Calling the CMOS Ninjas

[PacoFear]

My wife's paper includes the sentence phrase "13 grams of sample were weighed." I think the "were" should be a "was" but I'm disagreeing with someone at her work, Princeton grad so, you know, I need to supply a damned reference to convince him otherwise. Can someone steer me to the right CMOS section?

Thanks,

-PF

 

[_Lynn_]

If you lose the 'of sample' your sentence is '13 grams were weighed', not '13 grams was weighed', which has something to do with the subject-verb agreement. But then again, I'm not an expert here and might have the wrong answer.

 

[lance gt]

My wife's paper includes the sentence phrase "13 grams of sample were weighed." I think the "were" should be a "was" but I'm disagreeing with someone at her work, Princeton grad so, you know, I need to supply a damned reference to convince him otherwise. Can someone steer me to the right CMOS section?

Thanks,

-PF

I believe it comes down to singular, or plural. grams, being the key word. A sample weighing 13 grams was weighed, as to how it's written, which infers 13 seperate samples were weighed.

 

[PacoFear]

Thanks for chiming in, guys. CMOS reference anyone?

 

[_Lynn_]

Thanks for chiming in, guys. CMOS reference anyone?

Is your wife writing a school paper? If so, what format?

 

[PacoFear]

Is your wife writing a school paper? If so, what format?

It's for publication in a technical journal. They do not have a defined format beyond the ones for citation. Many authors are non-native speakers and these things are often terribly written. If there were standards at one point, they're gone now.

 

[PacoFear]

My 15th edition CMOS 9.14 shows the following example:

"120 square feet is equal..."

There was a long thread partly on this subject here on the EF a year-ish ago. Can't find it.

 

[_Lynn_]

My 15th edition CMOS 9.14 shows the following example:

"120 square feet is equal..."

There was a long thread partly on this subject here on the EF a year-ish ago. Can't find it.

I've checked some areas of the CMS. Pronouns is in 5.35. Then 5.111 talks about tense.

 

[PacoFear]

Here's what I think is happening:

I think Princeton guy is following the general "ignore the prepositional phrase" rule which would lead to the conclusion ML is reaching. Here, he's ignoring "of sample" and then choosing the plural verb.

I'm saying that the subject of the sentence (the 13 grams of sample) is a single, indivisible unit. Units of measure like time, distance, and money are always singular, e.g., "Ten pounds is a lot of weight."

CMOS is silent on this?

 

[sr71plt]

I agree with ML. "Samples" is in a prepositional phrase. The subject of the sentence is "grams," so the verb for the sentence should be plural.

Paco's CMS 15 9.14 isn't one including a prepositional phrase in the mix.

 

[_Lynn_]

Here's what I think is happening:

I think Princeton guy is following the general "ignore the prepositional phrase" rule which would lead to the conclusion ML is reaching. Here, he's ignoring "of sample" and then choosing the plural verb.

I'm saying that the subject of the sentence (the 13 grams of sample) is a single, indivisible unit. Units of measure like time, distance, and money are always singular, e.g., "Ten pounds is a lot of weight."

CMOS is silent on this?

I think we need SR.



Yes, I see what you're saying.

 

[PacoFear]

Seems strange to me that it would work out like this, then:

The indivisible noun rule (or WTFIC) for things like time/distance/dollars would say:

"13 grams was weighed."

But Ignore the prepositional phrase would say:

"13 grams of sample were weighed."

 

[_Lynn_]

Seems strange to me that it would work out like this, then:

The indivisible noun rule (or WTFIC) for things like time/distance/dollars would say:

"13 grams was weighed."

But Ignore the prepositional phrase would say:

"13 grams of sample were weighed."

I don't know what rule that is, PF. Is it from the CMS?

 

[PacoFear]

Found this example, below at this website: http://blog.editage.com/index.php?q=node/321 . Of course, they don't cite any of the referred to style guides.

1. Fuel-stained soil and street waste was discovered south of the site. 2. During the building excavation, 50 tons of soil were removed from the property.

The subject in the 1st sentence is "Fuel-stained soil and street waste," with two mass nouns (soil, waste) thus the singular verb "was" is called for, correct? The subject in the 2nd sentence is "50 tons of soil," which is plural (tons of soil), thus the plural verb "were" is called for, correct?

The first sentence is slightly tricky. Although both the nouns in the subject are mass nouns, they are still two different nouns. So technically, the verb should be plural. Take for instance a sentence like "Water and alcohol are common solvents used in cosmetics." The subject has two mass nouns that are treated as distinct. However, sometimes such subjects are considered as a single unit rather than as having distinct entities. In such cases, it may be acceptable to use a singular verb, for example, "Bread and butter is her favorite breakfast." If you think of "fuel-stained soil and street waste" as one whole entity, then the use of the singular verb is fine.

According to most widely used scientific style guides, units of measurement should be treated as collective singular nouns. Thus, in the second sentence, the verb should be singular even if the noun "tons" is plural. So whether you say "15 mL" or "fifteen milliliters," the verb should always be "was."

 

[PacoFear]

I don't know what rule that is, PF. Is it from the CMS?

I think I saw it in there. Let me swing back.

 

[sr71plt]

"13 grams" is still plural. "13 grams were weighed."

What you need to do to take the ambiguity out is to switch the words around so that "sample" comes back into the core sentence. (If you diagramed the original, "of sample" would drop out of the core sentence.) Thus, a clearer rendering would be:

"a 13-gram sample was weighed."

or

"a sample weighing 13 grams was weighed."

 

[lance gt]

Seems strange to me that it would work out like this, then:

The indivisible noun rule (or WTFIC) for things like time/distance/dollars would say:

"13 grams was weighed."

But Ignore the prepositional phrase would say:

"13 grams of sample were weighed."

The problem I see, is distinguishing between the 13 grams being weighed as whole, or seperately. If they were seperate, it would be plural, but as a single unit, it would be singular tense.

 

[PacoFear]

"13 grams" is still plural. "13 grams were weighed."

Wouldn't you say that "Ten feet was measured"?

QUOTE]

 

[_Lynn_]

"13 grams" is still plural. "13 grams were weighed."

What you need to do to take the ambiguity out is to switch the words around so that "sample" comes back into the core sentence. (If you diagramed the original, "of sample" would drop out of the core sentence.) Thus, a clearer rendering would be:

"a 13-gram sample was weighed."

or

"a sample weighing 13 grams was weighed."

I like these.

 

[PacoFear]

I like these.

First one may be doable. Second is repetitive phrasing.

 

[sr71plt]

"13 grams" is still plural. "13 grams were weighed."

Wouldn't you say that "Ten feet was measured"?

QUOTE]

No, I wouldn't. I would reword for clarity.

If it makes you feel better, The American Heritage Dictionary's Usage Panel, split on your original question, with 22 percent going with the singular verb, based on an "agreement by proximity" theory. 59 percent stuck with the traditional view that the verb should be plural (The American Heritage Book of English Usage, p. 36).

 

[_Lynn_]

First one may be doable. Second is repetitive phrasing.

Indeed.

 

[PacoFear]

No, I wouldn't. I would reword for clarity.).

I would to, but I was hoping to get a "right" answer. Oi. Harder than I thought.

If it makes you feel better, The American Heritage Dictionary's Usage Panel, split on your original question, with 22 percent going with the singular verb, based on an "agreement by proximity" theory. 59 percent stuck with the traditional view that the verb should be plural (The American Heritage Book of English Usage, p. 36

A little. Makes me feel like less of an idiot.

 

[PacoFear]

Thanks gang. I'll go with the plural usage. No sense causing trouble for the wifey at work. Princeton guy is her boss's boss.

 

[_Lynn_]

Thanks gang. I'll go with the plural usage. No sense causing trouble for the wifey at work. Princeton guy is her boss's boss.

The Princeton guy, the one my answer matched? I must be smart!


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