Byron In Exile
Frederick Fucking Chopin
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It had to be in context, I suppose, but I totally spewed when I hit this one.RobDownSouth said:
Bush defends domestic eavesdropping.
- Thread starter Meekail
- Start date
Byron In Exile
Frederick Fucking Chopin
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Lincoln simultaneously saved the Republic, and put an end to it.Meekail said:
He was one of the most crappy Presidents the US have had.
Byron In Exile
Frederick Fucking Chopin
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I can't add anything to this, but at least I can quote it.zipman said:
Byron In Exile
Frederick Fucking Chopin
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Okay, I guess I'm done with this thread. BB started C&P'ing a bunch of junk and the whole thing went perpendicular.
If there's something that happened that I should know about then post it, or PM me (lol!).
If there's something that happened that I should know about then post it, or PM me (lol!).
Byron In Exile
Frederick Fucking Chopin
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SeanH: spot on.SeanH said:
There's a New Opium, now.
M
miles
Guest
Byron In Exile said:
You're even more stupid than anyone gave you credit for.
Meekail
Sagittarius
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Former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said on Sunday that it would not have been "that hard" for President Bush to obtain warrants for eavesdropping on domestic telephone and Internet activity, but that he saw "nothing wrong" with the decision not to do so.
Meekail
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US investigates Bush spying leak
The US justice department has opened an inquiry into how information about President George Bush's secret spying programme was leaked, officials say.
The investigation is expected to focus on how the New York Times newspaper obtained the information.
Earlier this month, the paper reported that the National Security Agency had been conducting surveillance in the US without warrants.
Mr Bush later admitted he authorised the programme after the 9/11 attacks.
He said people "with known links to al-Qaeda and related terrorist organisations" were monitored.
The US justice department has opened an inquiry into how information about President George Bush's secret spying programme was leaked, officials say.
The investigation is expected to focus on how the New York Times newspaper obtained the information.
Earlier this month, the paper reported that the National Security Agency had been conducting surveillance in the US without warrants.
Mr Bush later admitted he authorised the programme after the 9/11 attacks.
He said people "with known links to al-Qaeda and related terrorist organisations" were monitored.
Ham Murabi
Plumbing the Depths
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Meekail said:
Is there anyone here who objects to spying on people with links to al-Qaeda and related terrorist organizations?
To those so quick to criticize the president, how would you feel if the information was available regarding people with terrorist links and Bush declined to do nothing?
If these wiretaps and other technical gizmos were effective in tracking terrorists and disrupting their plans, it seems to me the NYTimes has done the equivalent of publishing attack plans for D-Day on June 1, 1944.
fgarvb1
We are in for it now.
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Comshaw said:
When on considers the trustworthiness of some of our more Liberal/Democratic and even Republican Conservative members of our Judaical branch as well as Congress...I'm not even going to think about the news media, well then yes I think George Bush did the right thing.
Anything less and one might consider taking a front page AD in a major newspaper.
Ham Murabi
Plumbing the Depths
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fgarvb1 said:
The procedure touted by comshaw was passed into law over a presidential veto - and it wasn't Bush. The executive branch sees this as a usurpation of legitimate power, and it doesn't matter who the president is.
dead.jihadist
Really Really Experienced
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there can be two types of investigations, deductive and inductive. can any of you morons who hate bush figure out the difference? you fucking retards will piss and moan no matter what the man does.
do a little research and you will find that Canada has secret courts, where the government can gather information without warrants so do the Brits and most recently the French. if the "spying" on these "evil doers" saved one american life im all for it. even the hate filled liberals who frequent this board.
do a little research and you will find that Canada has secret courts, where the government can gather information without warrants so do the Brits and most recently the French. if the "spying" on these "evil doers" saved one american life im all for it. even the hate filled liberals who frequent this board.
Cap’n AMatrixca
Copper Top
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Too bad Byron left.
I was going to remind him that Eisenhower was blasted by the Democrats for playing golf all the time. They just cannot make up their mind.
I was going to remind him that Eisenhower was blasted by the Democrats for playing golf all the time. They just cannot make up their mind.
Cap’n AMatrixca
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Don't include the French in the conversation. They know little of freedom and what freedom they've enjoyed scares the hell out of 'em.
Meekail
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Gore Wants Special Counsel to Investigate Bush
Former Vice President Al Gore, charging that President Bush's record on civil liberties posed a "grave danger" to America's constitutional freedoms, urged the appointment of a special counsel to investigate Bush's authorization of warrantless domestic surveillance by the National Security Agency.
In a detailed and impassioned speech sponsored by liberal and conservative groups on Monday, Gore said that while much remained unknown about the spying program, "What we do know . . . irtually compels the conclusion that the president of the United States has been breaking the law, repeatedly and insistently."
Former Vice President Al Gore, charging that President Bush's record on civil liberties posed a "grave danger" to America's constitutional freedoms, urged the appointment of a special counsel to investigate Bush's authorization of warrantless domestic surveillance by the National Security Agency.
In a detailed and impassioned speech sponsored by liberal and conservative groups on Monday, Gore said that while much remained unknown about the spying program, "What we do know . . . irtually compels the conclusion that the president of the United States has been breaking the law, repeatedly and insistently."
Ishmael
Literotica Guru
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There's no public support for an investigation. Gore's just grasping at straws. I think he's trying to get in a position to run again.
Can you imagine the rhetoric the countries going to be subjected to with Gore, Kerry, and Hillary all running against each other? Should be colorful.
Ishmael
Can you imagine the rhetoric the countries going to be subjected to with Gore, Kerry, and Hillary all running against each other? Should be colorful.
Ishmael
Meekail
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Area group challenges Bush's spy program
It joins ACLU lawsuit, saying a judge should decide if surveillance in U.S. is warranted.
DETROIT -- Nazih Hassan admits that he has some interesting friends, including a deported Islamic cleric and a man who says he fled the country amid harassment by the FBI.
Hassan says it's fine with him if the government attempts to eavesdrop when he talks to those friends, as long as there's a warrant.
Now Hassan's group, the Council on American Islamic Relations, and a host of others are wading into the first legal challenge to the Bush administration's controversial domestic spying program with a lawsuit filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Detroit. Amid an escalating constitutional battle among the administration, some members of Congress and advocates for civil liberties, the lawsuit seeks to have the program declared unconstitutional.
The plaintiffs also want the government to reveal the details of its surveillance.
Hassan, who is not a U.S. citizen but a permanent resident under federal immigration law, says he fled war-torn Lebanon in 1988.
"I lived in a police state," he said. "I know what it looks like. I worry we are getting close to that now."
The lawsuit, and a companion case filed by another organization Tuesday in New York, seeks to test the assertions of the Bush administration that it has targeted the international phone calls and e-mails of a small number of people with known links to al-Qaida.
The administration insists that the so-called domestic spying is not only legal but also an important component of national defense in an age of terror.
Critics say the administration can accomplish the same ends by using the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The act allows federal officials to begin electronic surveillance immediately, in crucial cases, and then approach a special court within 72 hours for official permission.
For his part, Hassan said he does nothing illegal. He only wants a judge to determine whether he should be the subject of surveillance.
"I think I have the freedom to discuss political issues, to discuss my opposition to U.S. policies," said Hassan, 36, of Ypsilanti. "I want a court to authorize such monitoring, if it is necessary. I doubt that any judge would find a reasonable suspicion."
The American Civil Liberties Union filed the suit in Detroit on behalf of several plaintiffs, including the ACLU-Michigan, Greenpeace, the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, in addition to the group that Hassan belongs to.
While none of the plaintiffs said they can produce evidence they have been spied on, they insist that given their contacts overseas, it is likely. They also say that the public record, to date, on the domestic spying indicates it is far more widespread than the Bush administration asserts.
But others think their likelihood of success in court is small.
First, the Justice Department will immediately ask that the lawsuit be tossed out on procedural grounds, including whether the plaintiffs were actually harmed, according to Peter Henning, a former federal prosecutor and Wayne State University law professor.
"How do you show harm? The cops could break into your house right now and just because you're afraid they might doesn't give you grounds to sue," Henning said.
Michael Steinberg, chief legal counsel for the ACLU-Michigan, disagreed.
Steinberg said that by legal precedent, the defendants need only demonstrate "a well-found belief that they were monitored."
If the lawsuit survives that test, the lawyers will seek extensive information about the domestic spying program.
But Henning said the government will attempt to block that by using arguments about national security to avoid answering any questions. Henning said that if it is forced to respond, the government could simply abandon the program rather than making any revelations about it.
"Unlike most legal cases, there are different avenues to win this or vindicate their interests," Henning said. "It's unlikely that the courts are going to vindicate their interests -- this is a political question."
U.S. Appeals Court Judge Ralph Guy, who stepped down in May as presiding judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, said it's a tough balancing act.
"I know if I was in the executive branch, I would push to the limits of what I thought was in the best interests of the country. I'd rather be accused of doing too much than not enough," said Guy, a former U.S. attorney in Detroit. But he added: "It's the courts' job to put the brakes on once in awhile."
Hassan says his contacts with acquaintances overseas are entirely innocent, and part of the Council on American Islamic Relations goal of furthering the understanding of Islam.
"I have some relations and communications with people who I consider friends, who lived in this country, whom the government has painted with a broad brush of extremism," said Hassan, a technology consultant.
Hassan's contacts overseas have drawn substantial interest from the government in the past. But he and others involved in the suit filed in Detroit say not only did both men not deserve the scrutiny, neither was ever charged with a crime.
Hassan says he communicates with Rabih Haddad, a Muslim cleric in Ann Arbor who was deported to Lebanon in 2003, and Islam al-Murabi, the executive director of the Islamic Assembly of North America.
The government deported Haddad to Lebanon in 2003 after holding him in solitary confinement for months and investigating his fundraising activities. His case became a cause celebre among those who feel that the government is trampling on the rights of Muslims and people of Arab descent in the wake of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.
Al-Murabi, an American citizen, said he was moving back Saudi Arabia because of what he alleged was harassment by investigators.
"Now, I am still in contact with these people," Hassan said. "I used to discuss political issues, U.S. government policies, issues related to Islam and extremism and terrorism with them, and I feel, right how, that I can not exercise this fundamental right." "If the government thinks these people pose a security threat, I want a judge to be able to make this determination, not some bureaucrat at the NSA who can abuse his power."
Brian Roehrkasse, a spokesman for the Department of Justice, said Tuesday that the surveillance is properly and lawfully conducted. "We want to reassure the American public that the FBI does not target any particular individual based on ethnic status or political beliefs," the FBI said.
President Bush defended the policy earlier this month.
"This is a limited program designed to prevent attacks on the United States of America, and I repeat limited," Bush said.
It joins ACLU lawsuit, saying a judge should decide if surveillance in U.S. is warranted.
DETROIT -- Nazih Hassan admits that he has some interesting friends, including a deported Islamic cleric and a man who says he fled the country amid harassment by the FBI.
Hassan says it's fine with him if the government attempts to eavesdrop when he talks to those friends, as long as there's a warrant.
Now Hassan's group, the Council on American Islamic Relations, and a host of others are wading into the first legal challenge to the Bush administration's controversial domestic spying program with a lawsuit filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Detroit. Amid an escalating constitutional battle among the administration, some members of Congress and advocates for civil liberties, the lawsuit seeks to have the program declared unconstitutional.
The plaintiffs also want the government to reveal the details of its surveillance.
Hassan, who is not a U.S. citizen but a permanent resident under federal immigration law, says he fled war-torn Lebanon in 1988.
"I lived in a police state," he said. "I know what it looks like. I worry we are getting close to that now."
The lawsuit, and a companion case filed by another organization Tuesday in New York, seeks to test the assertions of the Bush administration that it has targeted the international phone calls and e-mails of a small number of people with known links to al-Qaida.
The administration insists that the so-called domestic spying is not only legal but also an important component of national defense in an age of terror.
Critics say the administration can accomplish the same ends by using the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The act allows federal officials to begin electronic surveillance immediately, in crucial cases, and then approach a special court within 72 hours for official permission.
For his part, Hassan said he does nothing illegal. He only wants a judge to determine whether he should be the subject of surveillance.
"I think I have the freedom to discuss political issues, to discuss my opposition to U.S. policies," said Hassan, 36, of Ypsilanti. "I want a court to authorize such monitoring, if it is necessary. I doubt that any judge would find a reasonable suspicion."
The American Civil Liberties Union filed the suit in Detroit on behalf of several plaintiffs, including the ACLU-Michigan, Greenpeace, the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, in addition to the group that Hassan belongs to.
While none of the plaintiffs said they can produce evidence they have been spied on, they insist that given their contacts overseas, it is likely. They also say that the public record, to date, on the domestic spying indicates it is far more widespread than the Bush administration asserts.
But others think their likelihood of success in court is small.
First, the Justice Department will immediately ask that the lawsuit be tossed out on procedural grounds, including whether the plaintiffs were actually harmed, according to Peter Henning, a former federal prosecutor and Wayne State University law professor.
"How do you show harm? The cops could break into your house right now and just because you're afraid they might doesn't give you grounds to sue," Henning said.
Michael Steinberg, chief legal counsel for the ACLU-Michigan, disagreed.
Steinberg said that by legal precedent, the defendants need only demonstrate "a well-found belief that they were monitored."
If the lawsuit survives that test, the lawyers will seek extensive information about the domestic spying program.
But Henning said the government will attempt to block that by using arguments about national security to avoid answering any questions. Henning said that if it is forced to respond, the government could simply abandon the program rather than making any revelations about it.
"Unlike most legal cases, there are different avenues to win this or vindicate their interests," Henning said. "It's unlikely that the courts are going to vindicate their interests -- this is a political question."
U.S. Appeals Court Judge Ralph Guy, who stepped down in May as presiding judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, said it's a tough balancing act.
"I know if I was in the executive branch, I would push to the limits of what I thought was in the best interests of the country. I'd rather be accused of doing too much than not enough," said Guy, a former U.S. attorney in Detroit. But he added: "It's the courts' job to put the brakes on once in awhile."
Hassan says his contacts with acquaintances overseas are entirely innocent, and part of the Council on American Islamic Relations goal of furthering the understanding of Islam.
"I have some relations and communications with people who I consider friends, who lived in this country, whom the government has painted with a broad brush of extremism," said Hassan, a technology consultant.
Hassan's contacts overseas have drawn substantial interest from the government in the past. But he and others involved in the suit filed in Detroit say not only did both men not deserve the scrutiny, neither was ever charged with a crime.
Hassan says he communicates with Rabih Haddad, a Muslim cleric in Ann Arbor who was deported to Lebanon in 2003, and Islam al-Murabi, the executive director of the Islamic Assembly of North America.
The government deported Haddad to Lebanon in 2003 after holding him in solitary confinement for months and investigating his fundraising activities. His case became a cause celebre among those who feel that the government is trampling on the rights of Muslims and people of Arab descent in the wake of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.
Al-Murabi, an American citizen, said he was moving back Saudi Arabia because of what he alleged was harassment by investigators.
"Now, I am still in contact with these people," Hassan said. "I used to discuss political issues, U.S. government policies, issues related to Islam and extremism and terrorism with them, and I feel, right how, that I can not exercise this fundamental right." "If the government thinks these people pose a security threat, I want a judge to be able to make this determination, not some bureaucrat at the NSA who can abuse his power."
Brian Roehrkasse, a spokesman for the Department of Justice, said Tuesday that the surveillance is properly and lawfully conducted. "We want to reassure the American public that the FBI does not target any particular individual based on ethnic status or political beliefs," the FBI said.
President Bush defended the policy earlier this month.
"This is a limited program designed to prevent attacks on the United States of America, and I repeat limited," Bush said.
M
miles
Guest
Cap’n AMatrixca
Copper Top
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2005
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If you are calling to Pakistan, Iran, Syria, you name, you have ZERO expectation of privacy, so why get your panties in a wad over the NSA chasing down the bad guys? Hell, if the Clinton administration hadn't silenced the Able-Danger team, we could have stopped Atta and maybe 9-11, giving Bush no pretext to invade. Hell, it might even have made Clinton enough of a hero to have garnered Al Gore his home state...
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