Church. Why?

[jaF0]

The whole magical fantasy figure bit makes no sense to me. How do people fall so far as to believe in such silliness?

 

[Lazaran]

The whole magical fantasy figure bit makes no sense to me. How do people fall so far as to believe in such silliness?

Indoctrination through constant, fairly sophisticated, grooming and brainwashing techniques.

I've always seen the church not as shepherds tending to a flock of sheep, but rather as a pack of wolves strategically cooperating to concentrate the sheep in a tight bunch so they're easier to prey upon.

Much like other predators, the church targets the weak and vulnerable. Is it any wonder there are so many sexual predators in the church and similar organizations ?

 

[HisArpy]

Awe of God

I also read something a long time ago about how participating in religious functions as simple as going to mass, tend to create the same responses in our brains as exercise (ie the "runner's high"). This leads to feelings of happiness (rapture) and a desire to repeat the sensation (faithfulness).

Religion also enhances and underscores community values and practices so that everyone understands where everyone else is coming from when they interact. And they know who rejects them and their community by not participating in their weekly ritual of mass.

 

[HisArpy]

I agree, why? Religion is the root cause of human suffering since the inception of the Old Testament. Judaism, Islam and Christianity use the Old Testament as their holy book, the books are just in different orders. Christianity added the New Testament and Islam the Quran. Each religion can find the justification through their holy books for such atrocities as genocide, holy wars, slavery, misogyny and death for crimes like blasphemy, homosexuality and worshipping the wrong God or the right God in the wrong way. They contain ridiculous and reasonable passages. One can quote portions to justify loving your neighbour or killing their infidel neighbour. Some religious fundamentalists will find relatively benign interpretations of terrible passages while some liberals either ignore uncomfortable passages or treat them as metaphors. All three religions have contributed to human suffering. So I reiterate, why?

Because everyone needs a bad guy to keep them afraid of leaning that way themselves.


Hint: The "bad guy" in religion isn't that Morningstar dude. Who was it who created plagues, tempests, wholesale death of innocents, including children, on a biblical scale?

 

[nowisthetime]

Religion has helped mobilize social movements, particularly in Black America.


"The role of Black Christianity in motivating our country’s largest slave rebellion, Nat Turner’s rebellion, Southampton County, Va., is only the most dramatic example of the text of the King James Bible being called upon to justify the violent revolutionary overthrow of the slave regime. But we need only look at the brilliant use of the church in all of its forms — from W. E. B. Du Bois’s triptych of “the Preacher, the Music, and the Frenzy” to the use of the building itself — to see the revolutionary potential and practice of Black Christianity in forging social change. What most intrigues me about Marx’s full quote is his realization that it is at once “the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering,” a crucial part of the quote that seems to have fallen away."

snip

"The Black Church was the cultural cauldron that Black people created to combat a system designed to crush their spirit. "

Source: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/03/the-history-and-importance-of-the-black-church/


Religion, like many other things, can be used for beneficial or nefarious purposes, depending on whose hands it lands on.

 

[Cubantripod]

AS you get older and you contemplate your mortality, and you lose loved ones, there is comfort in it.

 

[FGB]

Religion has helped mobilize social movements, particularly in Black America.


"The role of Black Christianity in motivating our country’s largest slave rebellion, Nat Turner’s rebellion, Southampton County, Va., is only the most dramatic example of the text of the King James Bible being called upon to justify the violent revolutionary overthrow of the slave regime. But we need only look at the brilliant use of the church in all of its forms — from W. E. B. Du Bois’s triptych of “the Preacher, the Music, and the Frenzy” to the use of the building itself — to see the revolutionary potential and practice of Black Christianity in forging social change. What most intrigues me about Marx’s full quote is his realization that it is at once “the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering,” a crucial part of the quote that seems to have fallen away."

snip

"The Black Church was the cultural cauldron that Black people created to combat a system designed to crush their spirit. "

Source: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/03/the-history-and-importance-of-the-black-church/


Religion, like many other things, can be used for beneficial or nefarious purposes, depending on whose hands it lands on.

"Christianity in motivating our country’s largest slave rebellion"

Christianity And slave rebellion are not two things that go together originally.

As per usual Man and Satan has dived in and made it as Evil as possible.

 

[FGB]

AS you get older and you contemplate your mortality, and you lose loved ones, there is comfort in it.

Really.

I have been a Christian since the age of sixteen.

It is True, Christianity has grown in me as I gotten older...(Thank you Jesus) Looking back it is hard to remember the way I was before hand and for a few years after.

I was like a Rail Dragster on a NASCAR track...Disaster was fast approaching!

And I still have plenty of the Old Man in me but I AM, is working on it.

 

[njlauren]

"Christianity in motivating our country’s largest slave rebellion"

Christianity And slave rebellion are not two things that go together originally.

As per usual Man and Satan has dived in and made it as Evil as possible.

Christianity and Slavery has a tangled history. The abolitionists (who were a tiny fraction of the population pre civil war) were driven by religion, Wilberforth, an ex slaver who became a preacher and abolitionist (he wrote "Amazing Grace"), was driven by religion. On the other hand, in the US the Catholic Church never took a stand against slavery, and in slave states if slaves wanted to get married in the church their vows said that they had to be good boys and obey their master. The mainstream protestant churches in the US, the Episcopalians especially, might not have been pro slavery but they weren't anti, either, it was too good for business. The Quakers and Congregationalists were anti slavery and the Quakers were very active in abolitionism and the underground railroad. Not even gonna talk about the Southern Baptists, who claimed that blacks were the children of Cain so were punished by being slaves.

The bible itself has slavery in it, and Christ never condemned it. Paul in one of his epistles tells an escaped slave to go back to his master for example.

Black churches (MLK being an example) were part of the fight for civil rights, yet mainstream churches, including the Catholic Church, did not take a moral stand on Jim Crow and segregation (again, churches like the Quakers and the Congregationalists and UU did). The Catholic Bishops in the US as far as I know even after the civil war, never declared segregation or slavery as a moral evil, even in the 1960's. Not even gonna tell you what the evangelical churches attitudes are on racism and even slavery, they have never condemned slavery as a moral evil and many of them believe that black slaves were made Christian from being heathen so that made slavery ok.


In the 1930s the Nazis had on the table where they would let the Jews leave Germany (this is long before the final solution, they just wanted to get rid of them), and they had talks with the US about allowing emigration. The Southern Baptists and the evangelicals and the US conference of Bishops denounced any kind of mass emigration of Jews to the US and they outright told FDR and the Democrats if they attempted to let them in they would tell their people to vote republican (as a result the US took in a paltry amount of Jewish refugees). This was tribalism and bigotry at it worst.


So are churches evil? Not inherently, no. The problem is usually when religious people decide they have the one and only true faith, the only real belief,that is the problem, when it becomes tribalism based around faith. This came about with the Abrahamic religions mostly, in pagan times they would fight over almost anything but religion, the Roman and Greek gods tended to be local affairs, each place had their own Gods, and the Romans didn't care about other religions as such, as long as it didn't interfere with their political considerations (acknowledging the emperor). Christianity was persecuted because it posed a threat to that, not the beliefs. Judaism never saw itself as a universal religion, they still don't proslytize and while their actions towards non Jews may not have been always great, they had no reason to suppress native religions in other places because they don't try to convert people.


Churches do a lot of good that isn't strictly religious. Obviously there are the charity programs/mission work they do, churches like the Catholic church built hospitals and schools. But more importantly churches and synagogues built community. In synagogues when a kid was having trouble in school older kids would be assigned to help that kid, they felt that way in the community. In the catholic church it has community groups like CYO and all churches provide some sort fo counseling for people who are troubled. In liberal churches, people spit on by conservative churches find people who accept them, especially LGBT people.

Good churches also provide community to its people, also known as fellowship. They help people who may not have families, may have troubles, may be alone to have people around them.

And there is nothing wrong with belief, it is what you do with it. As a transgender person I can tell you that some of the people who had the least problems with what I did were pretty religious, while some of the more "liberal" people, especially among a certain segment of the lesbian and feminist communities, were as bad as any evangelical. Belief comforts people and can make them do great things, it also can make them support a scumbag like Donald Trump (who is not immoral, he is amoral, he literally has no morality). Belief comforts people, helps them understand a complicated world. I belonged for a time to a very liberal church that in some ways was comforting because they accepted someone like myself who didn't follow orthodox belief and questioned everything, they said the questions were worth more than the answers. Funny about that church, 100 years ago it was a well off Episcopal church that was very upper class (the town it was in had a lot of summer mansions for NY elites), but it served the workers who worked on the estates and such, many of them poor immigrants. It was a place where they could come to take a hot shower (many of them lived in cold water buildings), they could get a meal there, their kids found recreation, you name it.

I am not a fan of most religious groups, especially these days, not where they could turn Christianity into being anti abortion and anti gay so Donald Trump and the GOP are a godsend (yes, Catholic Biships, you), I find many of them conservative and liberal have lost sight of what they can be. But to knock religion is as bad as the religious right with their anti immigrant/pro white nationalism/anti sexuality as Christianity.

 

[Champakian]

The whole magical fantasy figure bit makes no sense to me. How do people fall so far as to believe in such silliness?

Some people believe in something bigger than themselves and small-minded people
will happily ridicule that, but for the most part, the religious are the backbone of our society.

All sorts of people believe in all sorts of silliness, ghosts, aliens, Oak Island, MMT (fiat money)...

Who knows? Eventually one of those intangible things might actually prove to be true.

But mocking them is just another way of dividing society by proclaiming: I am culturally superior!

But, you're not.


(Just to be clear, I am an Atheist, but not one of those militant preachy types.)

 

[Champakian]

I agree, why? Religion is the root cause of human suffering since the inception of the Old Testament. Judaism, Islam and Christianity use the Old Testament as their holy book, the books are just in different orders. Christianity added the New Testament and Islam the Quran. Each religion can find the justification through their holy books for such atrocities as genocide, holy wars, slavery, misogyny and death for crimes like blasphemy, homosexuality and worshipping the wrong God or the right God in the wrong way. They contain ridiculous and reasonable passages. One can quote portions to justify loving your neighbour or killing their infidel neighbour. Some religious fundamentalists will find relatively benign interpretations of terrible passages while some liberals either ignore uncomfortable passages or treat them as metaphors. All three religions have contributed to human suffering. So I reiterate, why?

Basic Human Nature is the root cause of human suffering...





... that predates the religions of one true god.

 

[Champakian]

It's always us versus them in the struggle over limited resources.

 

[jaF0]

All that 'stuff' can be, could have been done in any community setting.

 

[Sean]

"Christianity in motivating our country’s largest slave rebellion"

Christianity And slave rebellion are not two things that go together originally.

As per usual Man and Satan has dived in and made it as Evil as possible.

Christianity was used to justify slavery for fucking centuries.

 

[Rightguide]

Church. Why?

How do people fall so far as to believe in such silliness?

Just like you're free to take your daily plunge into the depths of ignorance, American's right to believe in a religion of their choice, or not to, is codified in the fundamental law of the land. Simply put, because they are free to do so.

 

[njlauren]

Some people believe in something bigger than themselves and small-minded people
will happily ridicule that, but for the most part, the religious are the backbone of our society.

All sorts of people believe in all sorts of silliness, ghosts, aliens, Oak Island, MMT (fiat money)...

Who knows? Eventually one of those intangible things might actually prove to be true.

But mocking them is just another way of dividing society by proclaiming: I am culturally superior!

But, you're not.


(Just to be clear, I am an Atheist, but not one of those militant preachy types.)

Saying the religious are the backbone of society is a pretty broad statement that on investigation doesn't hold up. While many people in this country do have some sort of belief, to argue they are the religious you talk about is problematic. Even back on our supposed "church going days", when like 90% of Catholics attended mass regularly, a lot of people who do so did it out of the notion they should , not that they can. These days church attendance continues to crater, in large part because religion has increasingly grown to being seen as a political rather than religious, among people below 40 attitudes towards religion and faith are shockingly bad (I don't blame them). Roughly 25% of the people even bother going to church and it is skewed, it is heavy among evangelicals and conservative Christians but they are maybe at most 25% of the population these days. Whereby church attendance among Catholics that was once at 90% today may be as low as 25% (depends on who is studying it, the church claims 50%).

And also what does backbone mean in a country where a lot of the visible religion has turned mean and ugly, aligning itself with white nationalism and with promoting the wealthy as blessed while demeaning the poor? It is actually nothing new, look up the history of organized labor in the US and even something that should have been a no brainer, child labor laws, and look at what church leaders said about those issues, you would be shocked. When you have churches that turn a scientific debate into Climate change into a matter of religious belief or can promote politicians who are anti abortion or anti gay while staying silent as those politicians rip apart the safety net or give huge tax breaks to the rich while hurting the poor and powerless, you can't argue that.

 

[njlauren]

Ya people suck balls.

Very true, but on the other hand those who lead the religions, who write the holy books and of course the believers, are human, and they turn a tool that was supposed to help people understand what it meant to be human, to love others as you love yourself and your deity (they all have this, all the belief systems). Just take a look at conservative Christians in the US, people like Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, and tell me they evoke Christian principles, or probably most of the evangelicals.

 

[Riles]

I’m always conflicted with the possibility of a god and the requirements that seem to go along with the belief in them. I was christened when I was a baby and I am old enough that there was still remnants of Christian practices in school. I’m not against church or organized relation even. I consider the small town exposure I had as more of a community building opportunity and never got exposed to the fire and brimstone side of the bible so to speak. But I run into a personal issue that I could never find balance for; my dad committed suicide and I can’t reconcile that with him being in some kind of hell because of it. He wasn’t a religious man. So...what happened to his soul? I can’t do the heaven and hell bit because of it. And yet, when my son lay dying I prayed to any and all who might listen. I begged and negotiated and did everything any parent would in a helpless situation. In turn, even though I don’t really believe, for his recovery, I make a point of doing private charitable work in thanks, because I said I would . I’ve been told I view religion wrong - that it isn’t transactional and yet it’s also said that if I follow rules xyz I will go to heaven. None of it sits right with me and yet I can’t avoid bumping up against it through life.

 

[jaF0]

So...what happened to his soul?

Nothing because there isn't one. Do you worry about the soul of a tomato when you eat it? When you stomp on a spider? Trap/poison a mouse? We are organic entities, nothing more, nothing less. There is no before or after.

 

[Riles]

Nothing because there isn't one. Do you worry about the soul of a tomato when you eat it? When you stomp on a spider? Trap/poison a mouse? We are organic entities, nothing more, nothing less. There is no before or after.

There is that possibility of course, and I generally subscribe to a more organic take on it all, just to avoid the dilemma I mentioned above.

But even so, the point was, I prayed like the pope when it came to the life of my kid.

So...yeah. I’m a mess in terms of religious belief.

 

[njlauren]

There is that possibility of course, and I generally subscribe to a more organic take on it all, just to avoid the dilemma I mentioned above.

But even so, the point was, I prayed like the pope when it came to the life of my kid.

So...yeah. I’m a mess in terms of religious belief.

I sympathize with your quandary, it is one of the problems with traditional religion and the way it has been practiced. The idea of this omniscient and omnipotent God leads to all kinds of problems (theodicity) , like if there is this all knowing and omnipotent God who answers all prayers, then why the hell is there all this suffering in the world? How can God let people die of starvation or allow a child to be abused (especially when the abusers are priests or other religious figures). Why does God 'allow this'? Traditional Christian response to this was usually "You can't question that, God works in mysterious ways, there is a reason for that. " Really? what a cop out!

And yes, church teachings drive me nuts. When someone commits suicide it is usually someone who has grown depressed or either has a mental illness other than depression. The glorious churches look at this rigidly and say "killing yourself is a sin, if you take your life you are going to burn in hell". This is absolutely aweful, it de facto is saying the poor soul who did this is evil and making someone who is mentally out of whack responsible for their actions, it is so medieval it is sickening. Not to mention what it does to the lives of the loved ones left behind, telling people grieving that the person who killed themselves is going to hell? What a bunch of warm, loving people, right?

Okay, if someone commits suicide because they are a Nazi war criminal or something, that act should be the reason to send them to hell,not the act of suicide.

Reminds me of the glorious Catholic Church that would tell parents distraught because their kid died before it could be baptized that the child was going to hell (they later on, when enough people had the balls to call them on it, said "oh, it won't go to hell, it only goes to purgatory").

In terms of prayer, the way I look at it is it isn't a transactional relationship. I don't believe in the deistic God answering all prayers, I believe that prayer or meditation or pagan ritual allows us to send out energy, hopefully magnified by others, that can cause change, can cause a more positive outcome than otherwise happened. The studies that claimed prayers showed better outcomes for sick patients were put under scrutiny, but studies have shown that when the patient knows they are being prayed for and loved ones are praying for them, they do seem to do better. Is that God? I don't know, maybe it is something we know happens, mind over matter, maybe if you prayed for your son's recovery it put you more at peace, your son picked up on it, and that helped make him better. It is also possible that prayer/meditation/ritual isn't enough to counter what is going on, and what someone wants doesn't happen.

The real problem is when religion bases everything on rigid dogma and rules formulated by people that forget that instead of providing people with comfort, making their life on this earth better, they are obsessed with the afterlife (if it exists) and with some rigid criteria of who is good enough to get there. Funny, Christ challenged something similar with the Seducees in the Temple, whose mantra was only those pure enough could enter the temple and worship God, only they were fit enough. Orthodox Christianity translated that into "if you don't believe the right thing, if you don't follow church rules and teaching to the letter, you aren't good enough and you will go to hell." If there is a God like the bible describes that makes zero sense; The God there doesn't want people to rigidly follow rules or dogma, God wants you to thrive, God wants you to be happy, he wants you to live a heaven on earth while you are also supposed to transfer that to other people, too . A lot of orthodox Christian teaching is more about having people in fear of the church and its authority, toeing the line to them (hey, power is a wonderful thing) rather than what it is supposed to do.

 

[Riles]

^ there is a lot to unpack in there, and I will....just not tonight. I thank you for such detail and obvious consideration. Let me do what I can in return, on a day where I’m not totally beat.

 

[Tryharder62]

Christianity was used to justify slavery for fucking centuries.

"The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was based more on economics; it was a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters."

This ^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[pink]

I used to go to church quite often. It brought me peace and calm.

 

[juttjaw]

A lot of orthodox Christian teaching is more about having people in fear of the church and its authority, toeing the line to them (hey, power is a wonderful thing) rather than what it is supposed to do.

The goal of almost any church is money. Plain and simple. The more money you give, the godlier you are. I'm talking Christian churches. It's been the goal from the beginning... Money is power.