Calling All Scots!

[McKenna]

Don't know a damned thing about the subject, but I'd be happy to console you!


C'mere

Hold me.

 

[impressive]

Hold me.

It worked!









(boobies?)

 

[oggbashan]

Removing family names from the story might help make it salvageable, as would removing any dialogue with any kind of a brogue-ish reference, unless I made the female protagonist English, then one could assume that Gaelic-accented English would be accurate.



To any MacTavish or Scot I've offended in any way, shape or form, I sincerely apologize and will work to remedy the situation immediately.

I think if you remove the surnames, you could get away with most of the story as it is. Please not 'Gaelic-accented' just 'accented'. Once you mention Gaelic, you bring out the purists like wasps from a disturbed nest.

As I said before, ask a Scot, not an Englishman with a few Welsh relations.

One has told you above not to pull the story.

It's well worth the effort to edit it slightly.

Og

 

[McKenna]

I think if you remove the surnames, you could get away with most of the story as it is. Please not 'Gaelic-accented' just 'accented'. Once you mention Gaelic, you bring out the purists like wasps from a disturbed nest.

This reminds me of a favorite Dutch saying, "Iedereen moeten altijd iets hebben om te klagen."

Everyone needs something to complain about.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think if you remove the surnames, you could get away with most of the story as it is. Please not 'Gaelic-accented' just 'accented'. Once you mention Gaelic, you bring out the purists like wasps from a disturbed nest.

Yes. I think your idea of making her English is a good one; it lets you get her into the location and time period without walking into the minefield that is linguistic nationalism.

 

[BlackShanglan]

This reminds me of a favorite Dutch saying, "Iedereen moeten altijd iets hebben om te klagen."

Everyone needs something to complain about.

I know it's frustrating, and I agree that the first poster was not very tactful. But consider this - what would be the reaction to depicting an American black man speaking with an accent out of Uncle Tom's Cabin? That's the kind of territory you're skirting, and feelings run fairly high.

Shanglan

 

[McKenna]

I know it's frustrating, and I agree that the first poster was not very tactful. But consider this - what would be the reaction to depicting an American black man speaking with an accent out of Uncle Tom's Cabin? That's the kind of territory you're skirting, and feelings run fairly high.

Shanglan

Agreed. But maybe you should read my story first before passing judgment, hmmm?

 

[oggbashan]

One thing I do know about Scots family history - many of the experts are from the US branches of the families.

I think this thread has made too much of two minor niggles about accuracy. It would be difficult for anyone, even a Scot, to write a story about Scotland using real family names without offending someone.

Now if it was about Wales, and the villain's name was Jones - It wouldn't be my branch of Jones, look-you, but one of the others...

Og

 

[McKenna]

One thing I do know about Scots family history - many of the experts are from the US branches of the families.

I think this thread has made too much of two minor niggles about accuracy. It would be difficult for anyone, even a Scot, to write a story about Scotland using real family names without offending someone.

Now if it was about Wales, and the villain's name was Jones - It wouldn't be my branch of Jones, look-you, but one of the others...

Og

-McKenna, who will never write a story about a "Jones"...

 

[BlackShanglan]

Agreed. But maybe you should read my story first before passing judgment, hmmm?

I beg your pardon, but I said nothing about your story and passed no judgement on it. My comments were about the nature of people's feelings about language in that context.

 

[McKenna]

I beg your pardon, but I said nothing about your story and passed no judgement on it. My comments were about the nature of people's feelings about language in that context.

No, but you're commenting in a thread about my story when you've admitted yourself you've not read it. And while your comments in general are valid to the discussion of sensitivity to language, I don't see what you're adding to the discussion about my story in specific.

 

[oggbashan]

The Scots are happy...

...because they beat the French at rugby, in Scotland.

I think many more Scots, highland or lowland, will be pleased about that than the few who might be slightly irritated by a couple of mistakes in a good story.

If they could beat the English as well, they wouldn't care if you called them hairy-arsed savages...

Og

 

[CharleyH]

I know it's frustrating, and I agree that the first poster was not very tactful. But consider this - what would be the reaction to depicting an American black man speaking with an accent out of Uncle Tom's Cabin? That's the kind of territory you're skirting, and feelings run fairly high.

Shanglan

Hm. Good question.

 

[oggbashan]

I know it's frustrating, and I agree that the first poster was not very tactful. But consider this - what would be the reaction to depicting an American black man speaking with an accent out of Uncle Tom's Cabin? That's the kind of territory you're skirting, and feelings run fairly high.

Shanglan

I think this is too strong for the Scots/Gaelic/accented English scenario.

In 1715 and 1745 there might have been feelings as strong as that, particularly after the savage repression that followed.

Sir Walter Scott popularised Scottish History as he saw it. Queen Victoria decided that Scotland was fashionable, and Highlanders attractive... Since then there has been a feeling that it is no bad thing to be Scots.

The difference between Highland and Lowland Scots is nothing like the differences between slave and master. For different reasons both looked down on the other but united (sometimes) against the English who were not averse to playing one Scots faction against the other...

Og

 

[BlackShanglan]

No, but you're commenting in a thread about my story when you've admitted yourself you've not read it. And while your comments in general are valid to the discussion of sensitivity to language, I don't see what you're adding to the discussion about my story in specific.

I was under the impression, from your intial post, that you wished to know why people might have been upset at the issue in your story. I do beg your pardon; I realize now that this is not the case. Humblest apologies.

Shanglan

 

[McKenna]

I was under the impression, from your intial post, that you wished to know why people might have been upset at the issue in your story. I do beg your pardon; I realize now that this is not the case. Humblest apologies.

Shanglan

Thank you for your apology, Shanglan. It's easy to overlook things, and I should have given you the benefit of the doubt that you'd honestly not seen my sentence specifically requesting an editor to help me edit my story. I believe one would have to read it, in order to be able to edit it effectively.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Thank you for your apology, Shanglan. It's easy to overlook things, and I should have given you the benefit of the doubt that you'd honestly not seen my sentence specifically requesting an editor to help me edit my story. I believe one would have to read it, in order to be able to edit it effectively.

Oh, I did see that, and best of luck there. I just didn't realize it was the only active question. I was responding to the "I'm not sure why she tossed in the bit about Lowlanders" and "Anyone want to offer comment on this one?" sections further down.

 

[Belegon]

To any MacTavish or Scot I've offended in any way, shape or form, I sincerely apologize and will work to remedy the situation immediately.

I can trace a familial connection to the name MacTavish...as can thousands of others around the globe, far outnumbering the possible number of decendents who could possibly be supported by the land that the clan once claimed as their own.

The scottish part, and in particular the highlander part, I can prove by revealing my last name and my face...the characteristics of my clan are obvious in both.

Any who wishes to claim that the characters in this story do anything other than increase the honour attached to the clan's heritage had best plan their way thru me if they intend to bandy words with yon bonny lass...and if you want to get really uppity about it, I've got a sword near as tall as I am and the strength of arm to swing 'er.

Think not because I am moral and slow to offense that I am any less the warrior...I am NOT peaceful, and you shall learn such to your own dismay.

now this...

...because they beat the French at rugby, in Scotland.

I think many more Scots, highland or lowland, will be pleased about that than the few who might be slightly irritated by a couple of mistakes in a good story.

If they could beat the English as well, they wouldn't care if you called them hairy-arsed savages...

he understands more about Scots then he lets on....or maybe exactly as much as he lets on ...I grew up in California and even I want to beat England at everything...

but my arse ain't all that hairy. not really...the rest of me is , but not my arse for some reason...

 

[McKenna]

Oh, I did see that, and best of luck there. I just didn't realize it was the only active question. I was responding to the "I'm not sure why she tossed in the bit about Lowlanders" and "Anyone want to offer comment on this one?" sections further down.

My impression was you were talking about writing accented English and when it's appropriate and when it's not, all while admitting, "I have not read your piece, and, being ignorant of the finer details of Scottish linguistic patterns in that time period, could not form any opinion on its veracity if I had."

Although I appreciate your sentiments that reinforced what Ogg said about historical inaccuracy, as well as putting in to perpsective the sensitivity around language in general (the Unlce Tom's Cabin reference,) I found it disturbing that you were commenting on something you were only familiar with in the broadest sense. To me, it would feel like going to a book discussion without having read the book. That's my sensitivity speaking, but felt I'd do myself a disservice if I didn't at least acknowledge it.

I've no doubt you're learned or at least pretty damn Google savvy, my comments (or lack thereof) were not meant to insult you, but I wouldn't have asked for advice about my story specifically if I were looking to hold a discussion of language sensitivity in general. I wanted to understand how the public comments made on my story were applicable to my story, and what I could do to improve it. My apologies if that wasn't quite clear enough.

 

[oggbashan]

Accuracy and Scots History

Overnight I have been thinking about how a story involving Scots in the past could be made historically accurate.

My conclusion is that it can't. It can be set in a mythical, never-existing, Scotland but if it is set in a real time frame someone is going to hate it.

Scottish history in the 18th and 19th centuries is a minefield for a writer and even more so for a historian.

Sir Walter Scott made Scots fashionable with the Victorians but his stories are more like the dime novels of the Wild West than the reality. His versions of Highlanders, and even more so those of other authors who followed him, are like the early Western movies where the goodies wore white hats, hit targets 100 yards away from a fast draw, shot 18 times from a Colt without reloading, no blood was ever seen on screen, and the hero would serenade his horse...

The real history of Scotland around the 1715 and 1745 Stuart risings can be seen as nearly as bloody and treacherous as Rome under the Emperors or bootleggers during Prohibition. Any name mentioned in a story set in that time is likely to arouse strong resonances with the reality.

The Brigadoon scenario is the only safe way to approach a historical story set in Scotland - a Scotland that never was, like Arthurian England.

Having said all that, the story is great as a story and the specific details could easily be removed to make it palatable to all.

Og, who still likes the story.

 

[BlackShanglan]

My impression was you were talking about writing accented English and when it's appropriate and when it's not, all while admitting, "I have not read your piece, and, being ignorant of the finer details of Scottish linguistic patterns in that time period, could not form any opinion on its veracity if I had."

Yes. I was commenting on where your first poster might have come by her strong feelings on the topic of language and how it was represented, and how those issues would relate to what she said about your story. Because I was talking about her comments and perspective, there would be no point in discussing your story line by line; her central complaint on the topic of language was not that it wrongly depicted an accent, but that it was in fact in a completely different language than the one which the characters would have spoken. That's not an issue to which specific lines or sentences of the story would be germane; it's a global issue about the selection and depiction of language and its social and literary ramifications. I discussed it in general terms without reference to your story because individual word choices aren't related to the issue the poster discussed, and because I assumed that if the poster was wholly factually incorrect - i.e., the story was not written in accented English - you would have said so.

Although I appreciate your sentiments that reinforced what Ogg said about historical inaccuracy, as well as putting in to perpsective the sensitivity around language in general (the Unlce Tom's Cabin reference,) I found it disturbing that you were commenting on something you were only familiar with in the broadest sense. To me, it would feel like going to a book discussion without having read the book. That's my sensitivity speaking, but felt I'd do myself a disservice if I didn't at least acknowledge it.

To carry on your parallel, it would be like - and indeed is informed by - comments like Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill's in "Why I Choose to Write in Irish" or Ngugi wa Thiongo's comments on his decision to cease publication in English and work in Gikuyu instead. They're not talking about specific works of literature either; they're talking about what it means to write in English, to write in another language, and to write about people speaking one language while putting their words in another. The decision not to talk about a specific book is a recognition on their part (and mine) that parts of the discussion - and in this case, it seemed to me, the parts that your first poster was concerned with - are not about word choices in individual texts, but about what language means in its social, political, and cultural contexts and how that meaning is affected by choices in depicting it. I didn't address your story specifically because to that extent, your story - so far as I know - is wholly innocent of technical, grammatical, or linguistic flaws in its depiction of language; that is, I can happily assume that it depicts the intended accent or dialect absolutely perfectly. But if I'm reading your poster correctly, that's not the issue bothering her. I think she's upset about what any story, well or badly written, does when it substitutes a dialect or version of English for what she thinks ought to be Scots Gaelic.

I've no doubt you're learned or at least pretty damn Google savvy, my comments (or lack thereof) were not meant to insult you, but I wouldn't have asked for advice about my story specifically if I were looking to hold a discussion of language sensitivity in general. I wanted to understand how the public comments made on my story were applicable to my story, and what I could do to improve it. My apologies if that wasn't quite clear enough.

I had thought you mentioned her comments at such length because you wanted to know what bothered her; to me, the question of how her comments were applicable to your story would include the question of what language, globally, she seemed to think should have been used as well as the question of what specific word choices or factual details of the story ought to be re-examined. I chose not to couch my comments as specific advice because I believe that it's quite a substantial change to a story to change the language used, and one not to be made lightly. That said, I recognized that if I was the author, understanding the global issues behind her reaction to the representation of language would help me to decide whether to pour my energies into revising my depiction of dialect or into scrapping the dialect altogether and trying something else. To me, those are quite applicable issues despite existing on a broader level than that of individual texts; in fact, I've had to wrestle with them in several different pieces now, and differing decisions I've made on the topic have substantially affected each work. I had thought that such information might therefore have been of some use to you; I am sorry that it is not.

Shanglan

 

[McKenna]

Overnight I have been thinking about how a story involving Scots in the past could be made historically accurate.

My conclusion is that it can't. It can be set in a mythical, never-existing, Scotland but if it is set in a real time frame someone is going to hate it.

Scottish history in the 18th and 19th centuries is a minefield for a writer and even more so for a historian.

Sir Walter Scott made Scots fashionable with the Victorians but his stories are more like the dime novels of the Wild West than the reality. His versions of Highlanders, and even more so those of other authors who followed him, are like the early Western movies where the goodies wore white hats, hit targets 100 yards away from a fast draw, shot 18 times from a Colt without reloading, no blood was ever seen on screen, and the hero would serenade his horse...

The real history of Scotland around the 1715 and 1745 Stuart risings can be seen as nearly as bloody and treacherous as Rome under the Emperors or bootleggers during Prohibition. Any name mentioned in a story set in that time is likely to arouse strong resonances with the reality.

The Brigadoon scenario is the only safe way to approach a historical story set in Scotland - a Scotland that never was, like Arthurian England.

Having said all that, the story is great as a story and the specific details could easily be removed to make it palatable to all.

Og, who still likes the story.

Og, thank you so much for your comments. I know I mentioned this before, but I think it should be mentioned again: You have a way of offering criticism that doesn't sting (too much) and still leaves the writer with a bit of dignity, and if not dignity, a sense of hope that all is not lost. I appreciate the constructive way you offer advice and opinions.


Shanglan- I appreciate you taking time to expostulate on your thoughts and intents. You could just have easily walked away; the fact that you didn't shows me you feel strongly about the subject, and I can appreciate and respect that. I would like to extend my sincerest apologies for not recognizing your efforts or the intent behind your words. In all honesty, my first response to your inital post was that I felt you were using this thread as your forum to address a global issue or impress us with your knowledge rather than offer advice on anything pertaining to my story (much as those who left public comments on my story were using that section as their forum to address their issues.) That is why I initially chose to ignore it. I see now that I was incorrect in that assumption, and I do apologize. I'm sorry we've gotten off on the wrong foot -or hoof, as it were- but I'd sincerely like to offer you the olive branch.


Update: I've been in contact with the woman who left one of the public comments. She has graciously offered to help me with my story, after I've edited for content. Kendo has also offered to have a looksee. I appreciate the lengths you folks are willing to go to in order to help me improve my accuracy. Thanks from the heart.


-McK

 

[3113]

Not real?

the goodies wore white hats, hit targets 100 yards away from a fast draw, shot 18 times from a Colt without reloading, no blood was ever seen on screen, and the hero would serenade his horse...

First you say Brigadoon's not real, now the wild west with white hats and shooting 18 bullets from a colt (next you'll say that they couldn't hit the target each and every time....).

You're such a poop! And I hope Gene Kelly, who's still in Scotland dancing for one day every hundred years or so, kicks your ass. Or at least wins the next rugby match for Scotland against England....

 

[oggbashan]

First you say Brigadoon's not real, now the wild west with white hats and shooting 18 bullets from a colt (next you'll say that they couldn't hit the target each and every time....).

You're such a poop! And I hope Gene Kelly, who's still in Scotland dancing for one day every hundred years or so, kicks your ass. Or at least wins the next rugby match for Scotland against England....

I bet you serenade your horse and go hunting through the heather for gay Scottish lassies.

I'll drink a large glass of single malt whisky, followed by a rye from the bartender's special bottle, to your - singing.

Og

 

[3113]

I bet you serenade your horse and go hunting through the heather for gay Scottish lassies.

Stella's the one looking for gay Scottish lassies, aren't you Stella?

And my pinto horse, Trigger, loves how I serenade him. We stop on our travels now and then to help out a small town that's getting hastled by rustlers. I play a few poker hands at the saloon run by the madame with a heart of gold. Then I skip lunch so I can meet some no-good varmint at high noon, shoot him, and attend the wedding of the new sheriff and the school marm. And then Trigger and I are on our way again....

And while we're discussing realistic depictions, which kind of Brit are you? Upper crust with the bowler hat, umbrella, stiff upper lip and accent like Prince Charles...or lower with the Dick-Van-Dyke-from-Mary-Poppins dialect and a tendency to dance and sing on rooftops?