Castration arrests in U.S.

[Etoile]

There's a highly sensationalized article about the recent castration arrests here.

It seems to me that the government is interfering in the personal sex life of a gay poly triad. The men they brought to their home were castrated voluntarily. If elastrator bands had been used instead of surgery, would "practicing medicine without a license" be included in the charges? Or is it that they were practicing mental health medicine (ie, the treatment of gender dysphoria) without a license? It just all seems perfectly acceptable to me, but they were arrested.

Also, isn't that a CollarMe profile in the pictures?

See also discussion on Metafilter here, with more links and information.

 

[John Doe]

Regardless of whether or not it's voluntary, I think it's perfectly reasonable to regulate surgical procedures for everyone's safety. As sad and pathetic as it it is, we really do need to be protected from ourselves sometimes, especially considering the fact that so many people are doing a lot wild, stupid shit nowadays.

I'm curious to hear your reasoning behind the opinion that this behavior is acceptable. Not that I'm surprise, since you're obviously among the vast majority of people who accept or welcome social an cultural castration, an it would seem like only a small step to literal, physical castration.

I don't this is a gay poly triad, as numerous strangers came to these guys' house not to have a relationship, but for the express purpose of having thier testicles removed, which as the Columbia Univeristy psychiatrist said, is clearly a psychosis.

 

[Etoile]

I certainly agree surgical procedures should be regulated, and that people do sometimes need to be protected from themselves. I've seen a lot of weird shit people do to themselves in the name of body modification, but fortunately most of them are sensible about it. Despite precautions, though, a lot of body modification practices are considered surgical - which is why CatMan has to get his work done in secret.

Glossing over your attempt to put words in my mouth, I'll explain my reasoning why I think it's acceptable (when done in a sterile environment by people who know what they're doing). It's body modification, it's BDSM relationship dynamics, and it's consensual. The main mistake I see was using dirty instruments - the rest of it is medical play (and probably also edge play) which is practiced by many people. What made it "practicing medicine without a license" in this particular case? Again, I can only assume it has to do with the practice of mental health treatment on someone with body dysmorphic disorder or gender dysphoria. (The article is vague and at times quite wrong about this stuff - a vaginoplasty is a tightening surgery and has nothing to do with sexual reassignment.)

As for the gay poly triad comment: I got the "gay" from the big rainbow flag flying at their home, as well as the obvious fact that they are all men. The poly triad bit came from the article, which stated "Investigators said in court documents that the three men arrested are "sexual lovers and have a master-slave relationship." Also, the CollarMe profile (I think it's CollarMe) has evidence that they were in a relationship. They also had strangers coming over for testicle removal, but the three men were definitely a triad.

 

[John Doe]

I certainly agree surgical procedures should be regulated, and that people do sometimes need to be protected from themselves. I've seen a lot of weird shit people do to themselves in the name of body modification, but fortunately most of them are sensible about it. Despite precautions, though, a lot of body modification practices are considered surgical - which is why CatMan has to get his work done in secret.

Glossing over your attempt to put words in my mouth,

WTF are you talking about?

I'll explain my reasoning why I think it's acceptable (when done in a sterile environment by people who know what they're doing). It's body modification, it's BDSM relationship dynamics, and it's consensual. The main mistake I see was using dirty instruments - the rest of it is medical play (and probably also edge play) which is practiced by many people. What made it "practicing medicine without a license" in this particular case? Again, I can only assume it has to do with the practice of mental health treatment on someone with body dysmorphic disorder or gender dysphoria. (The article is vague and at times quite wrong about this stuff - a vaginoplasty is a tightening surgery and has nothing to do with sexual reassignment.)

Surgical procedures should not be performed by nonmedical personnel, period.

As for the gay poly triad comment: I got the "gay" from the big rainbow flag flying at their home, as well as the obvious fact that they are all men. The poly triad bit came from the article, which stated "Investigators said in court documents that the three men arrested are "sexual lovers and have a master-slave relationship." Also, the CollarMe profile (I think it's CollarMe) has evidence that they were in a relationship. They also had strangers coming over for testicle removal, but the three men were definitely a triad.

How does that legitimize what they're doing? By body modification I'll assume you're refering to mutiliation. How does consent or a relationship between the victim and the perpetrator make a difference? legally speaking it doesn't, or not by much.

 

[NemoAlia]

By body modification I'll assume you're refering to mutiliation.

You know, my mom cried when she took me (at age 10) to get my earlobes pierced. She thought it was mutilation then, she still winces when she sees me wearing earrings today.

Of course, I've gotten a tattoo and another hole in one of my ears since then -- she isn't thrilled about those either.

Mutilation is one of those words that doesn't mean the same thing to different people. I'm still a fan of the idea that making body modification more socially (and legally acceptable) will make it also more regulate-able in terms of medical education and safety practices.

I live in a state where selling tattoos is illegal. This means that if you do get a tattoo here, there is no state certification hanging on the wall in the tattoo parlor. Your tattoo artist may or may not have studied blood-borne contagions, etc. Most of the state's residents are calling for legalization simply so there will be a certification process.

Maybe if voluntary castration were legalized, the people who wanted to perform the procedure would be better educated and not use dirty tools, hm?

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

I certainly agree surgical procedures should be regulated, and that people do sometimes need to be protected from themselves. I've seen a lot of weird shit people do to themselves in the name of body modification, but fortunately most of them are sensible about it. Despite precautions, though, a lot of body modification practices are considered surgical - which is why CatMan has to get his work done in secret.

Glossing over your attempt to put words in my mouth, I'll explain my reasoning why I think it's acceptable (when done in a sterile environment by people who know what they're doing). It's body modification, it's BDSM relationship dynamics, and it's consensual. The main mistake I see was using dirty instruments - the rest of it is medical play (and probably also edge play) which is practiced by many people. What made it "practicing medicine without a license" in this particular case? Again, I can only assume it has to do with the practice of mental health treatment on someone with body dysmorphic disorder or gender dysphoria. (The article is vague and at times quite wrong about this stuff - a vaginoplasty is a tightening surgery and has nothing to do with sexual reassignment.)

As for the gay poly triad comment: I got the "gay" from the big rainbow flag flying at their home, as well as the obvious fact that they are all men. The poly triad bit came from the article, which stated "Investigators said in court documents that the three men arrested are "sexual lovers and have a master-slave relationship." Also, the CollarMe profile (I think it's CollarMe) has evidence that they were in a relationship. They also had strangers coming over for testicle removal, but the three men were definitely a triad.

Hey Etoile

I covered a bit of this case ....... there are some original documents I posted including the Collarme profile posted at

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=16891832&highlight=castration#post16891832

Posts # 980 - #985

Comments by Dan Savage

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=400995&page=43&pp=25&highlight=castration

Post # 1056

The only personal comment I will make on the topic is that the post by our own Shankara probably has held the most influence on me to date. What these men choose to take part in holds no 'real' contention in my possible life choices. So it comes down to a matter of legality, social acceptance and finally ethics in regards to perhaps protecting the vulnerable .

Anyway Shanks expression on the topic is infinately more relevant than any discourse or opinion I might have so...........

Post by Shankara

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=400995&page=43&pp=25&highlight=castration

Post # 1059

@}-}rebecca-----

 

[Etoile]

One man's trash is another man's treasure; one man's mutilation is another man's body modification.

Just in case anybody wants to see some of the weird shit people will do to their genitals (and a few other body parts), here are some examples from ModBlog, which is part of the well-known BMEzine website:

• puts his dick in a tube with some wasps
• this fellow cut off his arm (or had someone do it)
• I honestly don't know what's going on here (I think it's a female)
• speaking of cutting out testicles
• trans-scrotal piercing using a mayo jar as jewelry
• saline injection into cock and balls (it's temporary; the body eventually absorbs the saline)
• bye bye toe

But damn, I can't find the penectomy picture I wanted to. I've put out an APB for it and I think I'll get a response - I'll share if/when I do.

 

[Etoile]

Comments by Dan Savage

Thanks for sharing all of that! I find Dan Savage's comments especially interesting. I occasionally agree with him, but not always; in this case I don't. He's making a blanket statement that castration is never SSC, and I disagree with that. Yes, the way these guys practiced it - like he says, they were creepy non-medical professionals - was not safe, but that doesn't mean it wasn't consensual and didn't fall under the umbrella of wacky BDSM or wacky body modification.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

One man's trash is another man's treasure; one man's mutilation is another man's body modification.

Just in case anybody wants to see some of the weird shit people will do to their genitals (and a few other body parts), here are some examples from ModBlog, which is part of the well-known BMEzine website:

• puts his dick in a tube with some wasps
• this fellow cut off his arm (or had someone do it)
• I honestly don't know what's going on here (I think it's a female)
• speaking of cutting out testicles
• trans-scrotal piercing using a mayo jar as jewelry
• saline injection into cock and balls (it's temporary; the body eventually absorbs the saline)
• bye bye toe

But damn, I can't find the penectomy picture I wanted to. I've put out an APB for it and I think I'll get a response - I'll share if/when I do.

Really tough viewing though I have seen worse that I presume are not re enactments but actual mid modification and I'll readily admit took me a few days to get rid of the creepy feeling that hung over me after the fact. Which was in no way welcome, wanted or enjoyable. To me its a bit like looking at a car crash victim.

I see people will often say body modification has been around since Year Dot and I know it to be true. I actually have some beautiful pictures of ethnic/tribal practise of such rites that may in technique be equally extreme . The thing is they are often beautiful or elegant in some manner and from an artistic point of view I can enjoy the expression.

I see nothing uplifting or inspiring about the human form ( or lack of it ) in the modern body modification pictures of this extreme. To me its grotesque and any reference to beauty of form or human nature belies in my opinion a distortion of the soul.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Thanks for sharing all of that! I find Dan Savage's comments especially interesting. I occasionally agree with him, but not always; in this case I don't. He's making a blanket statement that castration is never SSC, and I disagree with that. Yes, the way these guys practiced it - like he says, they were creepy non-medical professionals - was not safe, but that doesn't mean it wasn't consensual and didn't fall under the umbrella of wacky BDSM or wacky body modification.

I don't go into auto agree because Dan Savage said it but I do enjoy his candor. Its always of interest to me that he can often articulate things without controversy things that I think would get me bitch slapped across a room........smiles.
Soooooooooo some times I am dreadful and if I agree I am here secretly saying "Go Dan, Go Dan...... its Your birthday......".

Laughs......get my drift ?

 

[boz]

In an episode of the Canadian tv program "Kink" there was one person who kept their testicles in the bathroom, having had them removed years ago by someone who had worked at a veterinary clinic. Not a veterinarian, just someone who had worked there. They used whiskey, I think, for anesthetic (orally) and sterilization. Apparently there was some concern when the bleeding didn't stop, but eventually it did. She did it this way because she couldn't afford to get it done by a doctor.


Not for me.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

In an episode of the Canadian tv program "Kink" there was one person who kept their testicles in the bathroom, having had them removed years ago by someone who had worked at a veterinary clinic. Not a veterinarian, just someone who had worked there. They used whiskey, I think, for anesthetic (orally) and sterilization. Apparently there was some concern when the bleeding didn't stop, but eventually it did. She did it this way because she couldn't afford to get it done by a doctor.


Not for me.

I think for me there is a HUGE difference if body modification occurs when someone identifys with not being the sexuality there were 'born' into . Its tragic that sane people brave enough to consider the full ramifications of gender reassignment fall between the cracks and don't get valid medical assistence. Although I admit to being a little squirmish on the ideals of rib removal etc .

Having had one married friend years ago starting with gender reassignment ( MUCH more involved than simple testicle removal ) who also went to point of several feminisation surgerys ( facial , rib removal ) to please his wife and Domme only to be left a ruined human being at the end of it all as she dismissed him/her from her life. Which can happen in any relationship...... however in this case the wasn't a cat and half a mortgage to deal with he/she had largely embarked on many further surgical aspects ( sanely ) though to please the wife/Domme.

Damn if its difficult to describe these situations. My friend was to me a 'woman' and will always as long as she wishes remain to me a woman. Though for the sake of attempting to make sense I have had to add the he/she throughout.

 

[John Doe]

You know, my mom cried when she took me (at age 10) to get my earlobes pierced. She thought it was mutilation then, she still winces when she sees me wearing earrings today.

Of course, I've gotten a tattoo and another hole in one of my ears since then -- she isn't thrilled about those either.

Mutilation is one of those words that doesn't mean the same thing to different people. I'm still a fan of the idea that making body modification more socially (and legally acceptable) will make it also more regulate-able in terms of medical education and safety practices.

I live in a state where selling tattoos is illegal. This means that if you do get a tattoo here, there is no state certification hanging on the wall in the tattoo parlor. Your tattoo artist may or may not have studied blood-borne contagions, etc. Most of the state's residents are calling for legalization simply so there will be a certification process.

Maybe if voluntary castration were legalized, the people who wanted to perform the procedure would be better educated and not use dirty tools, hm?

I think 10 is too eartly to sexualize a kid by piercing her ears, but that's just me.

Tattoos are borderline. I wouln't get one myself, but I can see why someone else might be interested.

And no, I don't think it should be legalized just so it can be regulated. I don't think anyone outside of the medical field or a hospital should be allowed to perform surgical procedures. But then I'm one of the few people who still respects and trusts doctors for the most part.

 

[John Doe]

One man's trash is another man's treasure; one man's mutilation is another man's body modification.

Yeah, relativism seems like a nice idea on the surface, but I think it's stupid in many cases. this is the reason we have such laws, becasue there are people out there that are freaky enough to think it's okay to have some stranger cut off your testicles.

 

[Etoile]

Having had one married friend years ago starting with gender reassignment ( MUCH more involved than simple testicle removal ) who also went to point of several feminisation surgerys ( facial , rib removal ) to please his wife and Domme only to be left a ruined human being at the end of it all as she dismissed him/her from her life. Which can happen in any relationship...... however in this case the wasn't a cat and half a mortgage to deal with he/she had largely embarked on many further surgical aspects ( sanely ) though to please the wife/Domme.

Damn if its difficult to describe these situations. My friend was to me a 'woman' and will always as long as she wishes remain to me a woman. Though for the sake of attempting to make sense I have had to add the he/she throughout.

That's actually quite interesting. Was he not also interested in the forced feminization? It is certainly a huge subgroup, I have a few friends who are into it (and pay $15/issue for magazines and catalogs, yikes), and it's quite intense for those who are into it. I always thought that it was a mutual thing, though. Did he not enjoy it and try to go back to being male, or is he now unhappy in a female body as opposed to being unhappy in a male body?

By the way, I have never heard of rib removal as part of feminization surgery. In fact, Cher hasn't had it either, or anybody else for that matter; rib removal is pretty much a myth for all suggested purposes.

 

[Shankara20]

One man's trash is another man's treasure; one man's mutilation is another man's body modification.

Just in case anybody wants to see some of the weird shit people will do to their genitals (and a few other body parts), here are some examples from ModBlog, which is part of the well-known BMEzine website:

• puts his dick in a tube with some wasps
• this fellow cut off his arm (or had someone do it)
• I honestly don't know what's going on here (I think it's a female)
• speaking of cutting out testicles
• trans-scrotal piercing using a mayo jar as jewelry
• saline injection into cock and balls (it's temporary; the body eventually absorbs the saline)
• bye bye toe

But damn, I can't find the penectomy picture I wanted to. I've put out an APB for it and I think I'll get a response - I'll share if/when I do.

I have a fascination with the trans-scrotal piercing, but for me it crosses over into surgery and the risks are not worth it - yet

The saline injections are almost just "play" much like the urethra sounds insertions I do. There are risk, but with some training it can be done very safely. Men I know have also done saline breast injections. Having my balls whacked off in a garage is beyond me, but I understand the interest.

As you say "One man's trash is another man's treasure; one man's mutilation is another man's body modification."

I had to say something - Sister Rebecca will not let me rest if I don't.

 

[DVS]

Richard has a thread about this same thing, in the cafe. Maybe it has some different opinions.

Richard's thread

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

That's actually quite interesting. Was he not also interested in the forced feminization? It is certainly a huge subgroup, I have a few friends who are into it (and pay $15/issue for magazines and catalogs, yikes), and it's quite intense for those who are into it. I always thought that it was a mutual thing, though. Did he not enjoy it and try to go back to being male, or is he now unhappy in a female body as opposed to being unhappy in a male body?

By the way, I have never heard of rib removal as part of feminization surgery. In fact, Cher hasn't had it either, or anybody else for that matter; rib removal is pretty much a myth for all suggested purposes.

I think Etoille he/she was just emotionally shattered that at the end of a significent 'journey' to be abandoned. This as you would appreciate took place over several years. I think it was damn confusing no matter how he identified to be rejected as the 'person' he in a partnership perceived himself to be. He did identify as a woman, thats some comfort to me knowing. Would often say I was one of the few straight woman he knew that he felt related to him soley as such . I make no secret about the fact I did not like his Domme/wife I thought she was a cruel bitch and I don't mean that in a 'good way'. She micro managed every possible aspect of his life............then left.

As far as the rib removal that or partial did take place during one of his stints in Hospital. I am well out of a loop here and will take your word obviously as to its potential myth status. I know my brain is not fried ..thank Heavens.........lol so I am not even going to entertain it might be an 'acquired' fact.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

I had to say something - Sister Rebecca will not let me rest if I don't.

pardon.......omg Shank .......lol

 

[Netzach]

What the fuck is up with these guys?

If your submissive asked you to slit his throat because he'd be better off dead, would you do it because it would be in his best interests or would you take him to the hospital?

I'm sorry. I can get down with fetishes, I can agree that there's a lot of room for healthy obscure sexual needs in the world, but there is a point where relativism ends. If I had a transgender person begging for bottom surgery I'd send her/him to a dr. I would not get out the scissors.

 

[LadyAria]

One man's trash is another man's treasure; one man's mutilation is another man's body modification.

Just in case anybody wants to see some of the weird shit people will do to their genitals (and a few other body parts), here are some examples from ModBlog, which is part of the well-known BMEzine website:

• puts his dick in a tube with some wasps
• this fellow cut off his arm (or had someone do it)
• I honestly don't know what's going on here (I think it's a female)
• speaking of cutting out testicles
• trans-scrotal piercing using a mayo jar as jewelry
• saline injection into cock and balls (it's temporary; the body eventually absorbs the saline)
• bye bye toe

But damn, I can't find the penectomy picture I wanted to. I've put out an APB for it and I think I'll get a response - I'll share if/when I do.

The toe one gets me. I can definitely understand the urge, but my toes and me have a good relationship.

 

[Pure]

Etoile said I'll explain my reasoning why I think it's acceptable (when done in a sterile environment by people who know what they're doing). It's body modification, it's BDSM relationship dynamics, and it's consensual. The main mistake I see was using dirty instruments - the rest of it is medical play (and probably also edge play) which is practiced by many people. What made it "practicing medicine without a license" in this particular case?

You cannot consent to serious bodily harm. That's the law. It's there for a reason; I like it the way it is. To commit such harm will be assault and battery, among other things; it is not a defense that it was asked for.

The fact that non licensed persons are doing surgery makes it worse, because of the risk of infection and death. If surgery doesn't count, I wonder what you think 'practicing medicine without a license' includes?

Someone on his or her own can do what they like, so long as they don't become a burden: lop off a toe; blow off their head with a .45. But, in general, this doesn't confer a right to anyone else, to help out, cut the toe, pull the trigger, whatever. That is, if not assault, aiding and abetting an assault.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

It seems to me that the government is interfering in the personal sex life of a gay poly triad. The men they brought to their home were castrated voluntarily. If elastrator bands had been used instead of surgery, would "practicing medicine without a license" be included in the charges? Or is it that they were practicing mental health medicine (ie, the treatment of gender dysphoria) without a license? It just all seems perfectly acceptable to me, but they were arrested.

Also, isn't that a CollarMe profile in the pictures?

.....

Here, sweet Etoile, you and I will have to agree to disagree.

This has nothing to do with the private life of the gentlemen in question. They had a website up and they advertised. In no way shape or form can anyone consider ANYTHING posted on the internet "private" unless it is behind passwords, restricted access and locked. And even then I wouldn't bet the farm on that "privacy" being respected by the courts.

This was not consentual "play". It was consentual _surgery_. Not something minor that could be reversed if the fellows changed their respective minds. And yes, if elastic bands had been used it would still have been practicing medicine without a license.

Doctor Kervorkian assisted people who wanted to die, voluntarily. He was tried, and found guilty, as he should have been. Just because a person consents to doing something or having something done to them, does NOT mean they have given informed consent. There is a difference, and frankly, in the case of the men who got castrated, I doubt they were mentally competent enough to give informed consent. When someone says "I want this done..." is not necessarily enough of a reason to do it.

The medical profession has DELIBERATELY made qualifying for gender reassignment surgery so damnably difficult because once it's done, that's it. There is no way to re-attach Mr Happy and the Nutty Twins if you decide becoming a woman was a mistake two or three years down the road. It's forever. And I'm sorry, but three gay leathermen living in the boonies of North Carolina are sure as hell not qualified to decide if someone has really, REALLY considered the consequences of having their testicles removed.

The men who did the surgery are not the victims here, the men who came to them for castration are.

I try to be open minded about most fetishes. Sexual identification doesn't bug me, gay, lesbian, tranny, straight, bi-, try... whatever floats your boat. But the desire to cut off body parts willy-nilly isn't a healthy thing. Going tribal with scars, tattoos, piercings, that can be powerul stuff. Lopping off digits of your toes so you can wear smaller shoes??? That's not healthy. And calling it "body modification" doesn't justify it or make it healthy, any more than claiming pedophilia is a "sexual orientation" makes that okay.

I'll grant that the three guys in NC are NOT out of control, serial killing monsters or rapists or child molesters. What they did may have been consentual. But it was still unethical because they did nothing to determine if the men they were castrating were fully prepared for the consequences of castration, or if those men were fully cognizant of the irreversible nature of the castration.

I'd be very interested in doing some followup on the castrated men in a few years, to see how they feel. Will they be happy? Well adjusted? Healthy? Or will they feel like they are wounded, maimed people, victims who were taken advantage of by unscrupulous manipulators who took their money and mutilated them when they were at their weakest?

Only time will tell. But I'm not betting any one of them will be happy with what happened, 5 years from now.

 

[Guest]

Being the owner/operator of a reasonably nice, fully functional, set of testicles... I thought I would throw in my ten cents on this one..

*shrug* First off...Let me make clear that I don't give a happy crap if the people involved are gay or not... Pretty simple..Doesn't effect me... Doesn't matter to me..

Whatever their relationship... I am pretty sure that someone wanting to remove their gonads... Outside of a gender reassignment surgery situation... Is a pretty good indication of a fundamental problem..

Hmmm....From a technical standpoint however...
Simple castration.. The removal of the testicles .. Is really not a screamingly huge issue as far as surgery goes... Tomcats remove each others in fights all the time...Assorted other animal species do the same... Farmers do it in the field with pocket knives...Or nowadays with rubber bands... (but a lot of em still use the sheepsfoot blade of a Schrade pocket knife.
And no...Despite wailing to the contrary.. There ISN'T that much difference..
WIth a couple of exceptions...
Humans, in general, have a crappier immune system than most animals..
And there is that whole nasty psychological fandango....
{But....If you are volunteering to have your 'nads cut out, in a garage (or wherever else), then you probably have that whole "psychological problem" base covered already.}
*sigh*
The combination of the above is why it is such a bad idea to do this outside of a "medical" environment..
Part one is infection... Not bleeding...Bleeding scares the crap out of everyone.. But frankly.. With a simple castration.. Infection is the worry.. And it's a real serious worry too..
For the other... I'm not really sure you could get a doctor in the U.S. to remove a set of healthy, fully functional, testicles. At least not one that I might trust as being competent. Again, with the qualification of "outside of a gender reassignment surgery". More likely, the doctor would refer you to a good psychiatrist when you asked.

All that "no practicing medicine without a license" is there for a reason... And it doesn't matter how "minor" the proceedure may be... Or be regarded.

I don't know... I do know that there is that whole "You can't legally consent to an illegal act".

In the end.. And perhaps this will be regarded as cruel... *shrug* And perhaps it is..
I'd like to see the "surgeon" in question go to jail. Not because of his lifestyle choices...But because he has a potentially lethal case of criminal stupidity...
Sure, everything went fine..It always does..Right up till the first one dies of massive infection because they forgot something..
And since these fellows had enough of a problem that they chose to permanantly remove their ability to reproduce... I just hope they did so, before they actually had a chance to reproduce.

 

[Etoile]

Here, sweet Etoile, you and I will have to agree to disagree.

Actually, Geoff, you will find that my opinions are very rarely set in stone. You have made excellent points and argued them well, and I am able to see the wisdom and sensibility in your perspective. In short: you have gotten me to agree with you.