Category? Non-Con?

[Eviehere]

Content Warning, after an introductory question, there is a quote that may be considered to be non-con, proceed accordingly.

I have a story to submit and am wondering about category placement. The female protagonist is making a request, so strictly speaking when the male protagonist complies he is just doing as requested. But as I sample stories in different genre... Non-con seems to fit better than any other. Both experience and opinions are desired.

“Do you love me?” I asked.

“Of course I do,” he said, “you know that.”

“Well, this might be hard for you. But if you love me this is what you have to do. I'm not asking you to do this. I am telling you that if you love me you will do this... for me... to me.”

“What?” he said. He was somewhat stunned, and I paused to compose myself.

“What I need for you to do… right now and every day… or maybe every other day… for the next… Hell… I don't really fucking know… I'll tell you later… I mean... I'll tell you when to stop… What I need you to do, right now, is slap me hard, shove me to the floor... pull my clothes off roughly, pinch and twist my nipples… I mean, you really need to hurt me... but don't hit my belly.

“Slap my breasts, shove me down… you must be hard and uncaring… use your knee to force my legs apart and shove yourself into me… totally and completely without regard for my feelings. I don't want kindness… you must understand that I cannot have kindness… I cannot have sweetness in any form. Slap me… be brutal.”

“What I need is to have you very roughly taking me. Shoving yourself hard and uncaringly into me, getting yourself off ejaculating deeply into me and hopefully knocking me up… And I’m specifically saying that you don’t have to stand up for the aftermath if you don’t want to… When I say 'done' you can just leave, and never see me again... if you want… and you’d probably be wise to...”

“What, Evie, what do you mean?” he said.

“Come on,” I said, “it doesn't take a genius to figure this one out.”

He was confused.

“This is what I need,” I said, “what I really need. And I would prefer it to be from you…”

“Because?” he said.

“Oh,” I said, “I really don't think you actually want to know the answer to that question. I just want to know one thing, are you willing? Or do I need to look elsewhere for what I so desperately need right now?”

Evie

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sounds like BDSM to me.

 

[lovecraft68]

Sounds like BDSM to me.

Because they're getting a choice I'd agree, but-and this is where I get confused with NC and reluctance being lumped together when they're very different-if they're willing, but barely or take more than they bargained for reluctance could still be in play? But its not Non con.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Because they're getting a choice I'd agree, but-and this is where I get confused with NC and reluctance being lumped together when they're very different-if they're willing, but barely or take more than they bargained for reluctance could still be in play? But its not Non con.

Also, if he was uncomfortable with slapping her etc. and she pressured him into that, I would consider that to be reluctance on his part. But I'm not sure Laurel would categorise it that way.

 

[lovecraft68]

Also, if he was uncomfortable with slapping her etc. and she pressured him into that, I would consider that to be reluctance on his part. But I'm not sure Laurel would categorise it that way.

Right, its a gray area and mileage varies with the person, but it again brings up how different NC and R are to be sharing the same category....but if there is slapping and rough play I imagine that would qualify for what BDSM here for the most part over the last couple of years.

 

[SimonDoom]

Definitely sounds like a sadomasochistic arrangement, and therefore BDSM.

Noncon, I think, would be a poor fit because the person who wants this relationship is the woman, and the man, who is to be the masochist, is the possibly "reluctant" one.

If you switched the roles, then it would be an example of BDSM shading into reluctance/non-con, and then you might have an interesting dilemma. I don't see that here.

 

[RowanWrites]

+1 for BDSM. NonCon (well, CNC, as NonCon is not welcome in reality) is generally thought to be a subset of BDSM, so the lines are blurry and there may well be crossover. But that's true with mind control as well, and there are many other grey areas in any taxonomy. But, as with others, this *feels* more like straight-up BDSM than NC/R.

 

[Lifestyle66]

My latest story (published today) is "Lifestyle Ch. 11: Demons Past" with a somewhat similar case of the wife telling the husband to do anal with her (he's uncomfortable with the pain he's causing her, but she insists). The story explains why she suddenly has that need after such a long marriage.

I put that into Romance to see what reactions I might get from those readers, because the overall story is about the two of them supporting each other. (So far, only one rating - a 1.)

But yours might be better suited for BDSM.

 

[txblush]

+1 for BDSM. NonCon (well, CNC, as NonCon is not welcome in reality) is generally thought to be a subset of BDSM, so the lines are blurry and there may well be crossover. But that's true with mind control as well, and there are many other grey areas in any taxonomy. But, as with others, this *feels* more like straight-up BDSM than NC/R.

It feels like Consensual Non-consent or CNC to me as well, because Evie says exactly what she wants and doesn't want.

 

[Eviehere]

Not stated in the blurb is that they are boyfriend-girlfriend so a relationship exists but the promises made are implicit rather than explicit.

To me (and I have zero published stories):

For him there is a level of Reluctance.

But, if he agrees he is being incentivised not being coerced.

If she asks for it... It is not non-con, dub-con, or CNC.

It's certainly D2 (domination) of BDSM, but not B or D1 (discipline) or S1 (because she isn't really submitting, she is fighting and losing, but that is not clear in the blurb) or S2 (sadistic-- because if he goes along there is no intent) or M.

But BDSM (to me) seems more like play acting (like age play).

And "Rough Sex" is sorta a pariah (like actual non-con) because so many abusers simply say they are engaging in it.

 

[lovecraft68]

Not stated in the blurb is that they are boyfriend-girlfriend so a relationship exists but the promises made are implicit rather than explicit.

To me (and I have zero published stories):

For him there is a level of Reluctance.

But, if he agrees he is being incentivised not being coerced.

If she asks for it... It is not non-con, dub-con, or CNC.

It's certainly D2 (domination) of BDSM, but not B or D1 (discipline) or S1 (because she isn't really submitting, she is fighting and losing, but that is not clear in the blurb) or S2 (sadistic-- because if he goes along there is no intent) or M.

But BDSM (to me) seems more like play acting (like age play).

And "Rough Sex" is sorta a pariah (like actual non-con) because so many abusers simply say they are engaging in it.

If there is a relationship then BDSM seems to be the place to put it over other options, if there's a history than a form of trust and consent is established.

 

[lovecraft68]

+1 for BDSM. NonCon (well, CNC, as NonCon is not welcome in reality) is generally thought to be a subset of BDSM, so the lines are blurry and there may well be crossover. But that's true with mind control as well, and there are many other grey areas in any taxonomy. But, as with others, this *feels* more like straight-up BDSM than NC/R.

CNC-because of the key first 'C-word' is a subset of BDSM, Mind control is not, you can't give consent when being controlled by something so that is a subset of NC.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Another option, assuming that it isn’t a shortie, is to put it in Novels and Novellas with a suitable warning. Yes, it’s a dodge, but it avoids subsequent whinging from readers about it being in the wrong category.

 

[lovecraft68]

Another option, assuming that it isn’t a shortie, is to put it in Novels and Novellas with a suitable warning. Yes, it’s a dodge, but it avoids subsequent whinging from readers about it being in the wrong category.

Downside is very low readership.
Seeing that over time a lot of 'BDSM' content here is sketchy as far as whether it truly belongs there, I don't think there's be a lot of backlash on this one.

 

[tenyari]

I really don't understand the 'concept' of the way the term 'non-con' applies on this site if the site has a rule against rape-fiction.

Because you either have or do not have consent, and when you don't have consent - that is always rape.

BDSM doesn't blur the line, at all. No matter how rough, a BDSM or D/s relationship is either based on consent, or it's not a BDSM or D/s relationship, it's just rape.

Here we have a 'take me by force without asking' - but it's the person wanting to be taken who asks for that relationship to start, and sets out a term that it will end when the person says it will end. In other words: there is full consent.

 

[Agiel]

Content Warning, after an introductory question, there is a quote that may be considered to be non-con, proceed accordingly.

I have a story to submit and am wondering about category placement. The female protagonist is making a request, so strictly speaking when the male protagonist complies he is just doing as requested. But as I sample stories in different genre... Non-con seems to fit better than any other. Both experience and opinions are desired.

“Do you love me?” I asked.

“Of course I do,” he said, “you know that.”

“Well, this might be hard for you. But if you love me this is what you have to do. I'm not asking you to do this. I am telling you that if you love me you will do this... for me... to me.”

“What?” he said. He was somewhat stunned, and I paused to compose myself.

“What I need for you to do… right now and every day… or maybe every other day… for the next… Hell… I don't really fucking know… I'll tell you later… I mean... I'll tell you when to stop… What I need you to do, right now, is slap me hard, shove me to the floor... pull my clothes off roughly, pinch and twist my nipples… I mean, you really need to hurt me... but don't hit my belly.

“Slap my breasts, shove me down… you must be hard and uncaring… use your knee to force my legs apart and shove yourself into me… totally and completely without regard for my feelings. I don't want kindness… you must understand that I cannot have kindness… I cannot have sweetness in any form. Slap me… be brutal.”

“What I need is to have you very roughly taking me. Shoving yourself hard and uncaringly into me, getting yourself off ejaculating deeply into me and hopefully knocking me up… And I’m specifically saying that you don’t have to stand up for the aftermath if you don’t want to… When I say 'done' you can just leave, and never see me again... if you want… and you’d probably be wise to...”

“What, Evie, what do you mean?” he said.

“Come on,” I said, “it doesn't take a genius to figure this one out.”

He was confused.

“This is what I need,” I said, “what I really need. And I would prefer it to be from you…”

“Because?” he said.

“Oh,” I said, “I really don't think you actually want to know the answer to that question. I just want to know one thing, are you willing? Or do I need to look elsewhere for what I so desperately need right now?”

Evie

Erotic Couplings.

 

[RowanWrites]

CNC-because of the key first 'C-word' is a subset of BDSM, Mind control is not, you can't give consent when being controlled by something so that is a subset of NC.

In "real life" -- hypnotism is only a superficial restructuring of cognitive space. The theory is, you can't make someone do something they are deeply opposed to. There is a lot of nuance to that theory, and space for bad actors to do bad things, but the grey area is between hypnotism and deep manipulation -- it's not a magic wand to make people act out of consent.

And hypnotism/trance play is very much a part of BDSM, at least in my local circles.

I would call it a subset of power exchange, which is a pretty commonly accepted dimension of BDSM.

 

[Eviehere]

In "real life" -- hypnotism is only a superficial restructuring of cognitive space. The theory is, you can't make someone do something they are deeply opposed to. There is a lot of nuance to that theory, and space for bad actors to do bad things, but the grey area is between hypnotism and deep manipulation -- it's not a magic wand to make people act out of consent.

And hypnotism/trance play is very much a part of BDSM, at least in my local circles.

I would call it a subset of power exchange, which is a pretty commonly accepted dimension of BDSM.

I might just be repeating what you said but the people I have known or know about who underwent "real life hypnosis" such as is given to help lose weight or stop smoking basically just had a subconscious idea planted and nurtured in the hopes (usually unsuccessful ones) that they would supplant a subconscious desire to eat or smoke.

We have played games with this-- but it is all play acting. I have seen no evidence that "real life hypnosis" is able to overcome any persons will.

 

[Auden James]

I think the categorization depends on the narrative angle your story takes: is it mostly concerned with the male character's reluctance to comply with the female character's wishes, or is it rather concerned with the dynamics of a kind of twisted or "faux" D/s relationship where the nominally submissive partner "incentivizes" the factually submissive partner into acting like a nominally dominant one? Since you're female character seems to be a first-person narrator, I'd strongly suspect that it's the second angle and because of that it should go into BDSM, not NonConsent/Reluctance; Erotic Couplings could be a viable alternative, but then I'd advice you to note at the beginning that the reader will have to digest some scenes of rough sex, everything being consensual at all times though.

I might add, though you didn't ask, that, frankly, I find the apparent premise of your story rather questionable, if not downright silly. I mean, already the dialog in the snippet you provided above strikes me as completely unnatural and unreal. Besides that, you make several POV errors already in just this little snippet, e.g., when your female first-person narrator suddenly informs the reader that the male character "was confused," which she simply cannot know since she isn't able to check his inner state, the best she could do is guess about it, so that at the most she could instead inform the reader that the male character seemed to be confused (or something similar). Going by these evident faults, I'd strongly recommend you to first find an editor for your story before eventually publishing it!

 

[Bramblethorn]

I really don't understand the 'concept' of the way the term 'non-con' applies on this site if the site has a rule against rape-fiction.

It doesn't. I've seen a couple of people claiming lately that the NC/Reluc category is restricted to CNC, but I'm not sure where they're getting this claim from. I can't see anything on the site documentation to support that, and it definitely doesn't fit with what actually gets posted. Plenty of stories in NC/Reluc don't have any kind of consent.

There are restrictions on what kind of non-con can be posted here but they don't amount to "must be CNC".

Because you either have or do not have consent, and when you don't have consent - that is always rape.

Agreed.

From what I've seen, CNC stories can end up in either category here. In particular, stories which appear to be rape but then have a twist ending revealing it was actually CNC sometimes end up in NC/Reluc. That seems reasonable; there's two levels of stories here, a NC story inside a BDSM story, and if the NC story gets more focus than the "oh it was actually CNC" ending, it might make sense to put it in NC.

 

[Auden James]

From what I've seen, CNC stories can end up in either category here. In particular, stories which appear to be rape but then have a twist ending revealing it was actually CNC sometimes end up in NC/Reluc. That seems reasonable. . . .

I don't think there's anything "reasonable" about that! If it's CNC it's not NC by definition, hence such a story has no place in a NonConsent category. The only reasonable way I see right now for a CNC story to end up in LIT's NonConsent/Reluctance category is for said story's narrative angle to be mostly concerned with the reluctance of one of the parties involved to go through with the "rape play" or whatever it might be called. If it's simply a CNC story with a final twist that it was all just play-acting, I'd consider it a particularly bad example of disrespecting one's readers (in the same vein as the preposterous ". . . and it was all just a dream" ending)!

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't think there's anything "reasonable" about that! If it's CNC it's not NC by definition, hence such a story has no place in a NonConsent category. The only reasonable way I see right now for a CNC story to end up in LIT's NonConsent/Reluctance category is for said story's narrative angle to be mostly concerned with the reluctance of one of the parties involved to go through with the "rape play" or whatever it might be called. If it's simply a CNC story with a final twist that it was all just play-acting, I'd consider it a particularly bad example of disrespecting one's readers (in the same vein as the preposterous ". . . and it was all just a dream" ending)!

FWIW, I agree that it's a clichéd, badly overused ending, but that's another discussion entirely.

"Story-within-a-story" is a very common device in fiction. You have a first-level story, in which somebody happens to be telling a story of their own, and then you have a second-level story which is the story that they're telling. (And very often there might be multiple second-level stories, and some of those might contain third-level stories et cetera et cetera).

But not all story-in-a-story tales have the same dynamic. Sometimes the meat of the fiction is in the first-layer narrative, and the second-layer story is just a minor interlude to help set up something relevant to the first layer. OTOH, quite often the first layer is mostly a framing device and the heart of the story is the second layer; "The Princess Bride" is a well-known example of the latter. (Or perhaps two examples - the book and the film have quite different framing devices, but the same second-layer story about princesses, brides, pirates, etc. etc.)

When we need to pigeonhole those stories into a genre, it doesn't always make sense to let the first layer dictate that classification. It'd be absurd to classify TPB merely on "a grandfather reads to his sick grandchild", or 1001 Nights as "a newly-married queen persuades her husband not to execute her". When the second layer has more meat in it than the first layer, it's much more sensible to focus on what's in that second layer.

CNC can go either way. I have written stories here that contained CNC scenes in the context of a broader story, and I categorised according to the broader story. But some CNC stories on this site are pretty clearly cases where the author set out to tell a rape story, and then put it in a thin "wrapper" of CNC for one reason or another.

For the latter, I think it makes sense to categorise them as NC. Even if the story begins and ends with a couple of paragraphs establishing it as a fantasy role-play between two consenting adults, if there are thousands of words in between focussed solely on the nonconsent story, then it's a nonconsent story with a framing device.

 

[RejectReality]

She's not just consenting. She's delivering an ultimatum. "Give me this, or I'll have to get it from somewhere else." Assuming he's fine with it, ( or finds that he does enjoy it ) and complies with the boundaries/stop order she says she'll eventually deliver, it's all play. That could be BDSM, or just rough sex in Erotic Couplings. The more structured the power dynamics are between them, the more I'd lean toward BDSM.

There's two main possibilities for it taking a non-con turn in my mind. First is the "she created a monster" scenario where she puts down that boundary and he steps straight over it. The second is if he's emotionally traumatized by the whole thing and only doing it because he doesn't want to lose the relationship or something. Her need to deliver an ultimatum from the outset suggests it's not something she feels he's necessarily going to be comfortable with.

I'm assuming there's some additional context in that why she says he doesn't want to know, which you don't want to spoil. Absent that, the snippet here has me screaming "Run, mothafuckka! Run!" through the screen at him. She's throwing red flags like confetti at a New Year's party.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

Side question, because I’ve got a few stories in the early stages with significant CNC content — does Laurel ever sort CNC stories out of BDSM and into NC?

 

[Eviehere]

I think the categorization depends on the narrative angle your story takes: is it mostly concerned with the male character's reluctance to comply with the female character's wishes, or is it rather concerned with the dynamics of a kind of twisted or "faux" D/s relationship where the nominally submissive partner "incentivizes" the factually submissive partner into acting like a nominally dominant one?

I think you hit the heart of my internal dilemma.

The blurb was short (because this site unlike some others doesn't allow the whole story to be posted on the board). But the male and female protagonists are boyfriend-girlfriend. He is not submissive, but he is not a sadist. Prior to a major event they had a fairly vanilla sexual relationship, but something happened to her and now she feels the need to regain the autonomy she lost in that event.

I might add, though you didn't ask, that, frankly, I find the apparent premise of your story rather questionable, if not downright silly. I mean, already the dialog in the snippet you provided above strikes me as completely unnatural and unreal.

I guess I don't understand (but I want to understand) your point here.

The female protagonist is not submissive. She is the kind of girl who does not expect to be pampered, or quit when things get hard. When she takes a hard body check playing hockey she gets back up and gives her opponent a harder one next time.

She doesn't want a wimp or a thief as a sexual partner. She is not afraid to express her needs or desires and request that they be met. She isn't afraid of rough play or rough talk, and she can be brutally frank when having discussions with her good friends, male or female. She does not own a copy of Emily Post.

You make several POV errors already in just this little snippet, e.g., when your female first-person narrator suddenly informs the reader that the male character "was confused," which she simply cannot know since she isn't able to check his inner state, the best she could do is guess about it, so that at the most she could instead inform the reader that the male character seemed to be confused (or something similar). Going by these evident faults, I'd strongly recommend you to first find an editor for your story before eventually publishing it!

I'm barely old enough to be here at this site, but I can tell when my close friends are confused by something I say.

(Which is most of the time--- JOKE.)

Because I pay attention to verbal cues while talking. Studies suggest that women are better than this than men-- but I have taught my brother and close male friends that it is incredibly valuable to pay attention to body language as you talk to people. Words often lie-- but body language often gives those lies away as well as alerting you to times when you are receiving a truthful, but redacted or edited, account.

That said, I'm certain I could do better and say, "I could read the confusion in his facial expression." Or something similar.

Thank you for your input.