Can I enlist the help of the Lit Catholics please

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

SErious here, not trying to attack or anything I just need some help finding purgatory or the doctrine of puragtory in the Bible. I can't find it and i really need it for something I am doing, I even dug through my apocrypha{sp} and pseudopigripha{sp}. I am hitting a road block here and I need it for this weekend.

Thanks in advnace for your help

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Everything you need to know about PURGATORY.

 

[kotori]

no biblical scholar

but sixteen years of Catholic school (even if it was twenty-some years ago): I don't think those doctrine have a biblical basis. That was one of those little points that cause Marty (Luther) to take his act on the road in the first place. If memory serves. . .

(or you could just ask Dixie Lee)

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Everything you need to know about PURGATORY.

I already had all that information

I am looking for the actually biblical references to purgatory

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Re: no biblical scholar

but sixteen years of Catholic school (even if it was twenty-some years ago): I don't think those doctrine have a biblical basis. That was one of those little points that cause Marty (Luther) to take his act on the road in the first place. If memory serves. . .

(or you could just ask Dixie Lee)

thats my problem i need the biblical basis not just the cathecism and theologian basis

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

It's not int he Bible. It's one of those "Angel speaking to Mohammed" things. From the above link:

"The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: "Whereas the Catholic Church instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory..."

 

[kotori]

It's implied

These are places where it says "Pray for the Dead." Why? If they're in Heaven, they don't need your help, and if they are in Hell, it's too late. Therefore, there must be some other place where your intercession (you, the living person) will have some effect. Nominally, to move the soul up to heaven. I guess you could pray the other way too, seems equally valid: "Oh god, he was such a bastard. . ."

Old Testament

The tradition of the Jews is put forth with precision and clearness in II Maccabees. Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel, "making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (II Mach., xii, 43-46). At the time of the Maccabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead, in order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.

New Testament

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins wil be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in I Cor., iii, 11-1,5: "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved.

(or you could just wait for Dixon again--why do I bother?)

 

[freescorfr]

Re: Re: no biblical scholar

thats my problem i need the biblical basis not just the cathecism and theologian basis

There isn't one. It wasn't part of Jewish belief. In fact the Jews had very little to say about the afterlife - what happens after you die is God's business, not man's.

 

[RawHumor]

Truth be told, however, quite a bit of Catholicism (and some other religions, but the Catholics are the biggest, I think) is not biblically based, but evolved somewhere over time.

 

[Phoenyx]

These dead people weren't in hell, since if they were, they wouldn't be able to go to heaven after having been preached to (Luke 16:26). They weren't in heaven yet, since heaven isn't a "prison". So they must have been somewhere else besides heaven and hell (and also besides purgatory, but the following verses are just meant to show that the "places" one can go to after death do not solely consist of heaven or hell).
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
------------------------------------------
Without Purgatory, Paul's prayer is a little difficult to explain, in light of what we have seen above. For if Onesiphorus was not perfectly free from sins, then he couldn't go to heaven. If there's only heaven and hell, but no Purgatory, then there's no point to Paul praying for mercy on behalf of his friend, since it was already too late once Onesiphorus died - any sins that stained his soul would send him to hell. However, his prayer makes sense if the mercy Paul asks for is in relation to Onesiphorus' sufferings in Purgatory.
2 Timothy 1:16-18
The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
-------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Other things not mentioned in the Bible:

The Holy Trinity
December 25th
Saints (well, Old Testament, anyway)
Pat Robertson

 

[RawHumor]

Other things not mentioned in the Bible:

The Holy Trinity
December 25th
Saints (well, Old Testament, anyway)
Pat Robertson

I'm quite sure that you're incorrect about the first one, but the others are correct... (as was your statement about Yaya LOL)

But, I don't have the resources available to me at the moment to try to PROVE that you're wrong about the Trinity so I can't say definitively.

 

[Guest]

 

[Ms_Lilith]

.

 

[freescorfr]

I'm quite sure that you're incorrect about the first one, but the others are correct... (as was your statement about Yaya LOL)

But, I don't have the resources available to me at the moment to try to PROVE that you're wrong about the Trinity so I can't say definitively.

You do have the father, Jesus and The holy Spirit all cropping up in the NT, but the doctrine of the HS - took centuries to iron out and indeed led to the Great schism between the East and the West which still remains.

All pretty obsolete arguments these days, but good for showing off.

 

[freescorfr]

that should read Doctrine of the Holy trinity above

 

[LMT]

Catechism of Purgatory

The following is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church [1030-1032]. I hope that it helps you.

"The Church gives the name Purgatory to [the] final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned [Rev 22:5, Mt 25:21, 23]. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith [of] Purgatory... at the Council’s of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain text of Scripture speaks of a cleansing fire: [Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7].

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come [Mt 12:31]

This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: 'Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin' [Macc 12:46].

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer prayers for them [1 Cor. 41, Job 1:5]."