Category Changes Happened

[SimonDoom]

If there's incest, is there also outcest? Is that where you discover your gay side through sex with a sibling? Or is incest where you keep it secret, and outcest is where you announce it to the world?

I've wondered this too. I've always assumed "taboo" in this context clarifies that the category includes "incest adjacent" stories that some might not believe are true incest. There's no reason for it to include other taboos, which are too different and will only confuse readers more.

 

[RejectReality]

I was about to say it was an epic fail in categorizing mine, because when this topic first appeared and I looked, mine was on the Trans side despite plainly being a crossdressing story and having that as a tag. I looked again before I posted, and it's now in Crossdressing, so it may have still been working its way through the processing queue or something. Regardless, it's on the correct half of the split now.

As to why... Maybe this was a test run to see if splitting other, much larger categories was viable? I can't imagine there was some great outcry from anyone about needing a bright line between T & CD. It could be a good test for a place where it might be more useful, though. If that's the case, and this doesn't produce too much horror, my next thought would be to split Incest.

( Maybe another small step first of splitting E&V, though I suspect the V side would be pretty anemic absent the dominant E side if you did that )

Move all the step, in-law, etc. stuff to its own taboo category. You make some of the blood-only purists in Incest happy, and create a much broader Taboo category that could pick up some of those "where do I put this? I guess it's EC. *shrug*" stories. Absent the blood-only purists who would undoubtedly remain in incest, it would open taboo up to more than just pseudo-incest.

There's lots of taboo that's a little outside the age-gap that will work in Mature, for example. Other power-dynamics like boss/employee. Maybe seducing a clergyman. It could end up being a useful and vibrant category that can highlight some stories that would have otherwise ended up in the bargain bin of EC. So not just a test on a much larger category, but one that could produce value as well.

Then assuming that doesn't go horribly awry, it's time to slay the beast—Loving Wives. That's where genuine problems are coming from, and where bright lines could dramatically reduce one of the biggest complaints about Lit, which is the trolls.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

I've wondered this too. I've always assumed "taboo" in this context clarifies that the category includes "incest adjacent" stories that some might not believe are true incest. There's no reason for it to include other taboos, which are too different and will only confuse readers more.

My Pretties Pairings Parties are like that.

Parents trade daughters at random. Nothing direct parent/offspring, but lots of seeing and knowledge.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

As to why... Maybe this was a test run to see if splitting other, much larger categories was viable? I can't imagine there was some great outcry from anyone about needing a bright line between T & CD

Not sure about outcry as such, but there is definitely CD that is Fetish only and nothing even remotely trans. Husband plays dressup for wife, maybe costume parties ...


Now that they split it, I may rework a 'wedding' gender-bender story from years ago.

 

[Voboy]

There's lots of taboo that's a little outside the age-gap that will work in Mature, for example. Other power-dynamics like boss/employee. Maybe seducing a clergyman. It could end up being a useful and vibrant category that can highlight some stories that would have otherwise ended up in the bargain bin of EC. So not just a test on a much larger category, but one that could produce value as well.

I’ve written many age-gap stories, and it’s never once occurred to me to put them in Taboo. They’ve always gone in Mature, and been received well enough.

Which just goes to reinforce the notion that we won’t ever all look at the categories the same way.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I’ve written many age-gap stories, and it’s never once occurred to me to put them in Taboo. They’ve always gone in Mature, and been received well enough.

What about a 19 year old dating a 33 year old? 33 isn't old enough for mature but it's still taboo. Such a story would get destroyed in Taboo/Incest and completely lost in EC after 48 hours.

 

[Voboy]

What about a 19 year old dating a 33 year old? 33 isn't old enough for mature but it's still taboo. Such a story would get destroyed in Taboo/Incest and completely lost in EC after 48 hours.

Yes. I've done precisely that kind of gap, in Mature, with success.

33 is definitely old enough for "mature," by comparison with a 19-year-old.

Agreed on EC; I don't think it's the right place for a story where the age gap is the main plot driver. That's one of the things Mature is for. That story would vanish in EC.

 

[SimonDoom]

What about a 19 year old dating a 33 year old? 33 isn't old enough for mature but it's still taboo. Such a story would get destroyed in Taboo/Incest and completely lost in EC after 48 hours.

I agree with Voboy. Mature is a big tent category. The actual age is less important than the way the story emphasizes the gap.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Families get spread out sometimes. A 20 year old could easily have a 33 year old sibling, cousin or aunt/uncle.

No reason for it not to fit in I/T.

18 to 33 is only 15 years and while you couldn't go into too much detail, millions of women had kids at 15, so the young Mom thing works.

 

[Voboy]

Families get spread out sometimes. A 20 year old could easily have a 33 year old sibling, cousin or aunt/uncle.

No reason for it not to fit in I/T.

18 to 33 is only 15 years and while you couldn't go into too much detail, millions of women had kids at 15, so the young Mom thing works.

Well, sure. If that's the part of the relationship you want to emphasize. And if I did, then I/T is where I might put it.

But I just about never mention anything like that. The stuff I enjoy writing is about imbalances: of age, of power, of authority, of experience. Mature readers, in my experience, are very accepting of that sort of thing.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I was completely thrown off. I got used to where I moved my mouse to click on the category links, for a moment I thought they removed some of these categories, it took me a moment to see how they reordered them. It will take some getting used to.

I did the same thing. I drop from Bdsm to fetish to glance over the offers. It took me a bit to realize what happened. I didn't read the crossdress/ trans category much.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I've always been curious about why the shitty incels would move just because a category changed its name, though.

I've been curious why you are so upset about the readership there. Calling them "shitty incels". Especially since you don't post stories in that category. I guess you read the cuckold stories and don't like to see them get a low score.

 

[Voboy]

I've been curious why you are so upset about the readership there. Calling them "shitty incels". Especially since you don't post stories in that category. I guess you read the cuckold stories and don't like to see them get a low score.

If you're curious, just ask.

I don't need to shoot my toe off to know it would damn well hurt, nor do I need to post in any given category to have an opinion about it. FWIW, I have indeed posted there. So kindly stop putting words into my mouth or trying to infer my motives.

I said "shitty incels" because I think any incel who would seek out a category in which to submit 1* votes as bombs is, well, shitty.

 

[Gamblnluck]

My point is why are they INCELS? How about guys like me. Over 70 yet with the presence of mind to say, no way would I let my spouse cheat. The idea hits me hard. Am I one of your incels?

 

[Voboy]

My point is why are they INCELS? How about guys like me. Over 70 yet with the presence of mind to say, no way would I let my spouse cheat. The idea hits me hard. Am I one of your incels?

...I was replying to another poster who used that term... Do you know what it means? It does not seem to apply to you at all.

Take it up with the guy I was replying to. I have no opinion of your sex life.

 

[Gamblnluck]

...I was replying to another poster who used that term... Do you know what it means? It does not seem to apply to you at all.

Take it up with the guy I was replying to. I have no opinion of your sex life.

Yet you say it. You put all commenters in LW who hate the cuck mentality as Incels. Why? Because you read it here in the author forums. I'm guessing you don't even read the stories there.
You just repeat that it is a tough category where you have to conform to certain strict guidelines in order to succeed. But the readership are all all involuntary celibates (incels as you put it) Yet I'll bet you have no idea who the audience is. My own sex life at 70 is not what it was, but you seem to categorize me an probably thousands of readers in the same vein. Not sure what that is but I see it here on Author's hangout a lot. Incels, Idiots, Morons. Probably many more. Yet you do not even post stories to see how that audience reacts NOR WHY!

 

[Voboy]

Yet you say it. You put all commenters in LW who hate the cuck mentality as Incels. Why? Because you read it here in the author forums. I'm guessing you don't even read the stories there.
You just repeat that it is a tough category where you have to conform to certain strict guidelines in order to succeed. But the readership are all all involuntary celibates (incels as you put it) Yet I'll bet you have no idea who the audience is. My own sex life at 70 is not what it was, but you seem to categorize me an probably thousands of readers in the same vein. Not sure what that is but I see it here on Author's hangout a lot. Incels, Idiots, Morons. Probably many more. Yet you do not even post stories to see how that audience reacts NOR WHY!

You're picking a fight I don't want. I can't fathom why.

You have a pleasant evening.

 

[Lotus_Kitty]

I've always been curious about why the shitty incels would move just because a category changed its name, though.

LW would have to keep the same title, I imagine, but actually become Vengeful Husbands. Then those who merely want joyfully promiscuous wives (whom some might even think of as "loving," though evidently not the commenters) could decamp to a new category. Say, "Unfaithful Wives." So nobody has an excuse to whine.

Vixen/stag, swinger and poly stories wouldn’t fit in Loving Wives. None of that is being unfaithful. I’d argue consensual cuckold stories aren’t really infidelity either.

 

[Voboy]

Vixen/stag, swinger and poly stories wouldn’t fit in Loving Wives. None of that is being unfaithful. I’d argue consensual cuckold stories aren’t really infidelity either.

It's not me you need to convince.

When I came here decades ago as a reader, and then later when I became a writer, I took my concept of LW from Laurel's description: "Married extra-marital fun: swinging, sharing & more." So yes, according to the site, vixen/stag, swinger, and poly stories most assuredly DO fit in Loving Wives.

My impression is that a vocal group of readers never bothered with the "extramarital" part and instead focused on a very conservative definition of "loving," which authorizes nothing but a wife in a warm, close, companionate relationship with her husband. They read and comment accordingly.

I think that is the antithesis of where Laurel intended that category to go. I think her intention was infidelity. That the category has become a mess is, ultimately, the fault of the site owners. My contention is that if they split it into two different categories (one for the angry commenters who want "wives that love their husband," the other for those of us who want "wives with a lot of love to spread around"), there's no guarantee that those negative commenters will follow along and restrict themselves to their intended category... whether it's called "Unfaithful Wives" or "Wives Fucking People Who Aren't Their Husbands" or "Open Marriages" or anything else you choose.

For the sake of easier shorthand, another poster called such negative commenters "incels." Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but in following suit I apparently ruffled another member's feathers. So I'll hold off on further commentary, I think, lest I get more words put into my mouth than the many I've already given this topic.

 

[SimonDoom]

Vixen/stag, swinger and poly stories wouldn’t fit in Loving Wives. None of that is being unfaithful. I’d argue consensual cuckold stories aren’t really infidelity either.

But those are EXACTLY the kinds of stories for which the category originally was created, and there are still plenty of readers who choose that category looking for those stories.

The "anti-cuck" crowd are the interlopers, but they seem to have appropriated to themselves the authority to decide what belongs in the category and what doesn't.

 

[Voboy]

But those are EXACTLY the kinds of stories for which the category originally was created, and there are still plenty of readers who choose that category looking for those stories.

The "anti-cuck" crowd are the interlopers, but they seem to have appropriated to themselves the authority to decide what belongs in the category and what doesn't.

This. As usual, you were more concise than I was.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's not me you need to convince.

When I came here decades ago as a reader, and then later when I became a writer, I took my concept of LW from Laurel's description: "Married extra-marital fun: swinging, sharing & more." So yes, according to the site, vixen/stag, swinger, and poly stories most assuredly DO fit in Loving Wives.

My impression is that a vocal group of readers never bothered with the "extramarital" part and instead focused on a very conservative definition of "loving," which authorizes nothing but a wife in a warm, close, companionate relationship with her husband. They read and comment accordingly.

I think that is the antithesis of where Laurel intended that category to go. I think her intention was infidelity. That the category has become a mess is, ultimately, the fault of the site owners. My contention is that if they split it into two different categories (one for the angry commenters who want "wives that love their husband," the other for those of us who want "wives with a lot of love to spread around"), there's no guarantee that those negative commenters will follow along and restrict themselves to their intended category... whether it's called "Unfaithful Wives" or "Wives Fucking People Who Aren't Their Husbands" or "Open Marriages" or anything else you choose.

For the sake of easier shorthand, another poster called such negative commenters "incels." Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but in following suit I apparently ruffled another member's feathers. So I'll hold off on further commentary, I think, lest I get more words put into my mouth than the many I've already given this topic.

The logic of splitting this category into two seems obvious, but I think there are significant forces working against it.

One is that the site obviously is not eager to create new categories. I believe they think having fewer categories is a virtue. I suspect they have a variety of reasons for this, which most of us who want categories more fine-tuned to their tastes do not consider.

Another is that it would be a bear to do. It's a big category with a lot of stories in its backlog.

Another is that it might not work. The anti infidelity crowd might follow the stories to their new category and still down vote them. To some extent they do this already.

A fourth is the possibility of riling up the readers. This is what readers are used to. I'm sure Laurel is reluctant to do something that would upset long-established reader expectations.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Vixen/stag, swinger and poly stories wouldn’t fit in Loving Wives. None of that is being unfaithful. I’d argue consensual cuckold stories aren’t really infidelity either.

THAT is what LW is supposed to be!!!

That's why you see so many of those stories now in EC, E/V, Group and other places. I have one working though the cogs for EC.

 

[Voboy]

The logic of splitting this category into two seems obvious, but I think there are significant forces working against it.

One is that the site obviously is not eager to create new categories. I believe they think having fewer categories is a virtue. I suspect they have a variety of reasons for this, which most of us who want categories more fine-tuned to their tastes do not consider.

Another is that it would be a bear to do. It's a big category with a lot of stories in its backlog.

Another is that it might not work. The anti infidelity crowd might follow the stories to their new category and still down vote them. To some extent they do this already.

A fourth is the possibility of riling up the readers. This is what readers are used to. I'm sure Laurel is reluctant to do something that would upset long-established reader expectations.

Exactly.

And fortunately, other categories have readerships happy to accept infidelity. About 90% of my stories involve cheating, and only one of them's gone into LW. They've all done fairly well; very rarely do I get a comment like, "This really should go in Loving Wives!" So I'm not sure any change is really needed, anyway.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Exactly.

And fortunately, other categories have readerships happy to accept infidelity. About 90% of my stories involve cheating,

Mine are always consensual, open, shared, willing.