Cheating

[hiddenself]

SHOULD? You say should? For as long as the aggrieved party feels like it and the perpetrator is willing to stick around for. I was not aware that there is an etiquette on this.

 

[shereads]

If a person in a relationship cheats, and they break up but then they get back together, how long should this person have to pay for their mistake?

18 months.

 

[Mhari]

I think it all depends on the person. Some people can forgive such a betrayal, though it takes time. Some can't.

I've learned that I fall into the "can't" field. I keep thinking that I "should" be able to forgive certain people who have betrayed me, but the bald fact is that I can't. Especially my cheatin' ex. I could *pretend* to forgive, sure, but that would be a sham. And that isn't fair to either of us.

So for me, when faced with betrayal...I tend to prefer trying to forget the betrayer's existence, if circumstances allow it. It may sound harsh, but anyone who could betray a friend isn't someone I want around, anyway.

So how long should the betrayer pay for their mistakes? I guess...forever. Not that I actually make anyone "pay". After I get over the murderous rage, I always decide that I don't want to lower myself to that level. Ignoring works just fine.

 

[NoJo]

To answer the question at the top of the thread, I harbored a resentment against my partner for about fifteen years, after her first betrayal, during those fifteen years, I was betrayed again a few times. Then I betrayed her a few times. Then we tried an open relationship. Then we broke up. After another two years, we decided to get back together again. It's only been a few months, but things are pretty good.

Every time I've been betrayed by, or betrayed my partner, it was usually because of a lack of agreement on the rules of the relationship.

I've been with my partner on and off for over twenty years. What tends to happen in long term relationships is that we change, and so the rules change, imperceptably. You need to reestablish them continually.

Another reason for betrayal is when we hide things through fear, but they get out one day:

You sleep with your partners' best friend, and live in hope that it will never get found out: After all, you love your partner, and couldn't stand it if you broke up. But then she pisses you off one day; maybe she flirted at a party, you went home, she didn't come back till four A.M. : You have a row, and, suddenly you drop the bombshell. Then she drops her bombshell. You've cleared the air, but now you have to build trust from zero.

Of course, a lot of people just don't have this problem. They say "fuck you", and move onto the next relationship. Hopefully they'll have learned something about trust for next time anyway.

I think I've learned how to avoid betrayal in my relationship, after twenty years. There's a lot of work, and a lot of pain involved. You have to decide if the relationship is worth it.

It's worth trying to forgive, if you love your partner. In fact it's always worth trying to forgive, even if you don't love them, because you'll need a lot of practice at it, so you can deal with the inevitable betrayals once you do find true love.

 

[dirtylover]

Hi...

Is this a hypothetical or personal question?


I find the best way to deal with someone cheating on you is to cheat back, but worse. This girl kissed my friend once and so I slept with her mother. That showed her.

Unfortunately the mother got pregnant and gave birth to twins, katy and stacy. My friend came in when me and stacy's mum where at it, and ran out crying.

The girl later asked her mommy why I was doing 'things' to her.
I wills stop writing now.

 

[raphy]

It's worth trying to forgive, if you love your partner. In fact it's always worth trying to forgive, even if you don't love them, because you'll need a lot of practice at it, so you can deal with the inevitable betrayals once you do find true love.

And people think *I'm* cynical...

Wow, Joe.

 

[Guest]

And people think *I'm* cynical...

I don't think of you as cynical at all, Raff (you're too young). I thought Joe's post the best of the thread (bone truthful).

Perdita

 

[raphy]

I don't think of you as cynical at all, Raff (you're too young). I thought Joe's post the best of the thread (bone truthful).

Perdita

Some people do, cara'dita

And I do disagree that betrayal is inevitable. Before my mother's death, my parents had years and years of happy faithful marriage, and betrayal never once reared it's ugly head.

I strive to emulate that example.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I'm not saying you're wrong- but it's kind of hard to be objective about our own parent's relationships.

And sometimes the more 'perfect' it seems from the outside, the more dificult a time the kids have when the dificulties arise in their own relationships.

Not that that has anything to do with you- just an observation based on people I've known.

Some people do, cara'dita

And I do disagree that betrayal is inevitable. Before my mother's death, my parents had years and years of happy faithful marriage, and betrayal never once reared it's ugly head.

I strive to emulate that example.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Some of the resposes basicly say that the person should not be forgiven- or at least the person who was cheated on should basicly cut their losses. I agree that this is probably the best course of action in most circumstances.

However, the circumstance that I am speaking about is one in which the person does decide- for whatever reason- to rekindle the relationship. I realize that there is no 'set time' but, I guess I'm just wondering if it seems reasonable to take the person back but not forgive them. Although it was wrong of the person, it obviouly is not healthy for either the individual or relationship to live in a constant state of 'unforgiveness' Should that person just be a martyre, or should the person expect the other to stop dwelling on the past after some reasonable amount of time. Does the cheater have any right to expect healing and forgiveness in the case were they have been 'taken back' or does staying in the relationship just mean being punished until the one who was wronged feels like they are done punishing (or the 'cheater' just decides to leave)

Again- I'm not asking 'should they be taken back' that part is already decided. thanks again. Maybe I'm asking -what rights does an unfaithful lover have in a relationship- if any.

I hope this point clarifies the question.

 

[NoJo]

Some of the resposes basicly say that the person should not be forgiven- or at least the person who was cheated on should basicly cut their losses. I agree that this is probably the best course of action in most circumstances.

Being able to forgive is a sign of maturity.

People aren't perfect. They fuck up, make mistakes that hurt other people. Forget that, and you'll end up alone.

 

[NoJo]

Some people do, cara'dita

And I do disagree that betrayal is inevitable. Before my mother's death, my parents had years and years of happy faithful marriage, and betrayal never once reared it's ugly head.

I strive to emulate that example.

Don't bother. You're not them. Totally different experience, totally different person, totally different time.

What I mean is, don't live up to other people's standards. Live up to your own standards.

My parents had a great marriage too. But trying too hard to make my marriage as perfect as theirs almost destroyed mine!

 

[curious2c]

At some point one has to either forgive and take back the offending partner or walk. It isn't healthy to keep an anger or hate inside over a misdeed. It will eventually not only ruin the relationship, it will also ruin you too.

The heart can heal, it does take time. The amount of time is different for each person, each relationship. Sometimes that relationship doesn't last, sometimes it does.

What I do know is that when it happened to me I was devastated and so deeply hurt that...well heart pain can cause one to want to do some stupid things at times.

Like I said, it happened a long time ago and I have managed to not mention it at all for about twenty years. Still, in the back of my mind...I can remember that day clearly and perfectly. I do wish I could erase that memory, I truly do.

 

[Dirt Man]

It all comes down to treating others the same way that you would want to be treated under the same circumstances. To forgive is devine. But usually, for humans at least, forgetting is a whole other story. When God forgives, he also forgets the sin. To remember it would take away the forgiveness.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[raphy]

Don't bother. You're not them. Totally different experience, totally different person, totally different time.

What I mean is, don't live up to other people's standards. Live up to your own standards.

My parents had a great marriage too. But trying too hard to make my marriage as perfect as theirs almost destroyed mine!

My parents instilled standards in me that are high - You pass on to your kids what you think is right - That's what they thought was right.

I've already had one failed marriage. I don't think you fully understand what I mean, Joe. I don't believe in working too hard at a relationship. It should work, or it shouldn't. Simple as that. If you have to work hard at it, it's probably not the right thing to be doing anyway.

For as far back as I can remember, my parents never fought. Never argued, never had those screaming matches that I had in my first marriage. I'm not saying that they didn't disagree - Everyone disagrees - But, they sure never screamed at each other.

I think, if you asked my dad whether he thought it was hard work having a fantastic marriage to my mother, he'd tell you no - He didn't have to work at it, and every day was enjoyable and happy. That's not working at a marriage, that's finding the one person that you don't have to work with to make it work.

Whisper feels the same way about relationships that I do. We've talked at great length about this sort of thing.

My first marriage taught me a lot about myself - Not about how to make a marriage work, but how to pick the partner that's right, so you both won't have to work at the relationship.

I think the fact that we both feel the same way, and that we're together (with both of us feeling the way about 'working' at relationships) shows fantastic promise for the future.

I'm sorry Joe, but I just felt vaguely insulted that you took it as inevitable that betrayal would happen in all long-term relationships, when I know for a fact that it doesn't. Your assertation is untrue, sir.

 

[Mhari]

I guess I'm just wondering if it seems reasonable to take the person back but not forgive them.

Again- I'm not asking 'should they be taken back' that part is already decided. thanks again. Maybe I'm asking -what rights does an unfaithful lover have in a relationship- if any.

I guess that's my point, really, though. If the person can't do the forgiving part, what the hell are they doing getting back together with the betrayer? Sadist? Masochist? Little of both?

If you do get back together with someone who's cheated on you, you damned well better be able to forgive and forget, or else it's just going to turn into a living hell. The unfaithful lover who has been taken back should have all the same "rights" in a relationship as anyone else. If you can't give them that, *don't bloody well take them back*! Take them back, sure, but don't make them pay. That's just fucked up.

I know I can't do this with my ex. Of course, there are an awful lot of things I'm pissed at him about beyond the cheating. I suppose I actually can (and have) forgive, it's the forgetting bit I have trouble with. If he and I were (god forbid) ever to find ourselves in a relationship again, I would always wonder, always be pretty much in a state of constant pissed-off-ness, which wouldn't be good for either of us. This is just one of the reasons I keep fending off his "please come back to me!" pleas. *mutters*

I really must ask: What is this person thinking? Why take back someone if you can't let what happened go? I confess that I just don't understand that at all. Enlighten me, please!

 

[Mhari]

I left out a set of questions that I'm also curious about:

What about the person being taken back? Why is he/she willing to enter into a relationship where he knows he'll pay for his crime? (Using just "he" from now on to make it simple.) Or does he perhaps not realize this is the case?

As I don't understand taking someone back when you're gonna make him pay, I also don't understand being taken back when you know going to be made to pay.

"Thanks, but I think I'll move on now" is what I think I'd say...

 

[NoJo]

My parents instilled standards in me that are high - You pass on to your kids what you think is right - That's what they thought was right.

I've already had one failed marriage. I don't think you fully understand what I mean, Joe. I don't believe in working too hard at a relationship. It should work, or it shouldn't. Simple as that. If you have to work hard at it, it's probably not the right thing to be doing anyway.

For as far back as I can remember, my parents never fought. Never argued, never had those screaming matches that I had in my first marriage. I'm not saying that they didn't disagree - Everyone disagrees - But, they sure never screamed at each other.

I think, if you asked my dad whether he thought it was hard work having a fantastic marriage to my mother, he'd tell you no - He didn't have to work at it, and every day was enjoyable and happy. That's not working at a marriage, that's finding the one person that you don't have to work with to make it work.

Whisper feels the same way about relationships that I do. We've talked at great length about this sort of thing.

My first marriage taught me a lot about myself - Not about how to make a marriage work, but how to pick the partner that's right, so you both won't have to work at the relationship.

I think the fact that we both feel the same way, and that we're together (with both of us feeling the way about 'working' at relationships) shows fantastic promise for the future.

I'm sorry Joe, but I just felt vaguely insulted that you took it as inevitable that betrayal would happen in all long-term relationships, when I know for a fact that it doesn't. Your assertation is untrue, sir.

I'm not sure why you took what I said as an insult: I wasn't making a comment about you or your relationships, about which I know nothing. I just meant that it's a mistake to live up to other people's standards.

I suppose I was being provocative about inevitable betrayal: betrayal is a very strong word. No, the "ultimate" betrayal in a mongamous relationship, which I guess is having sex with someone else, doesn't have to occur. I doubt if my current relationship could survive a betrayal like that -- at least right now... But in five, ten years, who knows? Maybe it could survive that.

What I guess I meant, is that you should always expect that your partner will let you down, sooner or later. Maybe she will change her mind about having a kid, when you want one; maybe she'll quit her job just when you thought you'd agreed to share the burden of income. Maybe she'll decide she doesn't want to live together! These aren't so much betrayals as breaches of contract -- maybe an unwritten contract, an understanding you thought you had.

My parents loved each other, and fought all the time! Their marriage lasted until my father died, over 55 years. They were incredibly happy together.

I think the amount of effort in keeping a relationship going depends on the people involved. I'm a volatile, moody person. I'm "high maintenance." So's my partner. There's no way I can expect an effortless relationship with anyone!

A relationship that requires work can be a healthy, happy one. But sure, you can get tired.

 

[raphy]

Maybe insulted is the wrong word.. I just felt like you were saying "Bad stuff happened to me in my relationship, and you should expect it to happen to you, and if you don't, then you're foolish and naive"

I'm neither foolish, nor naive, and I don't expect bad stuff to happen in this relationship. If I did, I wouldn't be in it, especially having learnt the lessons of my previous marriage.

I guess I interpreted you as saying "Betrayal happens in all relationships, so it's just a matter of time before you cheat on whisper or whisper cheats on you." - Which obviously, yes, I am faintly insulted by. However, I see now that that's not what you meant. I misunderstood, and I apologize.

That said - I do certainly agree with you that at some point in time your partner will let you down - But that's human nature, and isn't necessarily malicious on their part. Two people who are different are going to have disagreements sometimes, however minor - And it's not something that relationships have a monopoly on. Even the best of friendships has that.

I also don't feel that it counts as a betrayal. If there's doubt about something in a relationship, you should talk about it - Whisper and I discuss literally *everything*. Unless she's been lying to me, I'm 100% certain on how she feels about kids, about how to raise them, where we're going to live, what sort of house, about dividing up household chores, etc etc.. And I don't think she's been lying to me

I'm the sort of guy who doesn't like surprises, especially nasty ones. I see life as a complex chess game where I have to predict 5 moves ahead, and all the possible outcomes of those 5 moves. And then I talk to whisper about them, and we discuss all the eventualities that she or I can come up with, and our reactions to those eventualities. I don't think she's ever going to 'betray' an unspoken understanding we have, or 'let me down', because none of our understandings are unspoken, and the ones we haven't talked about yet are ones which we don't feel we need to worry about yet.

I'm very much the opposite to you - I'm very low-maintenance when it comes to relationships. I ask for little and expect even less. Having an effortless relationship with me (I hope) is easy, because there's so few (relationship-orientated) things that I get worked up about.

Que sera, sera. What will be, will be.

 

[NoJo]

Ok, Raphy. I didn't know about raphy+whisper. I've been off the boards for a while!

 

[raphy]

Ok, Raphy. I didn't know about raphy+whisper. I've been off the boards for a while!

*grins* .. it's no secret, although it was for a while. I moved to Vermont from the UK to be with her. So far, things are working out magnificently. We're very much in love and as far as we can tell right now, seem to be 100% compatible.

 

[NoJo]

*grins* .. it's no secret, although it was for a while. I moved to Vermont from the UK to be with her. So far, things are working out magnificently. We're very much in love and as far as we can tell right now, seem to be 100% compatible.

That is v. cool indeed!

 

[raphy]

Again- I'm not asking 'should they be taken back' that part is already decided. thanks again. Maybe I'm asking -what rights does an unfaithful lover have in a relationship- if any.

I hope this point clarifies the question.

Sorry, SnP - I understand your question a little better now

I would say that it's a two-way street here.

The person who was cheated shouldn't take the other person back, unless they were truly ready to forgive (and forget as much as is humanly possible)

The person who did the cheating needs to be able to accept that even though they're forgiven, that trust doesn't immediately appear and they'd need to be on extra-good behaviour. For how long, though, depends on the person who was cheated, and how bad the hurt was.

I think that length of time would be different for everybody

 

[Guest]

The last time my love was betrayed I sought solace from an older woman, my French ballet teacher. She taught me much more than ballet steps. Two things I recall.

One. I’ll paraphrase her. “Your husband is a good looking guy, intellectual, a poet, etc. You love him so he’s very handsome, smarter, more creative and sensitive than any one else alive. I like him, but to me he’s just a man. Try to look at him as just another member of his species, eh?”

I’ve tried to do that ever since with men.

Two. She did not attend to my questions about betrayal and hurt, etc., or what I should do next, though she did comfort me in her French-mama way. She said, “It is common—the normale—for men to stray, it’s their nature. But—think of those men who do not. We may not know of them, but think of what it says for a man to keep his promise, to refuse himself! Ah, what a thing that must be.”

I explained that to my husband, asked him to think about what it might have meant—if only for himself—if he could have honored our marriage, honored me.

Perdita

 

[Guest]

As Sub Joe has already said: betrayal of a loved one comes in many forms. It does not neccesarily mean having actual sex with another. It can be feeling let down emotionally.

The "cheater" is usually seen as the villain of the piece, but why did they feel the need to seek the love (or just sex) of another? In relationships things are never cut and dried, black and white, or whatever.

But, what about the love that binds the couple in the first place? If that remains, and both parties are willing to accept and move on, things can work out.

I am not about to go into personal details on a public forum, but I guess what I'm saying is, you can't judge another until you've lived their life for a while.

Lou