Cheating and Perception

[SimonDoom]

If this is how you've experienced things, then it's valid as a description of your own personal experience. But it's no more than that. Without proof beyond personal experience, you cannot claim that what you've seen is universal. You're not the only one who's guilty of this fallacy in this forum. Everyone who posits universal statements based upon what they perceive other people doing, saying, writing, or reading makes the same basic mistake. It's extremely common here, but it's always a bit surprising to me. I would think this would be a space where people would be especially open to the extreme variety of human needs, desires, psychologies, etc.

 

[RIPAphrodite]

Got to remember individuality, most people don’t fit in nice and neat little boxes. So many people make big sweeping statements claiming to be fountains of knowledge when the truth of a matter such as this is inherently so much more complex. You can never speak for all people, only your perception of them based on your point of view. I never let a man tell me how my brain is wired, I’m my own bitch

 

[djrip]

If this is how you've experienced things, then it's valid as a description of your own personal experience. But it's no more than that. Without proof beyond personal experience, you cannot claim that what you've seen is universal. You're not the only one who's guilty of this fallacy in this forum. Everyone who posits universal statements based upon what they perceive other people doing, saying, writing, or reading makes the same basic mistake. It's extremely common here, but it's always a bit surprising to me. I would think this would be a space where people would be especially open to the extreme variety of human needs, desires, psychologies, etc.

I agree in general. But, while I'd have to reread the particular language in the essay to see about it specifically, I do feel that it is fairly common for someone to say something, not explicitly stating "in my opinion" at the beginning of every sentence, because they assume people will know they are stating their opinion, and then have reactions that assume they meant their statements to be universal. I've done this kind of thing, on like Facebook or whatever, and gotten back rebuttals like "well that's just, like, your opinion, man." And I would think, 'well yeah, of course it is. Opinions are all any of us have written here. Do we really need to specify that every time?'

Ok, off to recheck the wording in the essay.

Edit: okay, yeah, the stuff about anyone who has a sister or mother or wife does seem intended to be universal. Just stick an "in my experience" in there, lc.

 

[NoTalentHack]

If this is how you've experienced things, then it's valid as a description of your own personal experience. But it's no more than that. Without proof beyond personal experience, you cannot claim that what you've seen is universal. You're not the only one who's guilty of this fallacy in this forum. Everyone who posits universal statements based upon what they perceive other people doing, saying, writing, or reading makes the same basic mistake. It's extremely common here, but it's always a bit surprising to me. I would think this would be a space where people would be especially open to the extreme variety of human needs, desires, psychologies, etc.

This is pretty much what I was thinking when I read it. Beyond that, it extrapolates from a subset (women that are inclined to cheat/swap/give hall passes) to the whole set. And that makes sense, given his background; but at the same time, it's far from universal, and treating ti that way is demeaning to both men and women.

And there's another issue: if lc69hunter, as he says, has given his wife a pass, then that implies there are, at the very least, exceptions to the rule of the binary black/white male mind. And it's also pretty dismissive of therapists; are there really therapists whose typical response to "I've been cheating" is "go on girl?"

 

[NoTalentHack]

I agree in general. But, while I'd have to reread the particular language in the essay to see about it specifically, I do feel that it is fairly common for someone to say something, not explicitly stating "in my opinion" at the beginning of every sentence, because they assume people will know they are stating their opinion, and then have reactions that assume they meant their statements to be universal. I've done this kind of thing, on like Facebook or whatever, and gotten back rebuttals like "well that's just, like, your opinion, man." And I would think, 'well yeah, of course it is. Opinions are all any of us have written here. Do we really need to specify that every time?'

Ok, off to recheck the wording in the essay.

I think if someone is writing an essay, it's incumbent upon them to make that clarification. "I don't like ice cream" and "Ice cream sucks" are two very different statements, and if the goal is to enlighten, it's important to know which the speaker means; that's on them.

 

[djrip]

I think if someone is writing an essay, it's incumbent upon them to make that clarification. "I don't like ice cream" and "Ice cream sucks" are two very different statements, and if the goal is to enlighten, it's important to know which the speaker means; that's on them.

Yes, in general if a lot of people think I meant something I didn't, I probably said it wrong, you're right especially in an essay/article. Forum (and Facebook) posts can be more loosey-goosey I suppose.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

So, I read your essay.

Not only did you advertise yourself as a seasoned cheater, who apparently lives in a semi-open relationship with another seasoned cheater, you then present your observations of yet another set of seasoned cheaters as general behavior for women. And then, without even touching on the fact that compartmentalization is a defense mechanism, you go on to call everyone who doesn't share your relationship goals narrow minded men without balls.

Where is the "discussion" regarding how "men's and women's brains are wired"?

I'm sorry, but, risking to repeat myself... that was bold.

 

[lustychimera]

I just submitted a story for publication in the Reviews and Essays section.

It is a short discussion about how men's and women's brains are wired differently, and how that affects the cheating, and also the discussion and fallout when that cheating is discovered. It has to do the fact that women process things differently than men, in general.

Women's brains tend to categorize and compartmentalize things differently than men, who tend to be more binary in their thinking.

I will let you know when it is published

Oh boy....

Please update on the fallout.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

And it's also pretty dismissive of therapists; are there really therapists whose typical response to "I've been cheating" is "go on girl?"

Yes.

You won't find those as court approved marriage counselors (if marriage counselors in your country even have to be court approved), but I can confirm, out of professional experience, that those kinds of therapists indeed do exist.

Of course, this is only my own personal impression. But of the handful of therapists I had to work with over the years, I believe that most of those did not go into psychology because they had some form of innate need to help people. But rather because they wanted/needed to make sense of their own... experiences.
After that, they either simply went on to make use of their degree, or discovered a genuine interest in the profession. Either way, they all have to learn to leave their own personal believes outside the therapy room. Naturally, some are better at that than others. And, consequently, there is a certain subset that causes more harm than good.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I just submitted a story for publication in the Reviews and Essays section.

It is a short discussion about how men's and women's brains are wired differently, and how that affects the cheating, and also the discussion and fallout when that cheating is discovered. It has to do the fact that women process things differently than men, in general.

Women's brains tend to categorize and compartmentalize things differently than men, who tend to be more binary in their thinking.

I will let you know when it is published

Oh, hun. I read the essay. I really can’t agree, scientifically or experientially with much of what you state. In particular the idea that there is a major anatomical difference between men and women’s brains has no scientific basis at all.

It’s a nice summary of your experience maybe but doesn’t say much about the general human condition.

In summary: citation needed.

Em

 

[Kumquatqueen]

'You see my point.'
Nope?

People can compartmentalise all sorts of parts of their lives. I'm really not convinced that women do it more than men, though it's possible men and women cheat for somewhat different reasons thanks to how they've been socialised (which is different from innate reasons).

Not convinced men see things in binary fashion any more than women going good/bad, like us/not like us, etc.

 

[lc69hunter]

Oh boy....

Please update on the fallout.

Started out at close to 4.5. It is now down to 3.7, as the lw folks have found it

 

[lc69hunter]

So, I read your essay.

Not only did you advertise yourself as a seasoned cheater, who apparently lives in a semi-open relationship with another seasoned cheater, you then present your observations of yet another set of seasoned cheaters as general behavior for women. And then, without even touching on the fact that compartmentalization is a defense mechanism, you go on to call everyone who doesn't share your relationship goals narrow minded men without balls.

Where is the "discussion" regarding how "men's and women's brains are wired"?

I'm sorry, but, risking to repeat myself... that was bold.

The fact of the matter is that women now cheat at the same rate as men . Yes, there are predators and seducers out there, but most women cheat for the thrill just like men. Now those who are having systemic issues in their marriage are a different issue, and I want no part of that because that is where ugly divorces happen and there is fallout for everyone involved.
As I have said many times before, a random one-off by either party is no threat to a good strong marriage.

 

[NoTalentHack]

As I have said many times before, a random one-off by either party is no threat to a good strong marriage.

In your opinion. If infidelity is a hard line for either spouse, for any reason, then yes, it is. Maybe it shouldn't be, in your worldview or even objectively, but that doesn't make it so. A random one-off is absolutely a threat to a strong marriage IF the people involved have sworn fidelity to each other as part of their vows and one of them takes it seriously while the other doesn't as much. Can the cheated on spouse forgive? Sure. Are they morally wrong if they don't? No, not at all.

 

[lc69hunter]

In your opinion. If infidelity is a hard line for either spouse, for any reason, then yes, it is. Maybe it shouldn't be, in your worldview or even objectively, but that doesn't make it so. A random one-off is absolutely a threat to a strong marriage IF the people involved have sworn fidelity to each other as part of their vows and one of them takes it seriously while the other doesn't as much. Can the cheated on spouse forgive? Sure. Are they morally wrong if they don't? No, not at all.

I accept your point. Every relationship needs to find its own center

 

[lustychimera]

As I have said many times before, a random one-off by either party is no threat to a good strong marriage.

That's an good example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. You've made your claim and given yourself an easy out for any counterpoints, no matter how strong.

"No truly strong marriage would dissolve after an instance of infidelity."

"That's not true. My cousin's did. She said she couldn't get over how her husband broke her trust in the worst way."

"Nah, that just means they didn't have a truly strong marriage."

 

[muddie684]

Don't hold your breath

Believe in yourself, @Ic69hunter! You may not be able to give a comprehensive neurological assessment of both genders complete with medical jargon and journal citations, but general observations are where most worthwhile studies start. Besides, this is Literotica, not the NEJM. Your opinion matters.

 

[lc69hunter]

That's an good example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. You've made your claim and given yourself an easy out for any counterpoints, no matter how strong.

"No truly strong marriage would dissolve after an instance of infidelity."

"That's not true. My cousin's did. She said she couldn't get over how her husband broke her trust in the worst way."

"Nah, that just means they didn't have a truly strong marriage."

Every marriage has to set their own boundaries. My wife died of Alzheimer's in 2021. For the previous seven years I kept her at home as her primary caretaker. She kept telling me to go find a girlfriend, and even at the end, when she had a moment of clarity, she would ask if I had found a girlfriend yet. I could not do it. She was my sole focus in life at that time. Six months after her death, a long time married friend (I had never been with her before) dragged me to bed, she said, to make sure I remembered how to get in and out of the saddle. Don't know if she asked or told her husband, but thinking about it, if the situation were reversed, I think I would have actively encouraged her to go give him comfort and help bring him back to life. I know it helped me. That was my relationship. I know, not for everyone.

 

[lustychimera]

Every marriage has to set their own boundaries. My wife died of Alzheimer's in 2021. For the previous seven years I kept her at home as her primary caretaker. She kept telling to go find a girlfriend, and even at the end, when she had a moment of clarity, she would ask if I had found a girlfriend yet. I could not do it. She was my sole focus in life at that time. Six months after her death, a long time married friend (I had never been with her before) dragged me to bed, she said, to make sure I remembered how to get in and out of the saddle. Don't know if she asked or told her husband, but thinking about it, if the situation were reversed, I think I would have actively encouraged her to go give him comfort and help bring him back to life. I know it helped me. That was my relationship. I know, not for everyone.

I'm sorry to hear that. Brain diseases and trauma are the most heart-wrenching things to go through.

And I agree. To me, cheating's not about the sex. It's about betraying your partner's boundaries and trust, and everyone has different limits and communications. Everyone has different relationship needs for sure.

 

[Bramblethorn]

most women cheat for the thrill just like men. Now those who are having systemic issues in their marriage are a different issue

What are the percentages for those two categories?

 

[lc69hunter]

What are the percentages for those two categories?

I have no idea of the real numbers. However, in my experience, I have had far more experience with the short term fun ones. Maybe it is because I purposely back out of any relationship that she wants long term, as that is a warning sign to me of something missing in her marriage, and I do not want to be the man that breaks up a marriage, because I do respect the institution. Divorce destroys friendships, multiple families, and traumatizes kids, as the family structure is destroyed. Why would I, as a man, ever want to see that, or be one of the causes of it?

 

[Bramblethorn]

For both men and women there are a number of possible strategies that could work. I'll describe some possibilities first.

(Male) Full Monogamy - the man finds the best woman he can who will have him reasonably early after sexual maturity. They have children together. He commits all his resources to the family unit. By the time the woman is no longer fertile, they have some grandchildren and he commits all his resources to ensuring their successful growth.

(Female) Full Monogamy - the same strategy works essentially the same for women. Find the best man who is willing to commit all his resources to them and remain together for life.

(Male) Eternal Batchelor - the man wanders the Earth having sex with as many women he can. All his surplus resources are poured into the pursuit of intercourse and none into the resultant offspring.

(Female) Superhunk Strategy. - the woman finds the best genetic man she can and has sex with him neither expecting nor asking for any resources in return. She then raises the offspring either on her own or with the support of the biological family members. When it's time for the next child, if dude A is still around and still 'the best', if he's not them move onto dude B.

(Female) Cuckoo Strategy - the woman finds the man who is best willing and able to support her offspring. She then secretly has sex with the best genetic man she can and tricks her 'long-term mate' into raising the child as his own.

(Male) The Monogamy till Menopause - the man finds the best women he can and they have children together. Once the woman is no longer fertile (and any surviving children have reached, if not maturity, then at least an age where they can be abandoned and still have a reasonable shot at survival) he moves onto a woman who can bear him more children.

(Male) The Harem Strategy - the man has sufficient resources that he he can simultationously run the monogamy stragegy with more than one woman. (though note that time is a key resource for child-rearing and finite)
(Female) The Harem Strategy - even as part of a harem, the women is getting still more resources (and possibly good genes) than she might with a poorer male so sharing makes sense.
(Male) Not Quite Monogamy - the man finds the best women and raises children with her. If he has the option to have sex with another woman he takes it. He still devotes the majority of his resources to his primary mate, but may syphon off some to aid any secondary partners. There may come a point where it makes sense to abandon the primary mate for a secondary one.

(Male and Female) Trading Up Strategy - during any of the above strategies the person discovers a better mate or a better strategy and changes their mind about what they are doing.

While acknowledging a mention of "with the support of the biological family members", I still think this discussion neglects the importance of the broader social group. If you're living in a tribe where it's understood that people share what they gather and share responsibility for child-care, the options are very different to those in a society where everybody is expected to live in units of mum, dad, and 2.5 kids. I've raised a child who wasn't biologically mine, and I know plenty of others who do similar things, not because they're misled about the kid's parentage or because they're getting some big material benefit for doing so, but because the capacity for cooperation isn't restricted to close genetic relatives.

Even within the harem scenario (presumably a single M/multiple F harem and not the other way around), there's an assumption here that it's all about the man providing resources and how those are divvied up. In fact, in a family unit where you have one man and several women, it's quite possible that the support those women are getting from one another outweighs the support they're getting from the man.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I have no idea of the real numbers. However, in my experience, I have had far more experience with the short term fun ones. Maybe it is because I purposely back out of any relationship that she wants long term, as that is a warning sign to me of something missing in her marriage, and I do not want to be the man that breaks up a marriage, because I do respect the institution. Divorce destroys friendships, multiple families, and traumatizes kids, as the family structure is destroyed. Why would I, as a man, ever want to see that, or be one of the causes of it?

Okay, so "most women" here means most of the women that you, personally, have experienced? It came across as if you were making a much more general statement.

 

[lc69hunter]

Okay, so "most women" here means most of the women that you, personally, have experienced? It came across as if you were making a much more general statement.

A Cosmopolitan magazine survey and article seemed to indicate that 1) the percentage of women cheating was much higher than most other surveys said, and 2) the thrill, and the fact that they could, was far more prevalent than previously thought. In the interviews with some of these women, that seemed to be the case. However, I suspect that some of the numbers were higher due to some self-selection bias in the survey. It is an interesting take on modern marriage though.

In my marriages, neither of us ever had an affair, and though it sounds as if I was a bit of a male slut, she probably had more one-offs than I (opportunity), and to tell you the truth, we did more sharing than being apart.

 

[TheRedChamber]

The comparison of restraint when making decisions of eating, compared to the restraint of actions you know are morally wrong and would literally crush the heart and mind of a person you claim to hold dear if discovered is... relatively poor. Especially when options are involved. You're not destroying the confidence, trust and emotional stability of another person eating a huge bowl of ice cream... you might gain a few pounds but you can hit the gym for a week and correct that. A tainted relationship? The chances of repairing that are abysmal.
An unhappy or bored individual could just as easily break up with or divorce their partner, rather than cheat, and save both parties a long time of negative life experiences. In my experience, it's dramatic and moving to read, but not so entertaining to live through.

I suppose we'll all have to wait and read lc69hunter's submission to really weigh in beyond the basics of the topic. Again, I'm really curious of his personal experiences and thoughts regarding the topic.

Speaking as someone who is in their mid-forties and looking down the barrel of a lifetime of poor food choices - diabetes, cholestoral blocking specific arteries to the brain, fatty liver and generally feeling shitty. And if I do die early from any of these, my family is going to be affected by it. The most weight I ever lost was after and as a direct result of my first daughter being born and I kept it up for a few years, but quickly backslid.

So, I'd say they actually are pretty much the same. Decision that our inner Mr Spock has no problem in telling us are objectively wrong and yet we still need to resist doing anyway.