Child Support....is It Still For The Child?

[GuyJD]

While driving home from my ex-girlfriend's house, I was listening to talk radio and this subject was the topic of discussion. It pissed me off so much that I managed to drive home in less than an hour and it was a 60 mile drive.

Many callers, predominately fathers paying child support, called and explained how they are paying thousands of dollars for child support but the ex-wife/girlfriend choses to use the money for their own personal luxuries (i.e., hair & nails done, new car, trips to take with thier new boyfriends, etc.) I was shocked. One caller suggested that Congress should create a bill stating that ALL expenses for the child should be itemized in order to calculate the exact amount needed for child support to prevent this matter from getting out of hand as it has.

What totally did it for me is when an 18 year old guy called the station and told the DJ's that he was kicked out of his Mom's home at age 14. Yet, she still continued to collect $300 a month of child support and neither he nor his Dad could do anything about it. The guy said that he's never seen a dime of the $14,400 that his Mom collected and now he has to rely on student loans to go to college, as opposed to a college fund that should have been established years ago.

When, exactly, is child support solely used for the child and not for Mom to get a new dress or Dad to get new fishing poles?

 

[SweetCherry]

OK, as a mom collecting child support, I often spend the money I get from the ex on bills and food. If I spend it on myself, it's because I've paid everything for the month out of what I already have and am now broke.

Example: I had gotten paid as most of the monthly bills were due and had to pay them all. A few days later I got my child support. I went shopping for a few things and bought myself a book. Had the child support been in a few days earlier, I'd have paid for the book out of my own pocket. But when it comes down to it,. when I'm paying the bills which they can be helping with what they get, is it a major offence to spend $20 of it on myself once in a while? I see it as "family money". We share it all. More often than not tho, they are the ones benefitting from my way of thinking.

 

[p_p_man]

I see it as "family money". We share it all.

Maybe I'm seeing this in black and white, but I don't see it as "family money" at all.

It's for the kid and only the kid.

ppman

 

[Batgirl]

You say that it was mainly fathers that called into the radio to complain about where their childsupport is going. Most mothers spend all of the childsupport on their children, fathers tend to forget that children are expensive and that on a day to day basis the guardians are forking out for food, clothing, medical expenses, school costs, sports, entertainment etc Generally all of the money in the household is pooled, now if there is money left over why shouldn't the guardian have his/her hair done or go on holiday. We tend to forget that this person has already spent thousands of dollars of their own income raising this child/children and will continue to do so.
Because the guardian doesn't run out on the day that the child support arrives and buy something for the children doesn't mean that he/she is neglecting the kids so she/he can have treats.
As with everything some people will do the wrong thing - though I actually have a hard time believing that someone is able to collect childsupport when she is no longer supporting that child; there are laws to prevent that from happening.
Don't cast everyone in the same mould.
And before you ask I have never recieved a childsupport payment in my life for either of my two children, this is despite their father being ordered by the courts to do so on more than one occasion.

 

[SweetCherry]

Maybe I'm seeing this in black and white, but I don't see it as "family money" at all.

It's for the kid and only the kid.

ppman

It's in the laws that is can be used for things like food, rent, heat, electricity, ect. When I've spent all my money on everything else and am flat broke cuz I've bought and paid for everything that they already need and have, I see it as family money. It's the same as when both partners are working. It's "family money", not yours and mine.

 

[TN_Vixen]

child support

My ex and I have been divorced since our son was 2 and for 4 years now he hasn't paid any child support. His argument is that I make more money than he does and so, why should he have to pay? Bullshit. I shouldn't be penalized for making more money - the child is his just as much as it is mine. For the record, the amount the judge requires him to pay doesn't even cover the cost of his monthly after-school care.

And, ppman - most fathers who have joint custody of their children only spend time with them every other weekend. They don't even have to have a 2 BR apt. in order to house an extra person or two that long. Whereas, the Mother on the other hand must provide housing to compensate for the kids. If you're renting a place, going from a 1 BR to a 2 or 3 BR becomes quite expensive. Clothing, daycare, food, haircuts, birthdays, Christmas, movies, sporting events... all of these expenses are taken on by the Mom.

Now, I agree that the Mom shouldn't be out spending the money on a new dress, the cable bill or Starbucks coffee every morning on her way to work... but itemizing every single cost you spend towards the effort of raising a child can become worse than itemizing a tax return.

 

[p_p_man]

OK...

I'm beginning to see the grey areas...

pp

 

[MidnightAngel]

One caller suggested that Congress should create a bill stating that ALL expenses for the child should be itemized in order to calculate the exact amount needed for child support to prevent this matter from getting out of hand as it has.

Oh...I TOTALLY agree on this one! Maybe if I did this, my ex would see that it costs WAY more than $50 a week to raise a teenager!

As a mother and custodial parent of my son, I feed, cloth, shelter, buy school lunches, pay for band instruments, pay medical bills (including a $3000 orthodontist bill, which my ex did not pay ONE CENT of), plus I provide for his "wants", those incidental things that he doesn't "need" to survive, but that make being a kid fun.

Meanwhile.....my ex has bought new vehicles, a condo, and takes lavish vacations. While he pays $50 a week child support. And to top it off? He owes me approximately $10,000 in back support and half of the child's medical bills not covered by insurance; none of which I'll ever see.

I'm NOT saying that all fathers are like this, but SOME ARE. And I'm sure that some Mothers who pay child support are, too. The child support system here is seriously flawed, I agree. It is flawed in that the parent who has custody of the child bears a much larger burden of financial responsibilty than the non-custodial parent.

My opinion.

 

[BlondGirl]

I don't know anyone who

1.) Gets enough child support to even cover child care (approx 300$/month here in my area) AND insurance (I was paying 300+ out of my own pocket--even though this is his court ordered responsibility and would not cost him a dime with his other kids on his ins plan)

2.) Spends less on their kids in a month than they get in child support.

Guy JD,
My situation was that I was impoverished by my pregnancy. I was diagnosed with an illness and was bed-bound for 7 months. I lost everything and had to start from scratch. That is even more difficult when there is NO child support to cover that child care cost during the first 18 months. (Only the 158$ welfare check to cover rent, toilet paper, elec, phone, transportation, shampoo, baby tylenol, diapers--must be disposable for daycare, etc)
Now, even though he was working full time in a "good job" and was the type who typically would blow from 100-300$/date, he would not spare a dime.
If we had stayed together, he would be spending way more than his child support each month. We all know it--because things like baby tylenol and diapers and socks and school books, and all the other things that are standard in his other children's lives would be applied to my own son.

Now, about the arguement that the mother might get her hair fixed or whatever. If she spends MOST of her money on things that are for the FAMILY or the CHILD, as I do, then what difference is it that she does something that can make her feel better about herself? How does this harm the child? I know that I, personally, still feel guilty about having my hair cut when I go because of your same version of reasoning. Of course, I make my own money and have worked my ass off to get the bit that I do have-what does it harm me to use the money I get myself on myself.
Itemizing any money in a family will add stress by:
1.)putting pressure on the family to waste time that would be spent elsewhere.
2.)Someone would have to check this information--do you want to pay thousands of government workers at full salary out of your tax dollars to do this? How would that affect your own tax payments?

When I meet a man who pays child support in the amount that he would be paying for childcare in the exact number of hours that his child's mother does, then I might be swayed. I get 380$/month for child support. (Notice the "I". My 9 year old is not the financial decision maker here in the house-LOL)
Now, what would 24/7 childcare be, including weekends and holidays? Hhhhmmm...

I also want to make note, the guys you hear calling in with extreme cases are exactly that: extreme cases. There is no system that will work for everybody. (And I would have to wonder why a teenager would be kicked out of the house. I have only once seen it once because of a neurotic mother.)

 

[Georgia Girl]

I have not had a problem recieving my childsupport but my ex has to pay the court and not me, so if he is late he deals with them not me. The other side of the coin in that while the amount he pays may seem significant there is not $50 dollars left once my sons daycare expense is paid. This does not take into account any of the rest of the day to day expenses as others have stated. Add a nice healthy medical bill in and you are over the top. My son currently has Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, I am the one missing days from work to be with him, paying for medication, trips to the doc, lab work, etc.

None of this is meant to come across as me whining about the state of things. I would gladly find a way to do without the child support to remove my ex from mine and my sons life permanently.

Dawn

 

[daughter]

Having been on both sides of the fence

While a parent may missuse the funds, that does not exonerate a parent from providing the support. Do your part. And seek whatever recourse you can to see that it benefits the child. I can tell you there is little you can do, but not paying is unfair to that child. Too much money and resources is already wasted on Friend of the Court buracracy. I do not want to any additional tracking. This agency hurts more families than it helps.

Many women are not getting fat checks, and I wish folks would not insinuate that a custodial parent is getting over. Conversely, many parents are paying more than they can afford. The problem is with the system and the formulas they use. The system does not care if the paying parent can afford to support him/herself on the remaining income nor does the system care if the caregiver is doing right by the child.

I have one child that has not benefitted from support for 14 of her 16 years. My youngest child does not in my opinion, benefit from the support I pay.

I not only pay child support, I provide monies for all extracurricula activities. I purchase 90% of her clothing and any fun items she wants. I have played Santa for the three years she has lived with her father. I have to send her home with foodstuffs for lunches because he claims he can't afford it. I buy all books and any additional educational materials I want her to have.

My daughter comes home in the raggediest things he seems to have. I have gone to her school and she looks unkempt even though I have bought brand new uniforms for school every year. She seldomly has on any of good things I buy her. I have to keep an entire wardrobe at my home so that she has something decent to wear. I have receipts to prove I provide for her. The court will not recognize this as form of support. That's right. Only checks written for support are used to calculate support provided. Child support cannot be claimed on income tax by paying parent so you're taxed as a single person while you are supporting a dependent.

Would you suggest I stop paying support? How does that benefit my daughter?

I agreed to change physical custody for what I believe would be beneficial for my child. I voluntarily chose to cooperate with her dad, but now I will have to fight to have physical custody again and the system questions what kind of parent I am for agreeing to the arrangement!

Men are not the only victims and children should not be caught between the power struggle of parents.

Somethings are unfair. Parenting is about kids. We are the adults. Suck it up and move on. I do it everyday. I get angry and frustrated plenty of days. I cannot force her father to do what is best. I can do what is best for my child.

Her needs are met. I am her mother. I will support despite my anger and resentment. Loving your child means acting inspite of.

((d through ranting and getting off her soapbox))

Peace,

daughter

 

[Nigel]

Warning - this MIGHT be a tad long.....

This thread really hits close to home for me - not because I'm a divorced father, but because my parents divorced when I was three, and I saw it all from the child's side. And now that I've grown up, I see and understand what I didn't when I was a kid.

What most support-paying parents would like from their spouse is accounting that would confound an entire team of accountants from Price Waterhouse. Say, for instance, that the support is $500 a month. The division of household expenses alone would be daunting. How much of the rent is for the child's portion of the house or apartment? How much of the food bill is food that the child ate? What portion of the water, gas, and electric did the child use? Take a trip to the department store - the total came to $200 dollars. What part of that was for the child? The house needs a new fridge - what portion of that cost should be allotted to the storage of food for the kid? Also, childcare that allows the custodial parent to work has to be paid for. And what I've described is merely the tip of the iceberg. If you COULD separate all of the living, housing, clothing, etc. costs that are strictly for the child and divide by half (since both parents are equally responsible for the child's care, safety, and well-being), then the support decided upon by the court couldn't realistically begin to cover the half of the child's support that the non-custodial parent is responsible for. And it's silly to expect the custodial parent to keep the support money in a separate "fund"....and to pay the child's expenses from that fund. Can you imagine it? Writing a rent check for a thousand dollars - then taking the child's half-portion from the "fund" to deposit into the checking account.....it's mind-boggling...and ridiculous.

Also, look at support from the child's point of view - which I can only do personally. My dad was ordered to pay $100.00 a month as support for my sister and I. In the beginning, he paid pretty regularly - and picked us up for weekends with him pretty regularly. Then the visits, and the support, started getting more and more spotty. I learned about the support at a very early age...and looked in the mail each month for an envelope from the DA's office - which contained the support check. When it got to the point that Dad wasn't calling or getting us for the weekend, those envelopes from the DA became very important to me - because it was the only way that I could see that my dad still loved us and cared about us. When the envelopes started appearing less and less...and finally not at all - the feeling of loss and grief was indescribable. And finally, when I was in college, dad petitioned the court to stop child support for me, as I'd turned 18. I went to court with my mom and saw my dad standing next to an attorney - who argued that I was no longer a minor, and that back support should be forgiven, since "They've gotten along fine without it." Well, it wasn't fine. It was very hard on my mom, as well as my sister and I. And I saw the judge look at me and say "It appears that this young man is old enough to take care of himself," and end support - as well as unpaid support - for me. I wanted to scream at him, "Why are you saying that it's okay that he stopped loving me way back then? And why are you saying that it's okay for him not to love me now??" But, I didn't. And when my dad looked at me.....I looked back at him with anger...and sadness.

So, gang....take it from a grown up kid who's been there. If you owe support, send it. If you have visitation, take it. I don't care if your ex is a bitch or a bastard or whatever. The kids are always watching...and listening...and using that special kid sense that tells them what's going on. And more than likely, the kid is blaming his or her self for the bad stuff that's happening - even the divorce. Don't let them carry the rest of your shit along with them the rest of their lives. Why do you think I'm almost 40 and still never been married or had kids, though I've wanted them all my life? Kind of easy to figure out, huh?

Nigel

 

[VanB]

Wow a really interesting thread

This child support issue is one that is so difficult to get balanced right.

I'mseparated from my daughter's mother and pay monthly support which I consider to be way too much for my daughter's needs. However, I do think that the money is used to provide not just basic essentials for my daughter but also a happy environment for her. Her mother doesn't work despite having previously had a high paying job with an international bank so I'm supporting her too.

The upshot is that whilst I know I'm supporting them both and that the holidays they go on I'm paying for etc. I don't mind so long as my daughter is happy and well looked after. I also trust her mother not to unnecessarily blow money on herself that should be spent on or saved for my daughter.

What really, really fucks me off though is that my daughter wont come on holiday with me despite that she is always loving and happy with me when I see her.

So to recap: The money anyone pays in support shouldn't be seen as only to be spent on the bare essentials for their kids but also on providing some quality of life for their kid, if you can.

All IMHO of course

 

[Vivacia]

I have to agree with Nigel, in the end it is the kids that get hurt by the parents bickering how much/little they should pay!

My parents divorced when I was very young, (about 7) and it was hard enough having the social worker make me try and "choose" who I wanted to live with.

My father gained custudy, and that was fine, but as a single-parent father (yes they DO exsist, and in larger numbers then the UK government seems to understand) he recieved little or no finacial help at all. He brought me up the best he could, and I never wanted for anything I really needed, and learnt the value of money real quick.

There are shit loads of benefits for the "single-parent mothers" in various forms from govenment hand-outs to tax relief, well when I was growing up there was none of that to help Dad, and as far as I am aware there is still nothing in place for lone fathers.

Dad had to try and keep a roof over my head and food in my mouth so had to work, which meant child-care expenses. The list of money he had to find for my benefit was never ending. I never begrudged my Dad a new hair cut or book, because compared with what he was paying out for me that was a pitence. and hell he deserved to treat himself sometimes.

Though I feel for those of you that feel you are paying too much, I want you just to sit and think just what figure you would put on your love to that child. For thats how they see it, the amount of time/money that you have for them is how they gadge your love.
It may be a naive way of looking at it but hey, they are just kids.

My mother had. and still has, very little to do with me - I am now 24.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Please define "For the child".

That new car is 'for the child' if the other car was unsafe or failing mechanically.

Making house payments in a nicer neighborhood is 'for the child'.

The new hair/nails? Did it help mom get that job she needed to pay the expenses that Child Support doesn't cover?

No where does it say that child support should be set aside for the child. It is for the support and care of the child/ren. My mother received $400 per month from my dad when he felt like paying. That was for 4 kids. Think that was enough to even buy groceries?

My kid related expenses...

groceries: $200/month
daycare: $800/month
house payment (only half of it): $350/month
riding/hockey/dance (depending on the season): $100/month
^^^That may not be considered important, but she loves it, and I'm willing to make the sacrifice to see the things she learns from it.

That doesn't include diapers, clothing, incidentals, movie rentals, special days out, car seats, dentist trips, doctor visits, cough medicine... or anything else that kids need that no one thinks about.

In this state, I MIGHT get $600/month in child support. It wouldn't even begin to support my kids. If you're going to complain that mom's use child support for frivolous things, first, make sure they're truly frivolous, and second, make sure the child support is making an impact on the kid's life.

 

[daughter]

The same issues affect a parent regardless of gender

There are shit loads of benefits for the "single-parent mothers" in various forms from govenment hand-outs to tax relief, well when I was growing up there was none of that to help Dad, and as far as I am aware there is still nothing in place for lone fathers.

Vivacia--

I don't know where you live, but support is provided to custodial parents. That is irrelevant of gender. Please explain to me all this help I am getting? In my state, aid is offered to single parents not single mothers, and the hand out is not hand out condsidering I have been paying taxes since I was 14.

I know plenty of single dads. The issues are the same. The struggle of raising a child or paying support affects plenty of women. And not all mothers who are not custodial parents are horrible human beings.

There may have been a social stigma and fewer resources for your father, but from where I sit and I've been on both ends, neither is attractive.

Social stigmas go both ways. And since no one has mentioned it, child support is calculated on the income of both parents.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Calamity Jane]

There are shit loads of benefits for the "single-parent mothers" in various forms from govenment hand-outs to tax relief, well when I was growing up there was none of that to help Dad, and as far as I am aware there is still nothing in place for lone fathers.

I live in the US, so am only familiar with the way things work here. My father was allowed to claim us children as dependants as part of the divorce settlement. So, he also got to claim 'Head of Household' which is a huge tax break. Mom didn't get that, even though she had custody of us.

There is no distinction here between single fathers and single mothers. Single parenting is single parenting. Is it possible that your father didn't know where to look for assistance?

My father made about $60,000 a year most of my childhood. My mom made maybe $10,000 cleaning other people's houses so that she could be home with us when we weren't in school. My step-father made $30,000 in a good year. There were 5 of us children in the house full time and occasionally my step-brother and sister would live with us when their mom tired of them. I understand being poor, I understand trying to stretch a meal to feed more people than intended, and I know that the amount the courts decide is fair won't come close to covering the costs of caring for a child, no matter how many government programs you qualify for.

 

[Vivacia]

I am in the UK, and the system for child support is very different here then in the States.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone but I was calling it as I saw it.

 

[Slinky'sWench]

OK, as a mom collecting child support, I often spend the money I get from the ex on bills and food. If I spend it on myself, it's because I've paid everything for the month out of what I already have and am now broke.

Example: I had gotten paid as most of the monthly bills were due and had to pay them all. A few days later I got my child support. I went shopping for a few things and bought myself a book. Had the child support been in a few days earlier, I'd have paid for the book out of my own pocket. But when it comes down to it,. when I'm paying the bills which they can be helping with what they get, is it a major offence to spend $20 of it on myself once in a while? I see it as "family money". We share it all. More often than not tho, they are the ones benefitting from my way of thinking.

Just wanted to add my bit as a single mum who totally agrees with Cherry here.

I do however believe that the CSA in the Uk sux and should be reviewed

 

[GuyJD]

ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY A FEW ISSUES......

BATGIRL: You're right. I mentioned that the majority of the callers were men paying child support. I failed to mention the few women who called and told stories about their boyfriends/fiancees/husbands who are going through the nightmare of paying a huge amount of money for child support because the mother is more jealous than supportive when he's moved on with his life. In addition to the child support, the guys have to also pay the mother's legal fees. Here's a thought.....WHAT IF THE LEGAL FEES WERE TAKEN OUT OF THE CHILD SUPPORT PAYMENT BEFORE THE MOTHER EVEN SEES THE MONEY? Chances are, alot of this bickering will end. No mother will continuously go to court to ask for more support if she knows that her legal fees will be deducted from it first.

Sadly BATGIRL, no "mothers" called to argue that point. One woman did call and pissed off a hell of alot of listeners when she felt that it was fair for her to get her hair and nails done, pay her SUV off, and take a trip with her child's child support money. Excuse me? Her child is not on the contract of that SUV purchase. Her nails and hair is her responsibility, not her child's.

Don't get me wrong. I hate deadbeat dads as much as I hate deadbeat moms and greedy parents who abuse the child support system. I once helped 2 friends of mine locate their children's father so that they are able collect the back child support. I still remember one telling me how the guy called her a few names (and none were her own) when $1200 was deducted from the large tax refund that he was expecting.

I have no problem understanding Jr. is attending a private school that is being paid through his father's $1000/month child support fund. But don't tell me that Jr. is eating at McDonald's, wearing his cousin's hand me downs, and sleeping on a mattress on the floor when his dad is paying $1000/month and Mom has a brand new bedroom set for her and her new boyfriend to enjoy. That is the kind of issue that pisses me off.

My solution.........Open a trust fund or bank account for the child and have all of the child support go there and not in Mom's greedy hands.

 

[MidnightAngel]

Re: ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY A FEW ISSUES......

My solution.........Open a trust fund or bank account for the child and have all of the child support go there and not in Mom's greedy hands.

What, exactly, makes Moms "greedy"?? Asking that an absent parent contribute some small amount to the child's support?? The truth is, IMO, there are *very* few mothers who collect enough child support to cover even HALF the cost of raising a child. I think that the idea of a trust fund for the child support is WONDERFUL. My question would be: Who gets to make up the difference when there's not enough money in the fund to pay for the child's expenses?

 

[Bigdog]

Just a short post, I'll add more after work.

Let's throw in some basic math here. According to recent data I've seen, it costs about $200,000 to raise a child to the age of 18. Divide that by 216 (18 years x 12 months) and you get $925 per month. Measure that against your usual support payment and all of a sudden life isn't so unfair for the paying parent.

For every mother going wild with the support money, there are dozens more who barely or can't make ends meet. They just don't get noticed.

 

[daughter]

the notion of greedy mothers

GuyD--

Did you read through these replies? How practical is it to have a separate account and just who is going to make the deductions from it and make payments? When is she suppose to give accounting records for the child's portion of the rent and food. You sound as is if you believe most mothers are scamming and I find that offensive.

And what's up with calling mothers greedy? Most are not recieving support or not enough. How many dads do you know are paying $1000 a month?

Did you miss the quotes of $800 for childcare a month?

We are clearly talking about income levels that are above what most of us, mothers are discussing. I know one man who pays close to that and it's for 3 not 1 child.

Peace,

daughter

 

[MissTaken]

In that situation, GuyJD, I would have to agree. If the mother's standard of living is improved AS WELL AS the child's, so be it. But, for a single parent to view child support as play money for them while the children have no "play money" is wrong and is, in my experience, the exception not the rule.

A common discussion that I have with my ex is that he doesn't know what it costs to raise children as he never took part in the financial piece when we were together. Since leaving, I did break down the expenses, showed him reciepts for clothing etc just to demonstrate that my life was no better and that I don't have alot of free money for me. Yes...he suckered me into that discussion.

However, when negotiating child support, we set up support to equate our incomes so that the children's standard of living wouldn't be compromised by either parent. i.e. we could both afford similar housing, vehicles, recreation. It sounds all nicey nice, but wasn't in the beginning. Ultimately, he still begrudges every cent he sends us.

Furthermore, in a funny mood and while we were both in good humor, I suggested he pay me an hourly wage to raise his children. We laughed. Fortunately, he does understand that there is an incredible commitment on my part to raise the children while allowing him as much time and responsibility as he choses to take on or ignore....as the case may be.

Sorry....slipped away from the point. Basically, 20 bucks to get my hair done is okay as long as the kidlings aren't running around with hair down to their ass that never gets washed!

I like the term "Family Money."

 

[quilesed]

I know exactly what you are saying. I pay 800 dollars a month for CS and it seems that every month my ex is hitting me up for things that my kids need. I understand that they might need little things but it seems that they need stuff that she should buy with her money. I know for a fact that she and her husband spend the money on themselves instead of my kids. what should i do?