California iss getting carried away again!

[jomar]

How fucking stupid.

Uh! Yoo Hoo! Usual Suspects?

How much heat do yuh suppose the engine and exhaust adds to the temp of the car?

Oh! The engine is about 212 degrees, and that exhaust pipe that goes beneath the car is prolly hot enough to start a fire.

I assume that's directed toward the CA legislators.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

JOMAR

It's aimed at anyone who buys the bullshit.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is about the climate control systems in cars, not about the engines.

 

[freshface]

This is about the climate control systems in cars, not about the engines.

Shh. Don't confuse him with facts! He's confused enough already.

 

[Belegon]

There are certain people who need to quit crying wolf... especially in the media. On all sides of debates.

I wish the news reported news instead of gossip and speculation.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

This is about the climate control systems in cars, not about the engines.

STELLA?

I know all about it. I was a civil engineer 30 years ago. I have a wall full of diplomas for all kinds of science shit. Every structure requires heating/cooling load calculations and design changes to meet or exceed what the law requires.

The idea is to decrease demand for energy.

The color of your goddamned car is insignificant because the window glass traps more heat than the paint absorbs, and the engine/exhaust system create a shitpot full of heat when the motor is running, and this heatload grossly exceeds the heat gain from the paint. Plus!!!! When youre tooling down the hiway the paint loses heat to the outside air, because the air is cooler than the paint.

Try it for yourself. Take your hot car for a drive, and when youre done the paint should feel cooler than when you started.

So the whole deal is BULLSHIT. Its a pseudo-science, al gore grab for money.

 

[DeeZire]

...I know all about it. I was a civil engineer 30 years ago...

I'm sure many people involved with the study were also engineers with diplomas on their walls. The difference is the agenda they bring to the study. Your agenda is anti-government, theirs is pro-environment. There are valid points on both sides. A 20 degree difference is a 20 degree difference, regardless of how you try to spin it.

I suspect the law won't fly, but at least there is a discussion going on, which will raise awareness of the issue. The American public is so utterly clueless, anything we can do to get them thinking about something besides what's on Extra or Entertainment Tonight is going to benefit us all.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DEE ZIRE

Let me put it another way. The folks in Fargo, North Dakota are under water. If you go there and spit in the river it wont make their plight significantly worse, but the government wants to use the crisis to tax you for spitting.

The CHALLENGER investigation was the perfect example of pseudo science until Richard Feynman soaked the o-ring in ice water and snapped it in half, to demonstrate that the material was defective during cold temps.

 

[alyxen]

For any interested, here is a PDF of the items discussed in the public workshop in question, including multiple pages of issues/questions that were raised:

CARB

 

[jomar]

For any interested, here is a PDF of the items discussed in the public workshop in question, including multiple pages of issues/questions that were raised:

CARB

Appreciate it, but I saw nothing there to support the legislation.

 

[DesertPirate]

This is about the climate control systems in cars, not about the engines.

The engines power the climate controll systems. When the climate control system is under heavy load it takes more power, generating more heat. The insulation of the firewall and floor is of significant importance there. The load on an autombile climate system is more related to greenhouse(read glass) area than color. That is basic auto air-conditioning school and hasn't changed sine the R12 days. If you notice it is harder to warm a vehicle with a large greenhouse in the winter too. The glass has almost not temp comtrol properties like a nice new house window.

I used to do A/C work and spent a large part of 30 years as a mechanic.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

For all intents and purposes, all a car does is shield you from the wind and rain. A car's insulating value is almost zero. Turn off the air and it heats up almost immediately. Shut off the heat and it gets cold pretty quick.

This thread is filled with dum mother-fuckers.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The engines power the climate controll systems. When the climate control system is under heavy load it takes more power, generating more heat. The insulation of the firewall and floor is of significant importance there. The load on an autombile climate system is more related to greenhouse(read glass) area than color. That is basic auto air-conditioning school and hasn't changed sine the R12 days. If you notice it is harder to warm a vehicle with a large greenhouse in the winter too. The glass has almost not temp comtrol properties like a nice new house window.

I used to do A/C work and spent a large part of 30 years as a mechanic.

Cool

My point is that the talk is about ways to begin to bring down the beginning temp in cars, in order to save on air conditioner loads, not about the overall heat of the whole car. This conversation might be a bit wrong-headed but it has nothing to do with the exhaust or engine block. Those things will probably be discussed as well, while the jimmybobs of the world stand by and fume impotently.

 

[Dragonlipz]

The 'roads to hell' (and California) have lost dreams as signposts and good intentions as pavement.......More blather from a generally informative, entertaining and intellectual group.....I also gotta a truck load of diplomas on my walls and my name on a patent or two (as an engineer/researcher!)
If someone wants to discuss endothermic vs exothermic values in vessels using metal for a skin - in a reasoned, measured, intelligent discussion......OOPS, MY BAD, THAT WON'T HAPPEN HERE IN THE LAND OF BROAD AVENUES AND NARROW MINDS......

I think I'll check out the bikini barista at the expresso stand and see what she'd up to......Ciao, Lipz

 

[alyxen]

Appreciate it, but I saw nothing there to support the legislation.

That likely has to do with the fact that there IS no legislation. It was an open workshop to discuss the potential impacts OF legislation, IF and WHEN it is to be brought up. Unless I am missing something major here.

 

[DesertPirate]

Cool

My point is that the talk is about ways to begin to bring down the beginning temp in cars, in order to save on air conditioner loads, not about the overall heat of the whole car. This conversation might be a bit wrong-headed but it has nothing to do with the exhaust or engine block. Those things will probably be discussed as well, while the jimmybobs of the world stand by and fume impotently.

Here are 2 for you.
1. you don't want to be in a poorly insulated vehicle. your feet can blister on the floorboard.

2. Total glass area (greenhouse) is more important than color. 2 identical cars, one white, one black. Hot (95) sunny day. Inside temp:White 115 Black 118

3 degrees falls into the realm of who cares.
I did the test myself on 2 Chevy 2 door Pickups in Las Cruces, NM in 1993 just to prove the point.

 

[DeeZire]

Here are 2 for you.
1. you don't want to be in a poorly insulated vehicle. your feet can blister on the floorboard.

2. Total glass area (greenhouse) is more important than color. 2 identical cars, one white, one black. Hot (95) sunny day. Inside temp:White 115 Black 118

3 degrees falls into the realm of who cares.
I did the test myself on 2 Chevy 2 door Pickups in Las Cruces, NM in 1993 just to prove the point.

You did prove the point - for pickup trucks. Earlier in the post, it was a 20 degree difference, presumable for a sedan. Perhaps a pickup truck cab has more greenhouse than a sedan does?

 

[DesertPirate]

You did prove the point - for pickup trucks. Earlier in the post, it was a 20 degree difference, presumable for a sedan. Perhaps a pickup truck cab has more greenhouse than a sedan does?

You will find similar results with all vehicles, I'm saying that more glass is much worse than car color for heat gain.

Plus the whole idea of politicians saying you can't have a certain color car is just asinine.

 

[Weird Harold]

You did prove the point - for pickup trucks. Earlier in the post, it was a 20 degree difference, presumable for a sedan. Perhaps a pickup truck cab has more greenhouse than a sedan does?

The 20F figure was my recollection of the Mythbusters results for two late model four-door sedans -- it might be wrong, but the episode is undoubtedly accessible through the mythbusters webpage.

I know from experience, living in the desert and driving a dark-grey vehicle, that DP is correct that the amount of sunlight getting into the vehicle rather than landing on the vehicle is the most relevant variable. Parking facing into the sun vs parking with the rear to the sun or broadside to the sun can make a ten to fifteen degree difference in the heat build up inside a car and temperatures can get a LOT higher than 113F -- I've measured temps as high as 175F in my vehicle during a desert summer and it doesn't take much more than DP's example of 95F ambient temp to get there.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

STELLA

My point is simple enough to test. Check the temp of a car on a cold day, then check it again after the engine has been on a while. I bet the temp in the car is significantly higher with the 2nd reading.

As yet no one has mentioned the heatload created by bodies inside the car. Plus how many A/H wide-bodies you pack into your van.

Pretty nearly every comment I post is accurate because I correct my mistakes as I go along. What people do with my posts is their business. Its a free country, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE WRONG, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO BANKRUPT, AND YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF.

Facts are facts. What you do with the information is not my concern.

 

[TxRad]

STELLA

My point is simple enough to test. Check the temp of a car on a cold day, then check it again after the engine has been on a while. I bet the temp in the car is significantly higher with the 2nd reading.

As yet no one has mentioned the heatload created by bodies inside the car.

Pretty nearly every comment I post is accurate because I correct my mistakes as I go along. What people do with my posts is their business. Its a free country, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE WRONG, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO BANKRUPT, AND YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF.

Facts are facts. What you do with the information is not my concern.

The problem with your "facts" is most of them are out of date or fictional.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

TXRAD

No, dear.

You and STELLA bring all your animosity for me to the table and its where you begin your appraisal of everything else. Its like: HMMM, HE OPPOSES GAY MARRIAGE SO WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT CARS IS SHIT TOO.

Youre the one with the problem.

 

[jomar]

That likely has to do with the fact that there IS no legislation. It was an open workshop to discuss the potential impacts OF legislation, IF and WHEN it is to be brought up. Unless I am missing something major here.

Appreciate it, but I saw nothing there to support potential future legislation.

FMP

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The quickest way to slip into an Albanian kind of communism is to tax or prohibit everything. It was so bad in Albania that everyone drank one brand of beer, wore the same color plastic shoe, read the same books (only the leaders books were permitted), walked to the same places, and ate the same gray fruits & veggies from leaking glass jars.

 

[TxRad]

TXRAD

No, dear.

You and STELLA bring all your animosity for me to the table and its where you begin your appraisal of everything else. Its like: HMMM, HE OPPOSES GAY MARRIAGE SO WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT CARS IS SHIT TOO.

Youre the one with the problem.

You flatter yourself way to much. I have no animosity for you per say. Actually, I could care less what you say. It's your shock value attitude and asinine way of presenting something that I don't care for. It's the shoot of your mouth and worry about the facts later way of doing things that you share with Ami.

You like to stir up the shit and see what floats to the top. That's about it for you.