbers of "MINORS" are fully capable of fighting for the Hamas animals, and ARE participating / collaborating (along with other Palestinian "civilians") in the Hamas animal’s GENOCIDAL and SUICIDAL Jihad.

Those ^ large numbers of - fully capable of fighting, and actively participating "MINORS" - in the ranks of the Hamas animals, goes a looooooong way in explaining the high number of casualties among "MINORS" in Gaza.

No, not accepting your rationalizations at all. You don't get to call Hamas "animals" and accuse me of "appeal to emotion". We both know what you're doing here, attempting to dehumanized the opposition. AJ did this with Haitians, Hitler did this with Jews, and now you're attempting to do this with Hamas.

I saw videos on Twitter yesterday of arms and legs of children being pulled out of rubble. They couldn't have been older than 3 or 4 year old bodies. They're not capable of CARRYING arms, let alone USING them. I'm not talking "minors' here, I'm talking about children...children indiscriminately killed by Israeli war criminals.

Israel's unabated, opportunistic bloodlust has caused them to lose their moral compass as a nation. They...and you.... consider Gazans to be....what was the word? Untermenschen.

 

[Lazaran]

No, not accepting your rationalizations at all. You don't get to call Hamas "animals" and accuse me of "appeal to emotion". We both know what you're doing here, attempting to dehumanized the opposition. AJ did this with Haitians, Hitler did this with Jews, and now you're attempting to do this with Hamas.

I saw videos on Twitter yesterday of arms and legs of children being pulled out of rubble. They couldn't have been older than 3 or 4 year old bodies. They're not capable of CARRYING arms, let alone USING them. I'm not talking "minors' here, I'm talking about children...children indiscriminately killed by Israeli war criminals.

Israel's unabated, opportunistic bloodlust has caused them to lose their moral compass as a nation. They...and you.... consider Gazans to be....what was the word? Untermenschen.

•
Um, I purposely refer to Hamas as “animals” for reason I have already explained.

If Palestinians and their supporters had IMMEDIATELY ( and continuously) condemned the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, and mourned the loss of innocent Israeli life and the barbaric acts inflicted upon them instead of IMMEDIATELY organizing rallies and celebrations lionizing the Hamas animals and condoning / glorifying their barbaric acts. I wouldn’t be posting for effect. (No appeal to emotion, but rather, an appeal to introspection).

Also:

I never suggested that ALL the dead minors in Gaza are of “fighting age”, but rather, that there is a “significant number” of "MINORS" of “fighting age” in the ranks of the Hamas animals, and that the “significant number” of casualties among "MINORS" in Gaza is easily explained by the “significant number” of "MINORS" of “fighting age” in the ranks of the Hamas animals that were killed in IDF strikes against the terror organization.

Again:

ALL the deaths and destruction in Gaza are on the heads of the Hamas animals and their Palestinian "civilian" enablers / cohorts - including and especially the heads of the parents of the "MINORS" of “fighting age” who give their encouragement and blessing to their "MINOR" children to participate in a barbaric Jihad.



JFC

SAD!!!

 

[Sean Renaud]

•
Um, I purposely refer to Hamas as “animals” for reason I have already explained.

If Palestinians and their supporters had IMMEDIATELY ( and continuously) condemned the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, and mourned the loss of innocent Israeli life and the barbaric acts inflicted upon them instead of IMMEDIATELY organizing rallies and celebrations lionizing the Hamas animals and condoning / glorifying their barbaric acts. I wouldn’t be posting for effect. (No appeal to emotion, but rather, an appeal to introspection).

~snip~​

Again:

ALL the deaths and destruction in Gaza are on the heads of the Hamas animals and their Palestinian "civilian" enablers / cohorts - including and especially the heads of the parents of the "MINORS" of “fighting age” who give their encouragement and blessing to their "MINOR" children to participate in a barbaric Jihad.



JFC

SAD!!!

If your entire life was getting bombed by people who keep settling on your land. Who make it impossible to be economically viable how quickly would you be condemning attrocities? We know the shit soldiers of every nation do and they still usually come back to applause of their own country so you can just take bullshit and shove it up your ass. If Russia crammed all of America into California I wouldn't complain at all about people going full Vlad the Impaler and driving around cities with the still living people on trucks. You guys are pro gun on paper but in reality you don't really believe that shit.

No both sides are bad but this is so asymetrical that claiming HAMAS is more responsible than Israel is like this.

 

[Lazaran]

If your entire life was getting bombed by people who keep settling on your land. Who make it impossible to be economically viable how quickly would you be condemning attrocities? We know the shit soldiers of every nation go and they still usually come back to applause of their own country so you can just take bullshit and shove it up your ass. If Russia crammed all of America into California I wouldn't complain at all about people going full Vlad the Impaler and driving around cities with the still living people on trucks. You guys are pro gun on paper but in reality you don't really believe that shit.

No both sides are bad but this is so asymetrical that claiming HAMAS is more responsible than Israel is like this.

Nearly everything you said is wrong or backwards.

And you are definitely getting emotional about the situation.

The Jewish state of Israel was targeted for destruction by Arabs / Muslims from the moment of its inception, and has been subjected to incessant wars of aggression, terror attacks, and gray zone warfare tactics.



Things COULD have been different, but Palestinian Arabs / Muslims chose a path of violence when they should have been peacefully consolidating their position in the areas they had received in the partition.



I often wonder what the world would be like today if the Palestinian Arabs / Muslims had declared their independence and established a Palestinian state in parallel to Israel’s declaration instead of mounting a war of aggression to purge the Jews from the newly formed Jewish state of Israel.



I doubt things could have turned out much worse for them…or Israel…

 

[Sean Renaud]

Nearly everything you said is wrong or backwards.

And you are definitely getting emotional about the situation.

The Jewish state of Israel was targeted for destruction by Arabs / Muslims from the moment of its inception, and has been subjected to incessant wars of aggression, terror attacks, and gray zone warfare tactics.



Things COULD have been different, but Palestinian Arabs / Muslims chose a path of violence when they should have been peacefully consolidating their position in the areas they had received in the partition.



I often wonder what the world would be like today if the Palestinian Arabs / Muslims had declared their independence and established a Palestinian state in parallel to Israel’s declaration instead of mounting a war of aggression to purge the Jews from the newly formed Jewish state of Israel.



I doubt things could have turned out much worse for them…or Israel…

The Jewish State of Israel was literally dropped in on people who already lived there. What makes it worse is the reason there were so many Jews alrady in the area was because antisemitism there was no where near as bad as much of Europe and America. Its serious case of no good deed going unpunished.

You would choose violence too and if you wouldn't never speak again about things like gun right and watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants.

You mean if they had been pacifists despite just a few short years before the entire world had seen how pacificm and appeasment do not fucking work in the real world.-

Maybe it would turn out worse maybe better. The reality is you fight or you die on that level and what Israel is doing at this point is fucking wrong.

Maybe I am a little emotional that doesn't make my logic wrong. There is a reason why the history books record MLK jr as a hero and pretend he and Rosa Parks were the only black people in the country at that time. Why they champion Ghandi.

In the same breath they can praise men who were flat out undeniable terrorists over a minor tax increase. After the French and Indian War the Brits were broke. This is the literal equivalent of your father buying you a car and when he asks you to make modest payments to work it off you tell to come and make you.

 

[KeithD]

If Palestinians and their supporters had IMMEDIATELY ( and continuously) condemned the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, and mourned the loss of innocent Israeli life and the barbaric acts inflicted upon them instead of IMMEDIATELY organizing rallies and celebrations lionizing the Hamas animals and condoning / glorifying their barbaric acts. I wouldn’t be posting for effect. (No appeal to emotion, but rather, an appeal to introspection).

That must be some awfully good dream-making stuff you're highlining. That's how you think the world works? Really?

 

[Lazaran]

That must be some awfully good dream-making stuff you're highlining. That's how you think the world works? Really?

It’s how my morality (and how I would hope and expect any decent, intelligent, and civilized person’s morality) “works”.

When a heinous act is committed, I find it exceedingly easy to call out the perpetrator(s), and I don’t play favorites.

October 7th was a heinous act.

The Palestians and their supporters didn’t (still don’t) call it out for what it was.

Do the math…

Ironically, I wasn’t at all surprised by the response to October 7th from Palestinians and their supporters…



Is it any wonder Israel’s response is what it is???

 

[KeithD]

It’s how my morality (and how I would hope and expect any decent, intelligent, and civilized person’s morality) “works”.

Sorry, but that's absolutely crazy and naive to expect the Palestinian people to have done with the hand they were dealt--much of the limiting of options being dealt them by the Israeli government, and especially by Israel's current PM, Netanyahu.

Absolutely crazy and naive.

 

[ll74]

I applaud Egypt and Qatar and the US for seeking peace. I wish that China and India and North Korea would apply similar pressure on Russia to do the same

 

[Lazaran]

You would choose violence too and if you wouldn't never speak again about things like gun right and watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants.

In the same breath they can praise men who were flat out undeniable terrorists over a minor tax increase. After the French and Indian War the Brits were broke. This is the literal equivalent of your father buying you a car and when he asks you to make modest payments to work it off you tell to come and make you.

•
You obviously have me confused with someone else.

I’m a gun control advocate, and I have no great love for "the founding fathers"

I do oppose tyrants, which is why I still support Israeli’s putting Netanyahu out of office and into prison.

I also support keeping the corrupt orange traitor out of office and putting that orange POS into prison.

Hope ^ that helps.





Side note:

Yes, Israel practically appeared out of whole cloth in 1947-48, but there was SIGNIFICANT history, both old and recent, that made Israel’s existence (within the borders of the partition) as THE Jewish homeland a justified / justifiable proposition IMHO.

That ^was NEVER going to sit well with the radical, militant Arab Muslims, (being the intolerant lot they are), and they acted as expected, waging several wars of aggression, and LOSING, and then launching incessant terror attacks and employing gray zone warfare tactics (with predictable responses from the Israelis): Hence the current borders and Israeli’s perceived need for buffer zones or increased Jewish hegemony within the West Bank, and now, Gaza.

It is what it is.

Maybe this latest Nakba will change the Palestinian’s and their supporter’s mindsets

 

[Lazaran]

Sorry, but that's absolutely crazy and naive to expect the Palestinian people to have done with the hand they were dealt--much of the limiting of options being dealt them by the Israeli government, and especially by Israel's current PM, Netanyahu.

Absolutely crazy and naive.

•
Fair enough:

Then do the math for yourself… literally.

 

[KeithD]

•
Fair enough:

Then do the math for yourself… literally.

If you're so morally laced up, how do you feel about invaders just showing up on the shores of a continent on top of an indigenous population and creating their own country by military force and pushing the indigenous population into enclaves in the most unproductive sectors of the region? And if you are so morally laced up, why wouldn't you justify the indigenous population trying to defend where they lived?

You really have no idea what happened in that region after WWII, do you?

 

[Noor]

If you're so morally laced up, how do you feel about invaders just showing up on the shores of a continent on top of an indigenous population and creating their own country by military force and pushing the indigenous population into enclaves in the most unproductive sectors of the region? And if you are so morally laced up, why wouldn't you justify the indigenous population trying to defend where they lived?

You really have no idea what happened in that region after WWII, do you?

Like in America?

 

[Noor]

Like in America?

Religiously according to the Torah, New Testament and the Quran the Jews are the indigenous people of Israel.

 

[KeithD]

Like in America?

Pretty much, yes, except that in the case of America, the European invaders didn't have a prior history of Europeans living in the region and the Zionists did have a history of prior settlement in the Holy Land. (The people they're displacing/trying to exterminate, though, have a history of continuous living in the region.) Another difference is that, although the Europeans did have a sense of a high worth of the land they were invading, it's nothing like the worth the Holyland is held it--but not just by Jews. By Muslims and Christians as well.

I do think there are moral equivalence connections, but I'm not sure if you thought there was more of a point in raising the America issue.

 

[Sean Renaud]

•
You obviously have me confused with someone else.

I’m a gun control advocate, and I have no great love for "the founding fathers"

I do oppose tyrants, which is why I still support Israeli’s putting Netanyahu out of office and into prison.

I also support keeping the corrupt orange traitor out of office and putting that orange POS into prison.

Hope ^ that helps.





Side note:

Yes, Israel practically appeared out of whole cloth in 1947-48, but there was SIGNIFICANT history, both old and recent, that made Israel’s existence (within the borders of the partition) as THE Jewish homeland a justified / justifiable proposition IMHO.

That ^was NEVER going to sit well with the radical, militant Arab Muslims, (being the intolerant lot they are), and they acted as expected, waging several wars of aggression, and LOSING, and then launching incessant terror attacks and employing gray zone warfare tactics (with predictable responses from the Israelis): Hence the current borders and Israeli’s perceived need for buffer zones or increased Jewish hegemony within the West Bank, and now, Gaza.

It is what it is.

Maybe this latest Nakba will change the Palestinian’s and their supporter’s mindsets

Honestly between Netanyahu and Hamas you really do ultimately have to pick a side even if you don't 100% agree with them.

 

[KeithD]

Religiously according to the Torah, New Testament and the Quran the Jews are the indigenous people of Israel.

I think you need to recheck the Quran on that. Who, by the way, did you think lived in Jerricho when Moses's band (sans Moses) entered the region and knocked 'dem walls down?

 

[KeithD]

Honestly between Netanyahu and Hamas you really do ultimately have to pick a side even if you don't 100% agree with them.

But you don't have to irrevocably link all Palestinians with Hamas. I worked with Palestinians. They were all Baptists.

 

[Noor]

Based on rumors which in the past has been on point, IDF is going to announced something soonish. Also there was ceasefire talks earlier, no comment on that yet.
I’m hoping there for a hostage/ceasefire deal.

 

[Noor]

But you don't have to irrevocably link all Palestinians with Hamas. I worked with Palestinians. They were all Baptists.

Totally, the ones I know are Catholic, Muslim, and anti Hamas.

 

[Noor]

I think you need to recheck the Quran on that. Who, by the way, did you think lived in Jerricho when Moses's band (sans Moses) entered the region and knocked 'dem walls down?

What part of the Quran are you referring to? Also wasn’t it Joshua, who knocked the walls down?

 

[Sean Renaud]

Pretty much, yes, except that in the case of America, the European invaders didn't have a prior history of Europeans living in the region and the Zionists did have a history of prior settlement in the Holy Land. (The people they're displacing/trying to exterminate, though, have a history of continuous living in the region.) Another difference is that, although the Europeans did have a sense of a high worth of the land they were invading, it's nothing like the worth the Holyland is held it--but not just by Jews. By Muslims and Christians as well.

I do think there are moral equivalence connections, but I'm not sure if you thought there was more of a point in raising the America issue.

The Holy Land is MOSTLY important because it lies or at least did at an excellent place to to meet between Asian Nations and European Nations. It would in no way shock me to find out that people knew the value of the land and the legends got built up around that not the other way around. This fact a long with no small amount of fairly dumb luck that subsaharan Africa, Indigenous Americans and Indigenous Australians were so far behind the curve. Two of the groups were separated by literal oceans and until good sailing ships were invented the Sahara might as well have been an ocean. So knowledge and goods didn't make the jump from other cultures to those ones.

I'm not 100% certain how strong the moral equivalence is. Prior to World War 2 its not exactly like Europeans weren't doing the same to each other just with less success for a lot of reasons mostly listed above. With WW1 and WW2 everybody kind of agreed that collectively we'd been psychopaths and worse we really had the power to do things now that nations, if not the world (which I think is an exaggeration for a lot of reasons) would never recover from. In what amounted in real terms to final acts of cruelty the Middle East which was mostly formed after WW1 but still we dropped a nation on people because we felt bad.

Then many nations primarily in Africa but other places as were stuck with countries they had never learned to maintain because they had been the lower class for the most part in their own nations. Its functionally the same thing that happened to Europe after the fall of Rome. Technology that you can't use and books you can't read are kinda fucking worthless.

That isn't to excuse what America did to the Indigenous people and frighteningly recently. We like to treat it like its ancient history we were still being pretty fucked up to them as recently as the 1950s. Even if you only want to count direct violence some of you older fucks, your grandparents were literally there.

By contrast however Israel fell to Rome so on and so forth. It had been centuries since they had any truly valid claim to the land.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I think you need to recheck the Quran on that. Who, by the way, did you think lived in Jerricho when Moses's band (sans Moses) entered the region and knocked 'dem walls down?

That was Dwyane the Rock Johnson vs Chris Jericho. This was before he an Moana went island hopping. DUH.

 

[Lazaran]

If you're so morally laced up, how do you feel about invaders just showing up on the shores of a continent on top of an indigenous population and creating their own country by military force and pushing the indigenous population into enclaves in the most unproductive sectors of the region? And if you are so morally laced up, why wouldn't you justify the indigenous population trying to defend where they lived?

You really have no idea what happened in that region after WWII, do you?

•
I’ve made it quite clear that I will call out a contemporary heinous act without fear or favor.

For situation that involve historical periods where I wasn’t alive / present, and "man" was not what I (or modern society) would consider "civilized", I would take many factors and details into consideration before condemning anything.

Macro-societal level perceived heinous acts that occurred when I wasn’t alive / present, involving human migration and access to natural resources, do not inherently / necessarily warrant condemnation. “Needs must” comes into play.

Specific heinous acts perpetrated by a / the government / population that occurred when I wasn’t alive / present, but are well researched and documented can easily be condemned. (Wounded Knee, slavery, etc)

When it comes to the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, I was alive / present in the moment and easily condemned it based on video and verified documentary evidence. - You know who didn’t condemn it or show any concern for the victims???







Side note:

I’ve researched the hell out of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict AND the history and religions of the region, and I am well aware of the perceived heinous acts committed by some Jews on the Israeli side before, during, and after the nebulous region that WAS "Palestine" / "Judea" began to coalesce into the current Jewish state of Israel and the Palestinian territories of Gaza and The West Bank. But in light of the persecution and genocide Jews faced globally , plus the British colonial occupation of "Palestine" / "Judea", and the desperation for a Jewish State where Jews would be a controlling majority, (thus precluding their continued / continuing persecution) one might hesitate before declaring absolute condemnation of Israel for some Jew’s perceived heinous acts. And, notably, Israel wasn’t a state and was sans any centralized governing body when some of the worst of the perceived heinous acts were perpetrated by some Jews.

Contemporarily, I WOULD condemn Jewish settlers in the West Bank and those once in Gaza, but that whole situation is murky af. One would have to be permanently living in the area to make a determination if condemnation is / was warranted.



To think, I once was reluctant to condemn the Palestinians who were "ONLY" launching primitive rockets at Israel, slinging stones at Jews and their property, and occasionally murdering Jews with a knife or a bomb, because Israel WAS retaliating quite forcefully and with extreme prejudice.

The things we become numb to when exposed to it enough…

 

[Noor]

The Holy Land is MOSTLY important because it lies or at least did at an excellent place to to meet between Asian Nations and European Nations. It would in no way shock me to find out that people knew the value of the land and the legends got built up around that not the other way around. This fact a long with no small amount of fairly dumb luck that subsaharan Africa, Indigenous Americans and Indigenous Australians were so far behind the curve. Two of the groups were separated by literal oceans and until good sailing ships were invented the Sahara might as well have been an ocean. So knowledge and goods didn't make the jump from other cultures to those ones.

I'm not 100% certain how strong the moral equivalence is. Prior to World War 2 its not exactly like Europeans weren't doing the same to each other just with less success for a lot of reasons mostly listed above. With WW1 and WW2 everybody kind of agreed that collectively we'd been psychopaths and worse we really had the power to do things now that nations, if not the world (which I think is an exaggeration for a lot of reasons) would never recover from. In what amounted in real terms to final acts of cruelty the Middle East which was mostly formed after WW1 but still we dropped a nation on people because we felt bad.

Then many nations primarily in Africa but other places as were stuck with countries they had never learned to maintain because they had been the lower class for the most part in their own nations. Its functionally the same thing that happened to Europe after the fall of Rome. Technology that you can't use and books you can't read are kinda fucking worthless.

That isn't to excuse what America did to the Indigenous people and frighteningly recently. We like to treat it like its ancient history we were still being pretty fucked up to them as recently as the 1950s. Even if you only want to count direct violence some of you older fucks, your grandparents were literally there.

By contrast however Israel fell to Rome so on and so forth. It had been centuries since they had any truly valid claim to the land.

I don’t know if you are aware of this but Native American women and First Nations women have been disappearing. I probably wouldn’t know it if I didn’t have a fair number of native friends and live close to the border with Manitoba which still have a fair amount of indigenous people as does my state. So depending on what is disappearing these women, it’s still happening in 2020s.