Calling All Scots!

[McKenna]

I wrote a story set in Scotland, an historical piece of the non-consent/reluctance variety. I've had feedback recently that leaves me puzzled. I'm including it below. I'm "Calling All Scots" because I'd like an editor who could edit my story and perhaps help me make it more accurate, if need be. Sure it's an erotic piece, it's porn, but part of my bristles at inaccuracy.


Here is the first public comment:

Super hot, but innacurate: Beautifully written, but fell prey to the same mistake that pretty much all authors who write about Highlanders make; Highlanders didna speaks Scots! Highlanders spoke Gaelic, and lowland Scots wouldn't be caught dead in plaids and kilts. I realize a lot of the authors who write this Scots-speaking Highlander crap know this and are just trying to cater to the faulty expectations of readers who expect all Scottish people to say things like 'Do ye ken?', but I don't agree with pandering.

Frankly, I didn't think I was pandering, but I'm certainly willing to admit to ignorance. But first of all, isn't "Scots," Gaelic? I've heard it referred to many times -even in my linguistics classes- as Scots Gaelic. I assumed (perhaps mistakenly?) that when someone referred to "Scots", the were talking about Scottish Gaelic, or Scots Gaelic. Perhaps someone more learned or more Google savvy can confirm or deny this?

I'm not sure why she tossed in the bit about Lowlanders. I think she was trying to make a statement in general and used the public comments section of my story as her forum.


Second public comment:

Your comment is essentially correct about the Gaelic language--especially considering there are twelve recognized Gaelic dialects, of which three, Irish, Welsh and Scotish are still in common use.

However, there are some twenty-two lowland tarten patterns registared as heraldic devices in Scotland with the King of Arms.

I am Of Clan McDougal

I'm not entirely sure who or what he/she was addressing. This comment was left by "Anonymous." It has nothing to do with my story. I think it refutes the earlier comment about plaids and Lowlanders, but I'm not sure. Anyone want to offer comment on this one?


Third Public Comment:

Writer is totally ignorant of Scottish women. Dull stroy showing complete ignorance of both women and highlanders as Clan McTavish scions and students of the epoch will know.

This one, not surprisingly, was left by "Anonymous" as well. Frankly I'm posting this comment to invite any Scottish women (or men) out there to read my story and perhaps offer some constructive criticism as to how I could portray my Scottish women better.


I probably would not have bothered analyzing this as much as I am, but these are the three most recent of 27 comments on this story. If there's something wrong with my story or how I'm portraying it, I'm open to ideas on how to improve it. It bothers me that these statements (for the most part) have nothing to do with my story so much as how I'm portraying a culture. I'd rather do it accurately, or not at all.

Thanks in advance.

-McK


Edited Bit: A link to the story in question might prove helpful, eh?
For the Honour of Clan Tavish

 

[Belegon]

The first comment is both nitpicky and generalizing...Highlanders spoke scots gaelic well into the 19th if not the 20th century, but lowlanders did as well...and unless you're writing in gaelic, I think you aren't going to be "accurate" enough anyway, and then you'll have more nitpicking...I say blow that off...

the whole concept of "family tartan" is a late development anyway...almost modern. Most did not get "claimed" until after the acts prohibiting highland clothing were repealed...I could not give you the exact dates off the top of my head, but it is only a couple hundred years ago if that...earlier you weore the colors and patterns you had available, period. More likely to be recognized by the badge in your cap...

...most of what people think of as "scottish" is lowlander stuff if you want to get strict anyway...where is Edinborough? Glasgow? Stirling? All in the lowlands, technically...

I know that you crave accuracy and have a real love for the land & culture McK...but don't let people browbeat you into writing pure history. It's fiction for christ's sake!

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I wrote a story set in Scotland, an historical piece of the non-consent/reluctance variety. I've had feedback recently that leaves me puzzled. I'm including it below. I'm "Calling All Scots" because I'd like an editor who could edit my story and perhaps help me make it more accurate, if need be. Sure it's an erotic piece, it's porn, but part of my bristles at inaccuracy.


Here is the first public comment:

Frankly, I didn't think I was pandering, but I'm certainly willing to admit to ignorance. But first of all, isn't "Scots," Gaelic? I've heard it referred to many times -even in my linguistics classes- as Scots Gaelic. I assumed (perhaps mistakenly?) that when someone referred to "Scots", the were talking about Scottish Gaelic, or Scots Gaelic. Perhaps someone more learned or more Google savvy can confirm or deny this?

I'm not sure why she tossed in the bit about Lowlanders. I think she was trying to make a statement in general and used the public comments section of my story as her forum.


Second public comment:

I'm not entirely sure who or what he/she was addressing. This comment was left by "Anonymous." It has nothing to do with my story. I think it refutes the earlier comment about plaids and Lowlanders, but I'm not sure. Anyone want to offer comment on this one?


Third Public Comment:

This one, not surprisingly, was left by "Anonymous" as well. Frankly I'm posting this comment to invite any Scottish women (or men) out there to read my story and perhaps offer some constructive criticism as to how I could portray my Scottish women better.


I probably would not have bothered analyzing this as much as I am, but these are the three most recent of 27 comments on this story. If there's something wrong with my story or how I'm portraying it, I'm open to ideas on how to improve it. It bothers me that these statements (for the most part) have nothing to do with my story so much as how I'm portraying a culture. I'd rather do it accurately, or not at all.

Thanks in advance.

-McK


Edited Bit: A link to the story in question might prove helpful, eh?
For the Honour of Clan Tavish

Highland scots did speak Gaelic. Scots being one of the gaelic dialects.


I heavily reseasrc my period pieces, I even do some work for slang of the era, but really, what do they expect out of you? A lecture in linguistics? If you gave it the eighty people happy jerking or massageing whatever they got, would loose the feeling.

I'm all for accuracy in perio pieces, but if you are writing in english, for an english speaking audience, It shouldn't be a big deal. I wrote one in Ruepoe, crossing about fifty or sixty odd borders, and languages. I don't speak or understand more than a smattering of any of them.

If you want to do some twqeaking, thats understandable. On the other hand, I know your work enough to know it's highly erotic. So perhaps you should offer these folks a grammer primer and the suggestion they look up bugger off in whatever dialect they prefer?

jmho

 

[Weird Harold]

I wrote a story set in Scotland, an historical piece of the non-consent/reluctance variety. I've had feedback recently that leaves me puzzled. I'm including it below. I'm "Calling All Scots" because I'd like an editor who could edit my story and perhaps help me make it more accurate, if need be. Sure it's an erotic piece, it's porn, but part of my bristles at inaccuracy.

I'm not Scottish, but I didn't see anything grossly innacurate about the story. I did do a double-take when she compared his voice to silk but without a definite time frame, it's hard to quibble about the odds against a Scottish woman knowing what silk felt like...

As to the Scots vs Gaelic objection, I'd ignore it. The characters were communicating and that's really all that's required.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Just to add, if you're really worried about it, I would PM Oggs and Perdita. Oggs is as close to an authority on the UK's history as I recognize and Dita is very skillful in Language.

 

[cloudy]

Just to add, if you're really worried about it, I would PM Oggs and Perdita. Oggs is as close to an authority on the UK's history as I recognize and Dita is very skillful in Language.

Kendo lives in Scotland, too, I believe.

 

[Belegon]

Third Public Comment:

This one, not surprisingly, was left by "Anonymous" as well. Frankly I'm posting this comment to invite any Scottish women (or men) out there to read my story and perhaps offer some constructive criticism as to how I could portray my Scottish women better.


I probably would not have bothered analyzing this as much as I am, but these are the three most recent of 27 comments on this story. If there's something wrong with my story or how I'm portraying it, I'm open to ideas on how to improve it. It bothers me that these statements (for the most part) have nothing to do with my story so much as how I'm portraying a culture. I'd rather do it accurately, or not at all.

Thanks in advance.

-McK

*cough*bullshit*cough*

no one character is going to have any bearing on that...and if they think that Alannah is disrespecting scottish women then I ha' a need to give them a good scottish arse whooping for it. She is strong and desirable and noble.

I didn't grow up in Scotland but my heritage is as obvious as my face and I can prove it on paper as well...

 

[Stella_Omega]

I say- delete all three comments.

 

[Equinoxe]

To address the first concern, Scots is, depending upon your perspective, a dialect of English or a member of the Anglic Languages of the Anglo-Frisian Language branch of the Germanic languages. It is a fundamentally distinct entity from Scottish Gaelic (Gaelic languages not including the Welsh mentioned in the second commnet, Welsh being a member of the P-Celtic Brythonic languages and not the Q-Celtic Goidelic languages).

As for the question about Lowlanders, the Lowlands were quite culturally different from the Highlands, in that they possessed a much great Anglo-Norman (or Scoto-Norman) influence and were the seat of the Germanic Scots language prior to the 1707 Act of Union and the decided primacy of English -- which, at the time, was common, but by no means dominant, and there was some debate as to whether Scots or English would be the primary language/dialect of Scotland, Scots Gaelic not even being considered, since it was confined to an ever-dwindling portion of the Highlands.

 

[oggbashan]

Family and kinship

What you have stirred up is the Scots family pride.

If you had not used a genuine clan name, or not used a surname at all, you might have avoided some of the feedback.

Once you use a clan name you evoke particular characteristics (and clan factions).

Imagine if I wrote a story set in the US Native American tribes and mixed up Comanche and Sioux or had Plains Indians at the New England coastline? I would have experts (and amateurs) of Native American down on me like a ton of bricks.

That is the problem with being definite with names. Abe Lincoln was not at the Alamo. Nor was George Washington. That is the scale of the historical mistakes you made.

The PCs were fairly gentle compared with what they could have been. Scots are used to being portrayed with clichéd traditions since Sir Walter Scott who wrote a lot of unhistorical rubbish about the Highlanders.

The story is great. It is only the names that have caused the problem and the language - Gaelic is the language. There is no Scots language.

If you want to edit out the errors you need a genuine Scot to do it.

Og

 

[Guest]

The criticisms seem constructive to me. To those not anonymous, why not write and ask them what you've asked above? I would think they'd be glad to help since they took the time to comment.

Perdita

 

[McKenna]

I know that you crave accuracy and have a real love for the land & culture McK...but don't let people browbeat you into writing pure history. It's fiction for christ's sake!

Thank you for your thoughts, Bel. I do crave accuracy, but I also don't want to inadvertently insult someone because I write about his/her culture in a way they don't find pleasing. As I said earlier, had these comments not come one right after the other, I probably woudn't have paid much attention to them. But as they are, I felt I needed to address them in some fashion. Thank you for your reassurance.

If you want to do some twqeaking, thats understandable. On the other hand, I know your work enough to know it's highly erotic. So perhaps you should offer these folks a grammer primer and the suggestion they look up bugger off in whatever dialect they prefer?

jmho

Oh you feisty red-head! I could just hug you to pieces! Thanks for the chuckle. I did do some research for this piece, not extensive research, but a bit. If I were writing an historical essay it would have been nothing but research, but as it was fiction... I dunno. I guess I was hoping to at least convince the reader to suspend their disbelief, but if I'm not accomplishing that, perhaps it is time to tweak. Of all my stories, this was the only one I considered writing a sequel to; with the feedback I've gotten recently, I'm wondering if that's such a good idea.

I'm not Scottish, but I didn't see anything grossly innacurate about the story. I did do a double-take when she compared his voice to silk but without a definite time frame, it's hard to quibble about the odds against a Scottish woman knowing what silk felt like...

As to the Scots vs Gaelic objection, I'd ignore it. The characters were communicating and that's really all that's required.

Your comment about "silk" made me smile. Certainly something I'd not thought about previously, but definitely worth exploring further. Thanks for your comments.

I say- delete all three comments.

Tempting, but I prefer to leave them all up there. For some odd reason I feel like I'm "cheating" if I delete someone's comment. Like cooking the books or something. In a way I'm proud that I incited enough of an emotional response that they felt the need to post a public comment in the first place.




Posting this now, will reply to others later. Thank you all!

 

[Belegon]

McK;

Don't let them get ya. Ogg is right, it's a hell of a story. Playing with historical fact for the sake of story is at least as long a tradition as anything you would find in any country...I'm sure we could find examples of that in Sumerian traditions/stories.

example: Braveheart is chock full of inaccuracies and has been well-documented as such...a glaring one? See any bridge in that first battle?

I'm gonna disagree with Ogg to one level. I think his comparison to using Native American tribe names is the more relevant one. It is not as big as placing Abe Lincoln at the Alamo because Abe is a genuine historical figure. She has not been specific as to place and time enough to warrant such a comparison...it's not like Aengus in the story is claiming to be the son of William Wallace or she has Rob Roy fighting at Stirling Bridge...

 

[3113]

The PCs were fairly gentle compared with what they could have been. Scots are used to being portrayed with clichéd traditions since Sir Walter Scott who wrote a lot of unhistorical rubbish about the Highlanders.

So, Brigadoon's not accurate? Darn.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

To address the first concern, Scots is, depending upon your perspective, a dialect of English or a member of the Anglic Languages of the Anglo-Frisian Language branch of the Germanic languages. It is a fundamentally distinct entity from Scottish Gaelic (Gaelic languages not including the Welsh mentioned in the second commnet, Welsh being a member of the P-Celtic Brythonic languages and not the Q-Celtic Goidelic languages).

As for the question about Lowlanders, the Lowlands were quite culturally different from the Highlands, in that they possessed a much great Anglo-Norman (or Scoto-Norman) influence and were the seat of the Germanic Scots language prior to the 1707 Act of Union and the decided primacy of English -- which, at the time, was common, but by no means dominant, and there was some debate as to whether Scots or English would be the primary language/dialect of Scotland, Scots Gaelic not even being considered, since it was confined to an ever-dwindling portion of the Highlands.

I'm sorry EQ. I didn't realize you were still about, else I would have reccomended you with Dita & Oggs on Languages & history.

 

[Equinoxe]

I'm sorry EQ. I didn't realize you were still about, else I would have reccomended you with Dita & Oggs on Languages & history.

Thank you! I'm rarely still about, so I understand entirely.

 

[McKenna]

To address the first concern, Scots is, depending upon your perspective, a dialect of English or a member of the Anglic Languages of the Anglo-Frisian Language branch of the Germanic languages. It is a fundamentally distinct entity from Scottish Gaelic (Gaelic languages not including the Welsh mentioned in the second commnet, Welsh being a member of the P-Celtic Brythonic languages and not the Q-Celtic Goidelic languages).

Aha, thanks for clearing that up. If I understand correctly, "Scots" only refers to a dialect of English or a germanic language. "Scots-Gaelic" refers to the Scottish dialect of Gaelic. I'm going to hypehnate everything from now on.

What you have stirred up is the Scots family pride.

If you had not used a genuine clan name, or not used a surname at all, you might have avoided some of the feedback.

Once you use a clan name you evoke particular characteristics (and clan factions).

Imagine if I wrote a story set in the US Native American tribes and mixed up Comanche and Sioux or had Plains Indians at the New England coastline? I would have experts (and amateurs) of Native American down on me like a ton of bricks.

That is the problem with being definite with names. Abe Lincoln was not at the Alamo. Nor was George Washington. That is the scale of the historical mistakes you made.

The PCs were fairly gentle compared with what they could have been. Scots are used to being portrayed with clichéd traditions since Sir Walter Scott who wrote a lot of unhistorical rubbish about the Highlanders.

The story is great. It is only the names that have caused the problem and the language - Gaelic is the language. There is no Scots language.

If you want to edit out the errors you need a genuine Scot to do it.

Og

Og, thank you for putting this into perspective. Not exactly fun to hear, but certainly appreciated. I think perhaps the thing to do is remove the story entirely. It was not meant in any way, shape, or fashion as a racial slur, and as this is the second time in as many weeks that I have been accused of such, I think it's time to remove my heap from the garbage pile, as it were.

As to the historical mistakes, I can only admit embarrassment that my research was not sufficient.

Thanks for your comments as well.

The criticisms seem constructive to me. To those not anonymous, why not write and ask them what you've asked above? I would think they'd be glad to help since they took the time to comment.

Perdita

There was only one that was not anonymous, and I've already written to them.

Our opinions differ as to what was "constructive" about these comments, however. It's one thing to point out flaws, it's another to offer suggestions.

Thanks for your .02 cents, too.

 

[oggbashan]

McK;

I'm gonna disagree with Ogg to one level. I think his comparison to using Native American tribe names is the more relevant one. It is not as big as placing Abe Lincoln at the Alamo because Abe is a genuine historical figure. She has not been specific as to place and time enough to warrant such a comparison...it's not like Aengus in the story is claiming to be the son of William Wallace or she has Rob Roy fighting at Stirling Bridge...

I was making the point strongly because once you use any clan name their history is known in detail. Tavish or McTavish is very specific like Abe Lincoln or George Washington.

My part-Welsh ancestory details every person right back to the Flood and we know what each one of them did. The McTavish's would know the same.

Og

 

[BlackShanglan]

Prepare to throw rocks at the horse.

I think I understand what the author of the first PC is saying. Whether you care to consider it in your writing or not is, of course, entirely your own decision. But roughly, it's this:

A Scottish accent in speaking English is a radically different thing to a person speaking Scots Gaelic. Assuming that the author is right in stating that the characters you describe would normally speak Scots Gaelic, representing them as speaking English with a Scottish accent may appear to some to confuse those two seperate things. To draw a parallel which may be entirely incomprehensible, but which I shall nonetheless try, it would be like portraying the Irish hero Cuchulainn, legends of whom date back at least as far as the 6th century A. D., as speaking English with a stage Irish accent. While it's necessary that he speak English so that the intended audience can read the piece, and while we would by all means like to avoid the wincing decision of the young W. B. Yeats to append to the (entirely English) "The Land of Heart's Desire" the note "the actors are imagined to speak in Gaelic," depicting Cuchulainn as speaking English with a modern Irishman-speaking-English accent forms no actual connection to either the language he would have spoken or the way he would have spoken it. One might as well give him a French accent, or Spanish.

A different approach might be to work with the way the character expresses himself or herself in terms of vocabulary, cultural references in metaphor or imagery, or use of common phrases from Scots Gaelic translated into English. For instance, the preserved manuscripts of Irish legends have their own version of "once upon a time"; stories often start with "What was the cause of X? Not hard to tell." Any sort of round ornament is typically called an "apple." Heroes are often depicted as carrying a heavy rock into battle to throw; this "hero's hand-stone" is mentioned not only in battle, but also frequently in comparison, as when Cuchulainn and Ferdiadh fight and slash off chunks of each other's flesh "the size of a warrior's hand-stone." Graceful leaps or feats of dexterity frequently involve a comparison to salmon leaping, and heavy branches or beams - like the beam supporting a house's roof or the hitching-beam of a chariot - are commonly called "tree," as in "rooftree" or "chariot tree."

If I wanted to give a sense of an Irish-speaking character, some might argue that it would be better to incorporate those sorts of images and patterns of diction in plain English rather to phonetically spell out an accent that the character would not exhibit, as s/he does not speak English. Not everyone, of course, will feel that this is the right way to go, or will feel as passionately about it as your poster. But language is a personal thing, and it can stir strong emotions. I have not read your piece, and, being ignorant of the finer details of Scottish linguistic patterns in that time period, could not form any opinion on its veracity if I had. I will confess, however, that if I came across a story doing the same thing with Irish, it would annoy me considerably. It would feel disrespectful. Perhaps in that I confess myself wholly a pedant, but then I don't think that that's telling the world much that's new.

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

Balan at his awne ʒet couth.

Did someone call?

 

[oggbashan]

Og, thank you for putting this into perspective. Not exactly fun to hear, but certainly appreciated. I think perhaps the thing to do is remove the story entirely. It was not meant in any way, shape, or fashion as a racial slur, and as this is the second time in as many weeks that I have been accused of such, I think it's time to remove my heap from the garbage pile, as it were.

As to the historical mistakes, I can only admit embarrassment that my research was not sufficient.

Thanks for your comments as well.

I do not think you have been accused of a 'racial' slur but a family one. If you take those three comments in the light of Scottish family history then they are mild. They are telling you, fairly politely, that you have got some things wrong in a good story.

Those things can be corrected by being less specific, writing about a Brigadoon type of Scotland and removing family names, including in the title.

The story works well with minor inaccuracies that are glaring to a Scot but to few others. It is easily saved and deserves to be.

Og

 

[Equinoxe]

Aha, thanks for clearing that up. If I understand correctly, "Scots" only refers to a dialect of English or a germanic language. "Scots-Gaelic" refers to the Scottish dialect of Gaelic. I'm going to hypehnate everything from now on.

You're welcome. That should clear up confusion well. Scots, sometimes referred to as Lallans, is an Anglic language/dialect deriving from the Anglo-Saxon invasions and the Norman Conquest, and Scots Gaelic is a descendant of Irish Gaelic brought over with the Dal Riata.

To give a quick example of Scots, here is a poem (a translation of an old Chinese poem, actually):
Simmer days, wunter nichts---
year eftir year o thaim maun pass
or Ah gang til him whaur he bydes.
Wunter nichts, simmer days—
Year eftir year o thaim maun gae in
or Ah gang til his hame.

 

[Belegon]

I think a mountain is being made of a molehill here...

Lass, do not pull the story...

 

[McKenna]

I do not think you have been accused of a 'racial' slur but a family one. If you take those three comments in the light of Scottish family history then they are mild. They are telling you, fairly politely, that you have got some things wrong in a good story.

Those things can be corrected by being less specific, writing about a Brigadoon type of Scotland and removing family names, including in the title.

The story works well with minor inaccuracies that are glaring to a Scot but to few others. It is easily saved and deserves to be.

Og

I do understand on some level; I believe it's similar to how I feel when people who are not familiar with the American Western way of life try to write it: i.e. cowboys, etc. I've read stories where I've cringed at the inaccuracy; I feel awful to have inadvertenly made the same mistake. I have felt the same when foreigners who think they know America comment on our culture when the only basis for their "research" is Hollywood.

Removing family names from the story might help make it salvageable, as would removing any dialogue with any kind of a brogue-ish reference, unless I made the female protagonist English, then one could assume that Gaelic-accented English would be accurate.



To any MacTavish or Scot I've offended in any way, shape or form, I sincerely apologize and will work to remedy the situation immediately.

 

[impressive]

Don't know a damned thing about the subject, but I'd be happy to console you!


C'mere